Easy PAN PAN "Low Fuel" LGW 1/3/15
Easy PAN PAN "Low Fuel" LGW 1/3/15
Just a little note if they're to read this to say job very well done to the lads calm way of dealing with what was an awful 10 minute spell in LGW yesterday evening around 1800z. It was EZY32KL from Basel, or EZY75PR from Prague or both (think is was the former).
I was holding at WILLO when I heard two easy's had just done a go around after one another (might have been a windshear escape manoeuvres). One declared 'min fuel' straight away and asked for wx at STN and LGW..ATC was very good too as you'd expect, although she did keep forgetting to give them the updated wind when they asked for the weather (cloud layer and vis was never going to be a factor to be fair), which was getting on my nerves so must have been getting on theirs. Before long with lots of A/c in and around the area, the EJ declared a PAN in a calm but assertive manner.
I was on a 8 mile final at this point and there was a decent CB 4 miles south of LGW and with the wind at that altitude, it was obviously right over the field on their approach. I was expecting to be taken off the approach to allow the EJ in, and even though I'm loco Irish, I would have suggested the same, however the only path at the time that was clear of the weather for me was the approach path. I in fact did the landing much to the subtle annoyance of my 300 hour FO who was PF, and it was sporty to stay the least even when I landed.
In any case, I fly EJ to my base of work each week, and will continue to do so. Great, professional job by all.
I was holding at WILLO when I heard two easy's had just done a go around after one another (might have been a windshear escape manoeuvres). One declared 'min fuel' straight away and asked for wx at STN and LGW..ATC was very good too as you'd expect, although she did keep forgetting to give them the updated wind when they asked for the weather (cloud layer and vis was never going to be a factor to be fair), which was getting on my nerves so must have been getting on theirs. Before long with lots of A/c in and around the area, the EJ declared a PAN in a calm but assertive manner.
I was on a 8 mile final at this point and there was a decent CB 4 miles south of LGW and with the wind at that altitude, it was obviously right over the field on their approach. I was expecting to be taken off the approach to allow the EJ in, and even though I'm loco Irish, I would have suggested the same, however the only path at the time that was clear of the weather for me was the approach path. I in fact did the landing much to the subtle annoyance of my 300 hour FO who was PF, and it was sporty to stay the least even when I landed.
In any case, I fly EJ to my base of work each week, and will continue to do so. Great, professional job by all.
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Maybe a little extra fuel in the back pocket if the conditions were as forecast?
1 go around really shouldn't create a pan (every approach go around minded etc)
No saying they were on fumes, company procedures blah blah blah
1 go around really shouldn't create a pan (every approach go around minded etc)
No saying they were on fumes, company procedures blah blah blah
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I in fact did the landing much to the subtle annoyance of my 300 hour FO who was PF, and it was sporty to stay the least even when I landed.
I don't want to distract from the thread, but you have, inadvertently, invited a response. Working for who you say it could well be you also did not have too much extra fuel. Thus a G/A would not be happy event. Heavy windshear days are not the time for a newbie to practice what might have been their first exposure to such an encounter. That's what captains are paid for; one to decide, second to perform when necessary. The newbie should have been grateful to observe & learn. But I do like the confidence to want to have a go.
Well done.
I don't want to distract from the thread, but you have, inadvertently, invited a response. Working for who you say it could well be you also did not have too much extra fuel. Thus a G/A would not be happy event. Heavy windshear days are not the time for a newbie to practice what might have been their first exposure to such an encounter. That's what captains are paid for; one to decide, second to perform when necessary. The newbie should have been grateful to observe & learn. But I do like the confidence to want to have a go.
Well done.
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Could be confidence, but also arrogance or ignorance.
Still hours are no cast iron protection from the weather ATC or tech malfunction, just a greater capacity and understanding to deal with it.
You never stop learning and banking what you learn.
Still hours are no cast iron protection from the weather ATC or tech malfunction, just a greater capacity and understanding to deal with it.
You never stop learning and banking what you learn.
Could be confidence, but also arrogance or ignorance.
The copilot in this case is clearly arrogant and the training department responsible for his induction and line training should have picked this early in his training and sorted him out.
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Yes, well, you read a lot into "subtle annoyance"!
