Ptkay

You are just a stirrer...
You joined this forum short after the Smolensk accident.
From the very beginning you were just poking and nit picking,
never contributing any viable or substantial information to the forum.
All your post are just on the Smolensk thread, no other.

I do not know your aviation experience or education, but following
your posts, I can assume it's near to nil.
I assume also you are a Polish journalist of certain political orientation
fishing for sensation and confirmation of your conspiracy theories
on this forum.

I am here, on this forum, since over 7 years, I am a pilot and
aviation enthusiast.

I contributed enough of the "substantive arguments" on different topics.

So you are certainly not the one to tell me to be silent.

Tiger65

Ptkay,

Let me address your post.
Many people have joined this site/forum after the Smolensk accident and many more follow the thread. Is it something criminal? Here is a place to discuss circumstances of this tragic event, isn't it? One of the victims I knew in person but that doesn't automatically mean that my views at the crash are filled with conspiracy theories. I am far away from that.
Neither I am a Polish journalist nor politically biased. Just neutral with technical university background.

Even if you were an astronaut it would not have automatically meant you could profesionally investigate the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster (by the way, dr. Binienda did).

With all due respect you are not NTSB investigator. I do believe you have strong professional experience as pilot, but null as air crash investigator.
Me neither.

Both official reports contain findings which contradict each other. I am sure, you will agree, that the main objective of any investigation is to improve flight safety. If some of the final conclusions are wrong or based on wrong assumptions similair accident may happen again with equally disastrous consequences.


Aerobat77,

The roll both parties calculated/estimated based on the measurement of trimmed trees near a car dealer (Kutuzov Str.) was approx. 110 deg.
I think, it does matter whether the plane hit the ground at 65 deg or 200 deg roll.

Lena.Kiev

Matters for what?

Green Guard

well well...If you were born in the year 1965
you can never be a tiger, but simple ol' snake
most probably poisonous one

Skyglider

Its all in Polish but the main thing is that the radar controller the whole time gives them information that they are on course & glidepath, when in fact the whole time they are 80m to the left of course & glidepath varies from +125m to -70m of the intended one.(these are not small numbers)
The command horizon (goaround)from the controller was given when the airplane was 70m below glidepath? it should have been given 11sec earlier when they ware 100m above airport level? The PLF crew commenced a goaround 3 sec before the command horizon.... unfortunately to late.
I'm just saying that the actions from the ground radar controller contributed to this accident, why didn't he warn them? but afcourse the PIC has the final responsibility! You wont see anything mentioned above, in the MAK report!

aerobat77

well, the russians did not mentioned such things like a bad airport equipment or incorrect radar readings , simply not to be blamed for this disaster. lets do not forget that this was not a "simple" airliner crash- and taking any responsibilityany for this might result in a international political disaster. even when the aircraft would be faulty could cause this since it was russian build and overhauled.

in my opinion- but its just purely me- having read also the voice recording of the tower, there was somekind of a lazy athmosphere from russian side after the controller informed the crew that a landing will not be possible and maybe he thought "when you are such a hero c,mon and show me how you will manage this" . the controller expected a go around and then a comment from the russian side like "hey you polish hero, i told you, no landing possible" .

only in the last seconds he realized that the pilot tries to come down at every cost and realized that the situation gets critical. so he shouted into the micro to level off. but it was too late.

we do not know how exact the russian approach radar at smolensk is, and also we do not know how proficient the tower controller was in monitoring approaches in such bad weather.

maybe , when this would be an ordinary commercial flight, the russian would refuse a clearance to make an approach at this conditions, but they were aware of the consequences doing this here. the newspapers would write

" the russians refused landing clearance for the polish president travelling for ceremony of murdered polish officers by russians in ww2"

afhelipilot

Lena,please do not give up at all. I really wish you could be a member of the investigation committee. Basically, we had entered a dangerous sphere of the “ university publication game” it’s started to be humiliating. Yesterday spoke with an American expert. All what I would do is; I would call the nearest American base ( friends ) and kindly ask them for permission for the emergency landing explaining all the details with a cockpit just using a last sense of the common sense and I would ask a President stationed in London to talk with a base so they would agree. I will ask you some questions Lena, after reading the entire materials provided here. By the way, let’s do not shout at Tiger or at anyone else at all on this thread. Just these further investigations are confusing all. I will ask you more questions your explanations are like a medicine after this tragedy.

