Alice025

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What controller sees on his screen is a photo on this page.
One photo is glideslope, the second is course. To the red line they say not to pay attention (someone painted it on top of the photo).

Alice025

Empty place between the "fences" in the first photo - it is the very glideslope! :o) in which the mark from the plane should be moving, within the empty place, when the plane glideslopes? altight.

Alice025

TU154M No 101 navigation equipment, google translated from Polish into English from this site
MILITARIUM - Krótka historia dwóch Tupolewów

"In contrast to serial machines, our Tupolewy received during the operation and subsequent repair / maintenance primarily modern avionics. Communications equipment are HF radios Micron, FM Orlan-85ST, Satellite phone (since 2008), R-855UM radio station, the device's internal communications SPU-7B, SGS-speaker system in 1925, tape recording conversations of the crew Mars BM. Security tasks in the air allow the modern navigation equipment. These include:

• doubled navigation system FMS UNS-1D (the production of Universal Avionics) with the computer navigation Navigation Computer Unit (NCU) and two control panels (FPCDU - Flat Panel Display Control Unit) And two sets of dwunastokanałowych GPS receivers with antennas CI 401;
• radiokompas ARK-15M,
• RW radio-5M
• navigation and landing Rate-MP-70,
• Additional GPS navigation receiver Bendix / King KLN-89Previously was used receiver Garmin 155XL, The plane on / b had another 101-1000 GPS receiver with antenna type CI 401,
• reception of radio signals Radio Reference Sensor with antenna DME, VOR splitter,
• flight control system ABS-154-2
• exchange rate system TKS-P2
• aerodynamic data system WBE-SWS,
• Imaging system for land and warning of the approach to obstacles Avoidance
• collision system TCAS-II (detects up to 45 objects, illustrated 30 of them),
• Weather radar RDR-4B
• Multifunction display MFD-640
• Doppler meter drift angle and speed of travel DISS-013,
• portable disk drive (Omega DTU) as a navigator.

jcjeant

Hi,

Useless spend money this upgrade .. as all this material don't helped to avoid the crash.
Instead this was better spend money in good trainning courses for pilots.

opherben

Since not all facts are in front of us, normally it is best to wait for the investigation findings. However I can't trust the Russian objectivity given their motives.

My view of the primary and main secondary factors in this case are:
a. The pilot in command, the sole person responsible for the safety of his aircraft, evidently failed his duty by attempting a trial approach with intent to land if in his opinion it was possible. The approach was started when conditions reported freshly were below minimums. There is no precision approach for that runway/ airport. There are open questions regarding obstable and terrain data relevant to the approach.
b. The approach controller provided approach radar information, down to 2 km from the threshold, to the pilot, having previously established that weather conditions were unsuitable for it.
c. Pressure on the crew by the passengers to land, may have affected crew judgment in performing their duty. It also contributed to reduced focus on the task at hand.

BOAC

opherben - your 'view':


a) 1) There is no such thing as a 'trial' approach in this world. The approach was made to land or go-round if necessary.
a) 2) We understand there was probably a Precision (PAR) service available but not used by the crew
a) 3) None of the possible 'terrain' or 'obstacle' data would in any way affect the conduct of a properly flown approach

b) The 'approach' information given by ATC to the 'pilot' was, as far as I can see from the transcript, advisory due to a) 2 above. Certainly in the western world ATC cannot prevent an a/c from making an approach.

tcas1

I find it amazing to see that Ptkay doesn't have the same attitude as he had for the eurocypria incident at Katowice as far as this accident is concerned. I remember him insisting that eurocypria should have been banned from polish airspace for the incident where the minima where busted and the aircraft landed with one wheel on the grass. How do you feel now Ptkay? Feels closer to home huh?

Ptkay

I have the same opinion as before.
I clearly see this accident as pilot error.

Clear case of busting minima.
They got used to it, because before, (for example in Gdansk),
they did it with success and no consequences were taken.

If no consequences take place, like in Eurocyprie case,
the result is sooner or later a crash, as we can see it!!!

Ptkay

Tcas1, I feel bad, because, if I have made more fuss about the Eurocypria,
the message, that the minima cannot be busted without consequences
would have spread around and maybe got to the minds of this accident pilots.

Unfortunately the opposite is the case.

The minima are busted everyday and nobody reports.
The ATC has no interests in reporting, the airlines are rather
congratulating the pilots for landing "when nobody else could".

Also the military pilots are patted on the shoulder for landing
under "impossible conditions" by the generals, instead of being
sacked for bringing people and hardware in danger.

This is the culture we are living in, and the discussed accident is just
the tragic projection of this fact.

Once again, Tcas1, are you sure you know, what are you talking about?

BTW.: There was another serious incident at EPKT when busting minima.
Also no lessons learned. Air Europa, 19-10-2007.

criss

ATC is not police, and usually has no possbility to judge whether minima were busted.

Ptkay

Yes, you are right.
It has been tried to approach this problem by "Just Culture"
anonymous reporting scheme.
It didn't work in Poland, AFAIK.

Everybody holds with each other.
Especially in Poland, to report on your buddy is a terminal crime.
Within flying community nobody dares to say anything.

Until an aerobatic pilot with 40kg overweight, on high blood pressure drugs,
killed himself and his young partner.
Neither his doctor nor any of his partners in the team said anything to anybody,
until the blood was spilled.

And particularly within military "Kammeradschaft",
as the Germans call it, is stronger than elsewhere.

criss

You don't understand...

ATC has no means to judge whether crew busted minima or not, so your points are irrelevant.

probes

Maybe the ATC-side should also have 'black boxes'.

criss

What do you mean?

probes

Some recordings that could be checked afterwards, to make sure what the ATC saw on his screens and whether his reactions/instructions were appropriate. Sorry if this is an unprofessional idea.

Also to check if the pilots took unnecessary risks as seen from the tower.

criss

And you think this things are not recorded?

probes

Why can't anybody tell what the ATC at Smolensk thought or expected, then?

criss

Because it wasn't what you'd call a standard ATC unit.

tcas1

So Ptkay do you suggest we ban polish mil jets flying over russian airspace?
And for your info Captain involved in eurocypria incident lost his job and f/o undergoing extensive training.
Just wanted to emphasise to you that never say never and never assume till you know the full story.

Ptkay

No, Tcas1, but the normal procedure was, you needed a Russian navigator on board.
It has been abandoned last year.
After the accident Russians want to enforce it again, that
any aircraft, military or not, flying to a Russian military airport
will need to have Russian navigator on board.
He will know the language, he will know Russian mil PAR procedures
and will be cooperating with the mil ATC.

Source:
Ekspert: Na pok?adzie Tu-154 powinien by? rosyjski nawigator

Google T?umacz
Such procedure, used for many years before, would have prevented this accident

Good to hear.
For the sake of the safety of us all.