What terrifies me, as a passenger on FR next week, is the thought that the FO (aka reserve Captain) has only 300 hours, which is a lot fewer than I've got, and I know my limitations extremely well.
The fact that the Captain felt it necessary to take charge for a landing that was going to be "sporty" illustrates my concern perfectly.
How did we ever get to this point in the industry? I believe, and have always believed that the minimums that we and others applied in the olden days, eg 1500 relevant hours or more for an FO, and even then we had a third pilot until the new FO was deemed capable, were the right ones.
I know, I know, simulators are wonderful, things have changed, bean-counters rule. So why did the OP feel the need to take over? Would it not have been better to monitor the situation with people calling PAN etc, plan what to do if forced into a GA and so on, while the FO flew the aircraft? Only if he had confidence in the FO. And if he didn't have that confidence, why should I?
Ah well, thread drift, just an observation, I can't turn the clock back. But it's a pity the regulators didn't take their responsibilities seriously when robust regulation could have saved the day.
What terrifies me, as a passenger on FR next week, is the thought that the FO (aka reserve Captain) has only 300 hours, which is a lot fewer than I've got, and I know my limitations extremely well.
The fact that the Captain felt it necessary to take charge for a landing that was going to be "sporty" illustrates my concern perfectly.
How did we ever get to this point in the industry? I believe, and have always believed that the minimums that we and others applied in the olden days, eg 1500 relevant hours or more for an FO, and even then we had a third pilot until the new FO was deemed capable, were the right ones.
I know, I know, simulators are wonderful, things have changed, bean-counters rule. So why did the OP feel the need to take over? Would it not have been better to monitor the situation with people calling PAN etc, plan what to do if forced into a GA and so on, while the FO flew the aircraft? Only if he had confidence in the FO. And if he didn't have that confidence, why should I?
Ah well, thread drift, just an observation, I can't turn the clock back. But it's a pity the regulators didn't take their responsibilities seriously when robust regulation could have saved the day.
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True story.
Recently landing in large ME airport with ex RYR CPT (ex cadet, SFI, TRI) blowing dust, wind outside of F/O limits.
"Sorry Gert (name changed to protect my F/O) I'll have to do the landing"
"But CPT H1 At my old airline I was a etc etc etc,"
"Sorry Gert, I don't make the rules, I know you are very well qualified, but I am compelled to do the landing"
Alllllll the way down the approach he chipped away, until at mins where he went quiet as I landed a 74 mtr 250 tonne tube on the centre line in 30-G40 of xwind.
I asked as we taxied in how much time on the 777 he had and how many landings he'd done. "22hrs and 4 landings"
"That's why I'm the Capt, and you are the F/O, not because you are ANY less capable than me, but because on this type I've got a heck of a lot more experience"
To his credit he understood the point, sometimes the Captain actually has to be the Captain...buggy fluffy CRM or otherwise, and I'm sure when he was a RYR 300hr hero he was also easily disappointed....plus he was Dutch
the last point added for comic effect...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M
Recently landing in large ME airport with ex RYR CPT (ex cadet, SFI, TRI) blowing dust, wind outside of F/O limits.
"Sorry Gert (name changed to protect my F/O) I'll have to do the landing"
"But CPT H1 At my old airline I was a etc etc etc,"
"Sorry Gert, I don't make the rules, I know you are very well qualified, but I am compelled to do the landing"
Alllllll the way down the approach he chipped away, until at mins where he went quiet as I landed a 74 mtr 250 tonne tube on the centre line in 30-G40 of xwind.
I asked as we taxied in how much time on the 777 he had and how many landings he'd done. "22hrs and 4 landings"
"That's why I'm the Capt, and you are the F/O, not because you are ANY less capable than me, but because on this type I've got a heck of a lot more experience"
To his credit he understood the point, sometimes the Captain actually has to be the Captain...buggy fluffy CRM or otherwise, and I'm sure when he was a RYR 300hr hero he was also easily disappointed....plus he was Dutch
the last point added for comic effect...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M
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Recently landing in large ME airport with ex RYR CPT (ex cadet, SFI, TRI) blowing dust, wind outside of F/O limits.
