Mid-air collisions too rare to worry about!
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Don't be too ready to laugh, barit. I once flew with an FO (now a widebody captain) who insisted that if we flew 1 mile right offset outbound, we'd have to fly 1 mile left on the way back.
Interestingly, my only two close encounters occurred during primary flight training - never one since (knock wood!)
One was primarily a comm error, and in the airport pattern. We did a practice go-around, and noticed another Cessna at the hold line as we flew down the runway. Climbed out, turned X-wind, turned downwind, and as we rolled the 152's wing level - surprise - there was that "other" plane - also rolling onto downwind 150 ft. away at our altitude. We did a 360 away from the other plane to come back on downwind with reasonable spacing behind him. Turned out he had been on an outdated CTAF frequency, so we never heard his position calls.
In that one case, I had that "sixth-sense" hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck feeling, due to the lack of any radio calls, and was watching for the other plane all through climbout and x-wind legs. Even said to my CFI, "I can't see that other plane anymore - did he take off?" And even so....
The other was nearby in the practice area (but not the pattern) - practicing a tight spiral descent, and suddenly we were face-to-face with a small twin in cruise 100 ft. above us - 15 seconds earlier and we'd have been in the previous turn of the spiral - at his altitude...
I live about 6 blocks from where the wreckage fell in this one: mid-air collision of 2 private planes over the city of denver. (you can ignore the conspiracy-buff BS. The report is otherwise factually correct) It was in a VFR corridor between the foothills of the Rockies and the KDEN Class B, so heavily travelled.
My take-away is that - regardless of theory and statistics - eternal vigilance will reduce the number of near collisions overall, and reducing the number of near-collisions overall will reduce the number of near-collisions where "near" is within the wingspan of the aircraft.
One was primarily a comm error, and in the airport pattern. We did a practice go-around, and noticed another Cessna at the hold line as we flew down the runway. Climbed out, turned X-wind, turned downwind, and as we rolled the 152's wing level - surprise - there was that "other" plane - also rolling onto downwind 150 ft. away at our altitude. We did a 360 away from the other plane to come back on downwind with reasonable spacing behind him. Turned out he had been on an outdated CTAF frequency, so we never heard his position calls.
In that one case, I had that "sixth-sense" hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck feeling, due to the lack of any radio calls, and was watching for the other plane all through climbout and x-wind legs. Even said to my CFI, "I can't see that other plane anymore - did he take off?" And even so....
The other was nearby in the practice area (but not the pattern) - practicing a tight spiral descent, and suddenly we were face-to-face with a small twin in cruise 100 ft. above us - 15 seconds earlier and we'd have been in the previous turn of the spiral - at his altitude...
I live about 6 blocks from where the wreckage fell in this one: mid-air collision of 2 private planes over the city of denver. (you can ignore the conspiracy-buff BS. The report is otherwise factually correct) It was in a VFR corridor between the foothills of the Rockies and the KDEN Class B, so heavily travelled.
My take-away is that - regardless of theory and statistics - eternal vigilance will reduce the number of near collisions overall, and reducing the number of near-collisions overall will reduce the number of near-collisions where "near" is within the wingspan of the aircraft.
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Well, if we're going to tell 'war-ies'... one of the more sobering near misses I had was quite some time ago in a C130. We were on an IFR flight plan (and IMC) between Phan Rang and Vung Tau at around 8,000' and flying at 250 knots. Somewhere in the cruise, we flew clear of cloud... if find a South Vietnamese Air Force C47 about three miles in front of us - and I mean exactly in front of us! - doing about 120k.
We found out later that he had not lodged a flight plan, but his track keeping was superb.
If we hadn't broken clear of cloud when we did, I really don't know if we'd have spotted him in time and I suspect we'd have had a rather eventful radome to rudder meeting with a roundabout 130k closing speed, which wouldn't have been pretty for either party.
We manoeuvred just enough to miss him and wagged out fingers (or was it finger singular?) at two very surprised faces as we passed them.
We found out later that he had not lodged a flight plan, but his track keeping was superb.
If we hadn't broken clear of cloud when we did, I really don't know if we'd have spotted him in time and I suspect we'd have had a rather eventful radome to rudder meeting with a roundabout 130k closing speed, which wouldn't have been pretty for either party.
We manoeuvred just enough to miss him and wagged out fingers (or was it finger singular?) at two very surprised faces as we passed them.