Green Guard

sounds like, for example when someone tries to engage the prosecutor to act like a judge.

ARRAKIS

afhelipilot,
what would be the purpose of doing it?? I see none, as there is nothing new to be learnt here. Basically there are no questions regarding the raw data coming from CVR/FDR/QAR/ATC tapes/trees. As they were 3 separate teams working on the Polish side on the CVR recording, and much longer than the Russians did, some new elements showed here, but only that.
The problem is about interpreting those data, and personally I have to disagree with the image/interpretation presented by both MAK and the Polish report.

afhelipilot

I’m in the middle of reading M report now. The reason why I would place a black box at a neutral place is to avoid further meaningless types of the investigations. I would place a black box in London or at the base for the screening and would just live it there. After reading M report, I will ask Lena more questions regarding the interpretation of the facts.

Karel_x

By the rules of ICAO (UNO), investigation is done by state, where the disaster happens and to store black boxes on “neutral” place is very unusual and nonstandard request. I think that problem is not in the way of MAK investigation, they did their investigation on good standard level.

Anyway if MAK did anything, some part of Poles will dispute something else. Read Polish reaction to MAK report. They collect tens or hundredths reasons why the MAK report is incorrect. It is mostly stupid discussion - if captain have several hours more or less, whether 4-th steward was or not a member of crew and so on. I understand when they should disuse a few important issues and give their own version or scenario. Bud this is not the goal – the goal is to blame and to defame Russkies.

aerobat77

karel is fully right . polish people are ( and thats good so! ) proud people so its hard for them to understand that basicly very very poor airmanship of the polish pilots created this disaster and nothing else.

afhelipilot

I am still reading the m report, is not a bad one. I really doubt that a woman T a head of the Russian sky , would let her commission to state anything that would had been against the common facts. Perhaps, there was a pressure. Lena is right. It’s one of the first feelings after reading m report for a first time. I spoke with my friend, following what Lena has stated so far, we would take actions, upon hearing the first information regarding the situation. We would discuss the other landing options with other President the one who used to live in L and with a cockpit. I would defend him.Well, we would had proposed perhaps a base just to avoid an embarrassment. Having several hours on this flight is a long time really. For sure, I know if I would had flown again the helicopter with the others who would at constant insist of what I should do they would end up at the nearest park. I will point out the points for Lena to explain further on few doubts and will draw a picture of what we would do to learn. As for now, I see that that further investigations are meaningless.

afhelipilot

Karel yes had read few of the comments ( emotional ones ) so far and stopped at the “ shooting scenery”. I agree with Potato232 comments.

Lena, the correct answers for this tragic crash accident could be easily found on: pp.101-105 at m report. Do you agree with a term “ clash of the motives” as pointed in m report?. I definitely do. This should had been a beginning point of the investigation.. Lena, were there any shootings at Smolensk or were they implemented if any in order to scary and to stop the locals coming up and watching this tragedy? Or is it a disinformation? I got scared again really. As I said, I would stay with the other President living in London to the nearest end and would had tried to land with the others at the nearest base after hearing the first negative information instead of being a lamb.

punkalouver

No transcript in this link.

wozzo

Try clicking on "English" at bottom of page. Or download this PDF printout.

afhelipilot

Following the PDF ( for a first time ) the voice belongs to the General ( I am sure ) . If there was enough fuel to fly to Moscow as proposed -then there would had been also enough to fly to the base. Yes, of course the base would had given an emergency landing permission already had asked. I guess all must find the suitable answers on their owns, following the material given here.

Starbear

Prosecutor shoots himself according to BBC


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16466522 >

coldair

Polish prosecutor Mikolaj Przybyl shoots himself after news conference | Mail Online

talkpedlar

Oh Lordy..Has there ever been an accident investigation plagued by so many allegations and distractions?

Whatever communications were hacked/tapped/altered, here we had an aeroplane full of VVIPs flying into the ground in wx clearly below minima.

(Yet another Mull of Kintyre/Ron Brown tragedy.. wtf plans and approves these flights? eggs in baskets etc..)

Regarding this particular tragedy, maybe time that some nations adopted a rigid sterile-cockpit policy? Just MHO of course. TP