Polish Presidential Flight Crash Thread
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Max permitted 2 g with flaps out, 2.5 g otherwise. Min permitted 0 g with flaps out, -1 g otherwise.
But that's permitted. Real strength limit of an undamaged wing has to be higher. A damaged wing is another story.
Recommended 0.5 - 1.8 g.
Other numbers - max roll permitted under various conditions.
But that's permitted. Real strength limit of an undamaged wing has to be higher. A damaged wing is another story.
Recommended 0.5 - 1.8 g.
Other numbers - max roll permitted under various conditions.
Last edited by Lena.Kiev; 28th Nov 2011 at 20:17.
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aerobat77
all people who feel the russians are lying in the report- so what
all people who feel the russians are lying in the report- so what
Are you under the impression that it is OK to leave out vital information in an air crash investigation?Look at the Polish investigation & you will see big differences.
As I sead before... the MAK investigation is a joke! The Polish investigation explains WHAT & WHY things happed as they did.
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Aerobat77,
This massive g overload that happened approx. 70m behind the second birch was caused by 2 unexplained events. TAWS and FMS registered two massive shocks causing rapid rolls.
This massive g overload that happened approx. 70m behind the second birch was caused by 2 unexplained events. TAWS and FMS registered two massive shocks causing rapid rolls.
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i must say i did not read the polish comments on the official report but i,m wondering what vital should we read there?
i think its clear that the pilot descended with a functioning and responding aircraft until hitting obstacles and finally the ground- that is the vital information what happend i think.
@ tiger : good question- maybe the wing at this moment separated , maybe they hit something else or the first ground contact. what i can say that the surely not broke the wing with the pull on the column at this low speed , no way. so it seems logocal that the indeed hit the trees, maybe the part of the wing separated immediately, maybe some moments later- and it is hardly a difference.
i think its clear that the pilot descended with a functioning and responding aircraft until hitting obstacles and finally the ground- that is the vital information what happend i think.
@ tiger : good question- maybe the wing at this moment separated , maybe they hit something else or the first ground contact. what i can say that the surely not broke the wing with the pull on the column at this low speed , no way. so it seems logocal that the indeed hit the trees, maybe the part of the wing separated immediately, maybe some moments later- and it is hardly a difference.
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Aerobat77, you could be right (partly at least). However, there are some other things that require further investigation.
Recovered data from RA, TAWS, FMS, etc. indicate that there was a deep roll but not the barrel roll as 2 official reports stated. Another thing that has puzzled scientists specializing in mechanical engineering was a crash site. There were literally thousands of plane debris scattered at the crash scene. With no barrel roll, low altitude (few meters off the ground), low speed, no deep impact traces the plane could not desintegrated the way it was officialy stated.
Recovered data from RA, TAWS, FMS, etc. indicate that there was a deep roll but not the barrel roll as 2 official reports stated. Another thing that has puzzled scientists specializing in mechanical engineering was a crash site. There were literally thousands of plane debris scattered at the crash scene. With no barrel roll, low altitude (few meters off the ground), low speed, no deep impact traces the plane could not desintegrated the way it was officialy stated.
Look at the Polish investigation & you will see big differences.
As I sead before... the MAK investigation is a joke! The Polish investigation explains WHAT & WHY things happed as they did.
As I sead before... the MAK investigation is a joke! The Polish investigation explains WHAT & WHY things happed as they did.
Arrakis
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No reason to shout.
Some research would have brought up from this post an unofficial transcript (Google Docs):
http://bit.ly/92Jb76
Some research would have brought up from this post an unofficial transcript (Google Docs):
http://bit.ly/92Jb76
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Lena is right. Miller's committee published transcript in Polish only (conversations with the flight controllers are in Russian and English as recorded).
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/pr...pokladowej.pdf
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/pr...pokladowej.pdf
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Knew two on board
I was at a Polish airforce wedding a few months before the crash and two who died in it were there too.
From what we have heard the Polish president had prior form or ordering pilots to land against their professional judgement. In a previous case the pilot had refused and had later been 'removed from duty' so the pressure on this pilot would have been huge; not least because of the politcial and historical significance of the remembrance ceremony they were going to attend. Diverting to an alternative airfield would have made them hopelessly late for the ceremony and been a potential great embarresment to Polish officials.
We also heard, my wife speaks Russian as well as Polish, that the Russian authorities strongly advised against attempting to land. It is a well known tricky airfield, in hills with forests, and even regulars there would have been unlikely to attempt a landing in the foggy conditions of the day.