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Like all accident stats, there are thousands of close calls for every midair. The reason we don't report the close calls is mainly because we don't even see the other guy. I am convinced that the vast majority of close calls go unnoticed by either crew, so for every one you do see, there must have been dozens you did not see. I base this on the fact that whenever I have been able to identify the other airplane and have asked the crew, they did not see me. Maybe I am paranoid and have a more energetic look out going when I fly, but I sure see a lot of other airplanes and I don't call it a close call unless I have had to maneuver to avoid the other guy or we pass within 100 feet or so. If we were clearly going to miss each other, I don't worry about it.
Don't rely on TCAS. The other guy might not have a transponder or might not have it turned on. There is plenty of light airplane traffic around close to and sometimes inside your protected airspace, in VFR or marginal VFR especially. I was flying out of LAX in a Cessna 310, the transponder was inop and I was VFR. As I climbed I saw a FEDEX Dash 8 or similar flying at around 8000 crossing my path left to right, very close. I had to level off or I would have flown right into him, and intended to pass a few hundred feet below him. I was looking up, to make sure I had clearance, and as I passed under him I saw the FO look around and see me. I could almost see the surprise on his face, and before he totally disappeared his airplane rotated violently up, to avoid what must have been a frightening sight, since he had no idea I had him in sight and was already leveled off. I was glad he was not flying passengers, or else there would have been stories in the LA Times the next day. So what value your TCAS there? How effective is your electronic protections? Do you seriously think that replacing the Mk 1 eyeball with a box of tricks is a good idea? BTW, birds don't have TCAS.
A buddy of mine told me a story about a French glider instructor he was flying with in the south of France. Trying to impress the instructor, he called every other airplane that he was able to see as traffic. In every case the instructor replied "and what about the other one?" So my buddy intensified his efforts to see the "other one" and when he saw it, he called it too.
On the ground, he remarked to the French chap that he must have exceptional eyesight, since he was able to see more airplanes than my buddy could, and the instructor replied that he did not actually see the "other one", but knew that there must always be one out there. It is not the airplane you can see that is going to get you; it is the one you don't see!
We NEED to improve our lookout. We MUST be more vigilant. As a group, we are doing a pisspoor job and HAVE TO do better.
After 30 years in the airline business I know that lookout is worse there than any other field of aviation, and most of the readers of this forum are airline pilots, so yes, I am pointing at you.
Don't rely on TCAS. The other guy might not have a transponder or might not have it turned on. There is plenty of light airplane traffic around close to and sometimes inside your protected airspace, in VFR or marginal VFR especially. I was flying out of LAX in a Cessna 310, the transponder was inop and I was VFR. As I climbed I saw a FEDEX Dash 8 or similar flying at around 8000 crossing my path left to right, very close. I had to level off or I would have flown right into him, and intended to pass a few hundred feet below him. I was looking up, to make sure I had clearance, and as I passed under him I saw the FO look around and see me. I could almost see the surprise on his face, and before he totally disappeared his airplane rotated violently up, to avoid what must have been a frightening sight, since he had no idea I had him in sight and was already leveled off. I was glad he was not flying passengers, or else there would have been stories in the LA Times the next day. So what value your TCAS there? How effective is your electronic protections? Do you seriously think that replacing the Mk 1 eyeball with a box of tricks is a good idea? BTW, birds don't have TCAS.
A buddy of mine told me a story about a French glider instructor he was flying with in the south of France. Trying to impress the instructor, he called every other airplane that he was able to see as traffic. In every case the instructor replied "and what about the other one?" So my buddy intensified his efforts to see the "other one" and when he saw it, he called it too.
On the ground, he remarked to the French chap that he must have exceptional eyesight, since he was able to see more airplanes than my buddy could, and the instructor replied that he did not actually see the "other one", but knew that there must always be one out there. It is not the airplane you can see that is going to get you; it is the one you don't see!
We NEED to improve our lookout. We MUST be more vigilant. As a group, we are doing a pisspoor job and HAVE TO do better.
After 30 years in the airline business I know that lookout is worse there than any other field of aviation, and most of the readers of this forum are airline pilots, so yes, I am pointing at you.
Not too many planes make it above FL450 so call it 21 million cubic miles of airspace.
Big Sky works well over Montana but the problem is most of those planes want to go to MIA/south Florida, ATL, the nightmare airspace from BWI to BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX or the SFO/OAK/bay area. Say there are 10,000 airliners/freighters/corp. jets in the US (just guessing.) So you'd think everyone gets 210 cubic miles of air but you're lucky to get 3 miles in trail at a busy airport.