"Sorry Gert (name changed to protect my F/O) I'll have to do the landing"
"But CPT H1 At my old airline I was a etc etc etc,"
"Sorry Gert, I don't make the rules, I know you are very well qualified, but I am compelled to do the landing"
Alllllll the way down the approach he chipped away, until at mins where he went quiet as I landed a 74 mtr 250 tonne tube on the centre line in 30-G40 of xwind.
I asked as we taxied in how much time on the 777 he had and how many landings he'd done. "22hrs and 4 landings"
"That's why I'm the Capt, and you are the F/O, not because you are ANY less capable than me, but because on this type I've got a heck of a lot more experience"
"Sorry Gert (name changed to protect my F/O) I'll have to do the landing"
"But CPT H1 At my old airline I was a etc etc etc,"
"Sorry Gert, I don't make the rules, I know you are very well qualified, but I am compelled to do the landing"
Alllllll the way down the approach he chipped away, until at mins where he went quiet as I landed a 74 mtr 250 tonne tube on the centre line in 30-G40 of xwind.
I asked as we taxied in how much time on the 777 he had and how many landings he'd done. "22hrs and 4 landings"
"That's why I'm the Capt, and you are the F/O, not because you are ANY less capable than me, but because on this type I've got a heck of a lot more experience"
It does not reflect well on this gentleman's judgement, that he feels he knows better than the rules, just because he used to be blah blah blah. Furthermore with that level of experience on type he should darn well know better. Sounds like a menace in the air
UNLESS, of course, there is another side to the story.....
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Sully was generous enough to point out he flew the a/c because his FO had more experience on type and hence was more familiar with QRH and engine relight procedures.Or was it that Skiles just recently got his type rating, and therefore knew theQRH better. Sorry for the thread drift, but that's a capable captain. Im impressed with captains who praise their fellow professionals. If you don't, and if you feel you're acting like a TRI, without a safety pilot, maybe you're working for the wrong outfit.
Last edited by deptrai; 2nd Mar 2015 at 19:24.
Wow, strange this has come back to bite me on the bum a bit. Although I did forget you need to explain everything on prune in minute detail before people start getting their knickers in a twist. Here's more info for those trying to make a case against the way I operate.
I got the wx at LGW at 30 mins before arrival and it gave something like 260/14 with 10k F015 etc...so this was way within the limits of the FO I was flying with. When I heard from LGW director to expect a hold, I then got the weather again to see in 30 mins it had changed to give similar wind with 30kt gust 6k vis and WS reported on final. I then heard the easyjet have all his issues, so it was only then I decided to do the landing. We were all keen once don't forget, so lets take it easy on my FO.
I also explained to him after engine shutdown on stand, that that's just the way it goes, he'll have plenty of landings to do in his career. He perfectly understood.
FYI, I landed with +6000kg, my Final Reserve and alternate were 2400kg. As with all flight plans we had a minimum fuel figure.. I took more- so at no time was I in a situation I hadn't planned for or expected 3 hours earlier. Say what you want about me etc, the fact was I had close to 90 minutes hold fuel (which of course I would have allocated a large portion to the minimum 2400kg reserves if I wanted to divert), hope now you all don't accuse me of being inefficient and carrying too much. Won't be receiving a call from anyone about taking extra fuel, never have - never will...my final decision and that's it.
I got the wx at LGW at 30 mins before arrival and it gave something like 260/14 with 10k F015 etc...so this was way within the limits of the FO I was flying with. When I heard from LGW director to expect a hold, I then got the weather again to see in 30 mins it had changed to give similar wind with 30kt gust 6k vis and WS reported on final. I then heard the easyjet have all his issues, so it was only then I decided to do the landing. We were all keen once don't forget, so lets take it easy on my FO.
I also explained to him after engine shutdown on stand, that that's just the way it goes, he'll have plenty of landings to do in his career. He perfectly understood.
FYI, I landed with +6000kg, my Final Reserve and alternate were 2400kg. As with all flight plans we had a minimum fuel figure.. I took more- so at no time was I in a situation I hadn't planned for or expected 3 hours earlier. Say what you want about me etc, the fact was I had close to 90 minutes hold fuel (which of course I would have allocated a large portion to the minimum 2400kg reserves if I wanted to divert), hope now you all don't accuse me of being inefficient and carrying too much. Won't be receiving a call from anyone about taking extra fuel, never have - never will...my final decision and that's it.