In other words it all seems down to an error of judgement due to political and higher ranking pressure on the pilots. If it had gone OK it would have made a great story to boast of but we all know how it turned out. Very sad.
From what we have heard the Polish president had prior form or ordering pilots to land against their professional judgement. In a previous case the pilot had refused and had later been 'removed from duty' so the pressure on this pilot would have been huge; not least because of the politcial and historical significance of the remembrance ceremony they were going to attend. Diverting to an alternative airfield would have made them hopelessly late for the ceremony and been a potential great embarresment to Polish officials.
We also heard, my wife speaks Russian as well as Polish, that the Russian authorities strongly advised against attempting to land. It is a well known tricky airfield, in hills with forests, and even regulars there would have been unlikely to attempt a landing in the foggy conditions of the day.
In other words it all seems down to an error of judgement due to political and higher ranking pressure on the pilots. If it had gone OK it would have made a great story to boast of but we all know how it turned out. Very sad.
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L@ , is there any reason to treat the information in the transcript given by Tiger referring to pp.9 as a reliable one? Is there any reason to believe that one of the Presidents ( especially the one stationed in London ) could had been one of the 6 people showing the signs of life as indicated on pp.9? It is shocking. I am still in a process of reading and re reading.The black box should really reach the neutral place to cut off the wonderings at once or " university publication game".
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Lena, thank you. The page 9 from a transcript provided by Tiger: ( Read for a first time )
http://home.comcast.net/~fotoszop/ks...s%20Report.pdf
There were two Presidents, one stationed in London the representative of the most distinguished government which was set up in London during WWII, and the President was chosen to continue politics of this government and he was also on this tragic flight. And many of his friends ended up in Africa. Now, as for the information provided on pp.9, I started to have doubts and I started to wonder ... and I got scared really. I really like your explanations with many others as well at least they are realistic.
http://home.comcast.net/~fotoszop/ks...s%20Report.pdf
There were two Presidents, one stationed in London the representative of the most distinguished government which was set up in London during WWII, and the President was chosen to continue politics of this government and he was also on this tragic flight. And many of his friends ended up in Africa. Now, as for the information provided on pp.9, I started to have doubts and I started to wonder ... and I got scared really. I really like your explanations with many others as well at least they are realistic.
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The "report" of anonymous "experts" mentions a hearsay "Initial reports from the crash scene indicated that 6 people on the crash scene showed signs of life". Do you believe every hearsay?
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Well, maybe not really, So the information on pp.9 may be treated as “ hearsay”. I think Lena that the entire black box should be placed at Neutral place in order to avoid any kind of the enquires or these wonderings. Hmm the President stationed in London who passed away, for sure would ask for a little bit more of common sense. I like your explanations a lot.
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Another thing that has puzzled scientists specializing in mechanical engineering was a crash site. There were literally thousands of plane debris scattered at the crash scene. With no barrel roll, low altitude (few meters off the ground), low speed, no deep impact traces the plane could not desintegrated the way it was officialy stated.
i speak it out : do you think that the russians shot it down at final? and some people even survived but were "eliminated"?
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You can't say "fully inverted". None of recovered data support that. Moreover, all electronic/electric devices were shut down prior to the impact with the ground due to uknown reason.
KGB is now FSB
As for the answer, I do not know what happend during the crash and the following first minutes after.
KGB is now FSB
As for the answer, I do not know what happend during the crash and the following first minutes after.
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hi !
such pictures :
http://rt.com/files/politics/rejects...ensk-981.n.jpg
show that the debries at least came to rest fully inverted but i agree that this does not mean the aircraft hit the ground fully inverted. but, does it make a difference? at least a massive roll was introduced due to wing separation, what angle ever at moment of impact .
what electronic devices were shut down before impact ?
such pictures :
http://rt.com/files/politics/rejects...ensk-981.n.jpg
show that the debries at least came to rest fully inverted but i agree that this does not mean the aircraft hit the ground fully inverted. but, does it make a difference? at least a massive roll was introduced due to wing separation, what angle ever at moment of impact .
what electronic devices were shut down before impact ?
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This disaster was relatively good clarified, may be better then average. But when somebody believes in conspiraton theories it is very hard to talk him out of it. Some part of Poles will never accept that PAF 101 was common disaster caused firstly by violation of essencial rules for non precise approach in condition of poor visibility.
Hate with paranoia against "Russkies" are not the question of intelect, it cant be changed by rational arguments.
Hate with paranoia against "Russkies" are not the question of intelect, it cant be changed by rational arguments.