Big Sky works well over Montana but the problem is most of those planes want to go to MIA/south Florida, ATL, the nightmare airspace from BWI to BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX or the SFO/OAK/bay area. Say there are 10,000 airliners/freighters/corp. jets in the US (just guessing.) So you'd think everyone gets 210 cubic miles of air but you're lucky to get 3 miles in trail at a busy airport.
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The original post doesn't belong in a professional pilot forum.
Its existence questions whether the periodic medical check should include a mental state evaluation, the answer is obvious. Warp
Its existence questions whether the periodic medical check should include a mental state evaluation, the answer is obvious. Warp
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Separation? not always!
Filed an IFR flight plan to go to Austin Executive from St. Petersburg Florida in a light plane. Nice day. Bimbling along, expecting the enroute controller would be looking after me......
When another aircraft appeared crossing my bow, and not very far away at all. I immediately complained to the controller, why didn't you tell me about that traffic I nearly ran into?
If conditions are VFR, madam, he replied, you have to look out for yourself.....
When another aircraft appeared crossing my bow, and not very far away at all. I immediately complained to the controller, why didn't you tell me about that traffic I nearly ran into?
If conditions are VFR, madam, he replied, you have to look out for yourself.....
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Just out of curiosity what Class of Airspace were you in at the time. If you do not recall could you look it up please.
Might make for an interesting example down here!
J
Might make for an interesting example down here!
J
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sorry, Jabawocky, unable! it was probably unrestricted, this was years ago!
anyone familiar with the route and current could probably answer your question. If anyone was in the wrong, it was probably me, because a similar thing happened near Atlanta, and the controller in that case when I squawked about conflicting traffic said sorry, he was too busy to tell me about it!
In both cases, it was VFR. And in both cases, I didn't see the opposition until quite late.
Moral of the story, look out for yourself!
anyone familiar with the route and current could probably answer your question. If anyone was in the wrong, it was probably me, because a similar thing happened near Atlanta, and the controller in that case when I squawked about conflicting traffic said sorry, he was too busy to tell me about it!
In both cases, it was VFR. And in both cases, I didn't see the opposition until quite late.
Moral of the story, look out for yourself!
My first close call was recovering from a PFL with instructor in the middle of nowhere in particular. I had added power, turned off carb heat, trimmed out and had a look around a few hundred feet AGL to see off my right wingtip another highwing that I was about to climb in front of.
I lowered the nose and the right side got all pernickity about what the H... was I doing??? Said there was another airplane. WHERE ??? Over there pointing to the right wing that blocked the instructors view -- Whereupon the left ashtray bounced off the ceiling as the instructor pointed the nose straight down from a few hundred feet up
Started flying again a few years ago after a long hiatus -- now there's all sorts of close encounters. In a high wing in cruise, I like to add a hundred feet and have had one occasion to be grateful. Flying gliders there's other gliders popping up all over the place, even on long cross countries. In the Fall, the towplanes blend in against the foilage, but the white glider behind makes them easier to find
There's three SEPs I've had a good look at during XCs -- plus two twin turboprops, one of which I saw and was grateful he was going at a altitude between me and another glider sharing a thermal; another that ATC dumped me in front of that I used a near 90 degree bank to avoid
I saw him from well away, but he was really trucking.
After flying with other gliders in thermals, you begin to learn just how wide a turn can be, even steeply banked a low speed.
Then there's dodging birds. In a glider they're pretty good at missing us, but I've collected a bird at night.
I lowered the nose and the right side got all pernickity about what the H... was I doing??? Said there was another airplane. WHERE ??? Over there pointing to the right wing that blocked the instructors view -- Whereupon the left ashtray bounced off the ceiling as the instructor pointed the nose straight down from a few hundred feet up
Started flying again a few years ago after a long hiatus -- now there's all sorts of close encounters. In a high wing in cruise, I like to add a hundred feet and have had one occasion to be grateful. Flying gliders there's other gliders popping up all over the place, even on long cross countries. In the Fall, the towplanes blend in against the foilage, but the white glider behind makes them easier to find
There's three SEPs I've had a good look at during XCs -- plus two twin turboprops, one of which I saw and was grateful he was going at a altitude between me and another glider sharing a thermal; another that ATC dumped me in front of that I used a near 90 degree bank to avoid
I saw him from well away, but he was really trucking.
After flying with other gliders in thermals, you begin to learn just how wide a turn can be, even steeply banked a low speed.
Then there's dodging birds. In a glider they're pretty good at missing us, but I've collected a bird at night.
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Mary -
Probably wasn't a big comfort at the time, but I'd guess it was something which has stayed with you?
(BTW - love your posts and your candor - I'm learning from you.)
If conditions are VFR, madam, he replied, you have to look out for yourself.....
(BTW - love your posts and your candor - I'm learning from you.)
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mary and rotteray
it seems to my old memory that while on an IFR clearance, in a radar environment, point outs of non IFR traffic, or non conflicting IFR traffic will not happen...UNLESS it is a jet.
I recall that JETs receive slightly better service due to their higher speeds.
ALSO, if you are IFR (not necessarily IMC) and do get a traffic advisory, you will NOT get a vector away from VFR traffic unless you request it!!!!
I can't find my books right now to verify this ,but I encourage you to check aim and radar services/atc services.
it seems to my old memory that while on an IFR clearance, in a radar environment, point outs of non IFR traffic, or non conflicting IFR traffic will not happen...UNLESS it is a jet.
I recall that JETs receive slightly better service due to their higher speeds.
ALSO, if you are IFR (not necessarily IMC) and do get a traffic advisory, you will NOT get a vector away from VFR traffic unless you request it!!!!
I can't find my books right now to verify this ,but I encourage you to check aim and radar services/atc services.
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Mid-air collisions are too rare to worry about
Hi Protect,
Thanks for helping me make my case. Your experience of only 4 in 35 years of flying reinforces may argument.
By the way, I only suggested it is not worth worrying about mid-air collisions. I did not suggest or imply to stop looking out the windows.
Thanks for your comment.
Dick
Thanks for helping me make my case. Your experience of only 4 in 35 years of flying reinforces may argument.
By the way, I only suggested it is not worth worrying about mid-air collisions. I did not suggest or imply to stop looking out the windows.
Thanks for your comment.
Dick
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mid-air collisions are too rare to worry about
Hi Retired,
Nope, no humor intended. I wanted to start a discussion centered around the very small number (only 10 in 2007).
Thanks!
Dick
Nope, no humor intended. I wanted to start a discussion centered around the very small number (only 10 in 2007).
Thanks!
Dick
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Mid-air collisions are too rare to worry about
Hi Barit,
Do you normally apply randomness to your aircraft's track and altitude?
Thanks!
Dick
Do you normally apply randomness to your aircraft's track and altitude?
Thanks!
Dick
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Coincidence. Last sunday with a student flying into an airfield with Flight Service. Told him the freq and he called, no reply. Since it was sunday I thought Flight Service was not on duty. He made all the required calls, we saw nobody, and turned onto final. At about 300 feet he swore, pulled up and avoided an airplane immediately below us, making the same speed, bound for the same runway. I did not see him until the go around, and did not even see his shadow, which is usually what I see first. Maybe the two shadows were superimposed.
I do not know how he joined the pattern, I think it was through Base, and from low level, so we never had a chance to see him. This is a common way of joining at this airport, but he might have been under us all along, even on downwind. Scary.
The radio was finger trouble of course, and after I reset it, we continued in the pattern.
I asked Flight Service if they had any details of what happened, but the lady on the radio said she heard nothing from any of the airplanes related to this incident. The other pilot apparently never did see us, and the Flight Service was not aware we were even there, until after the go around when we called. There was an airplane waiting to takeoff, and that pilot could easily see the final approach but made no warning calls.
Many years of being the target, now I was the offender, and it did not feel good.
I do not know how he joined the pattern, I think it was through Base, and from low level, so we never had a chance to see him. This is a common way of joining at this airport, but he might have been under us all along, even on downwind. Scary.
The radio was finger trouble of course, and after I reset it, we continued in the pattern.
I asked Flight Service if they had any details of what happened, but the lady on the radio said she heard nothing from any of the airplanes related to this incident. The other pilot apparently never did see us, and the Flight Service was not aware we were even there, until after the go around when we called. There was an airplane waiting to takeoff, and that pilot could easily see the final approach but made no warning calls.
Many years of being the target, now I was the offender, and it did not feel good.
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rsiano:
I haven't been active for a while, but yes, I'd normally put a little insurance on the published track. It's not random, for the same reason I don't drive in random lanes on the highway.
BTW - In my jump-seat days I observed that crews usually put a bit of vertical and/or lateral offset on their track in certain parts of the world. The unofficial rules for this were probably (I can't say for sure) drafted in an offsite IFALPA meeting somewhere.
barit1
Hi Barit,
Do you normally apply randomness to your aircraft's track and altitude?
Thanks!
Dick
Do you normally apply randomness to your aircraft's track and altitude?
Thanks!
Dick
BTW - In my jump-seat days I observed that crews usually put a bit of vertical and/or lateral offset on their track in certain parts of the world. The unofficial rules for this were probably (I can't say for sure) drafted in an offsite IFALPA meeting somewhere.
barit1
rsiano
Hi Retired,
Nope, no humor intended. I wanted to start a discussion centered around the very small number (only 10 in 2007).
Thanks!
Dick
Hi Retired,
Nope, no humor intended. I wanted to start a discussion centered around the very small number (only 10 in 2007).
Thanks!
Dick
Last year a UL pilot was killed due to midair in the approach-sector of our airfield by a jak-formation.....
Ive lost my best friend in a midair in 1987, same day my son was born.....
Iīve lost another three squadron-buddies in midairs in 5 years.....
A cessna-Pilot got killed, when he got into the wake turbulence of a squadron jet ...... actually that was a nearmiss, however a fatal one..
I could count the rivets in the intake of an F-4 while passing unnoticed...
Guy came back with damaged wingtip, didīnt know how happened....
on another airfield there was the other guy wondering, why his wingtank was looking weired, both had met and hadnīt noticed anything.....
Sure most of it was military in VFR/VMC in one of the most crowded parts of germany, but all those mentioned had been accidents. I wont tell the many happenings with aircraft all sizes i met close enough to think about it. By the way, i also didīnt like the paperwork, and you never knew if it wouldīt fall back on yourself.
....even when you dont intend it, a young inexpierienced guy might just use your big sky thinking and reduce his already marginal lookout to zero. I dont want to be his paying passenger.
franzl
Last edited by RetiredF4; 8th Jun 2010 at 10:50.
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SPOOKY Mid-air story
I own a plane (made in 1968) that was in a mid-air in 1970 over Alabama. This was long before I owned it.
When I was researching the airplane before I bought it, I was astonished to find it in an NTSB report. The damage was minor (some sheet metal, a new propeller, and an engine teardown). The good news was that everyone in both planes survived without injury!
This seemed to me, a very unusual mid-air where evryone was fine.
So where is the spooky part?????????
A couple of months ago, I was flying from northern maine to Massachusetts IFR and working Boston Approach. They called traffic and warned about a similar callsign. I'm N4907J and it turned out that N4906J was on frequency flying the same route in the opposite direction (we were over PSM).
I soon saw an almost identical plane passing safely off my left wing.
Once he was off-frequency, the controller commented on the similar tail number and I said, "I bet he rolled off the assembly line just before me."
Well, when I got home, I Googled the tail number and found an NYSB report about a mid-air
In 1969, the N4906J was in a mid-air on the west coast. Everyone survived that one too!!!
So Two airplaanes. Same model, Same year of manufacture with consecutive tail numbers....
* Both had midairs while in normal cruise
* All planes were able to glide to an airport
* In both cases everyone survived without injury
* In both cases the other plane was a military plane
While I'm glad my plane is pre-disastered, I have to wonder what kind of Karma was floating around the Arrow production line back in 1968!!
When I was researching the airplane before I bought it, I was astonished to find it in an NTSB report. The damage was minor (some sheet metal, a new propeller, and an engine teardown). The good news was that everyone in both planes survived without injury!
This seemed to me, a very unusual mid-air where evryone was fine.
So where is the spooky part?????????
A couple of months ago, I was flying from northern maine to Massachusetts IFR and working Boston Approach. They called traffic and warned about a similar callsign. I'm N4907J and it turned out that N4906J was on frequency flying the same route in the opposite direction (we were over PSM).
I soon saw an almost identical plane passing safely off my left wing.
Once he was off-frequency, the controller commented on the similar tail number and I said, "I bet he rolled off the assembly line just before me."
Well, when I got home, I Googled the tail number and found an NYSB report about a mid-air
In 1969, the N4906J was in a mid-air on the west coast. Everyone survived that one too!!!
So Two airplaanes. Same model, Same year of manufacture with consecutive tail numbers....
* Both had midairs while in normal cruise
* All planes were able to glide to an airport
* In both cases everyone survived without injury
* In both cases the other plane was a military plane
While I'm glad my plane is pre-disastered, I have to wonder what kind of Karma was floating around the Arrow production line back in 1968!!