Stroppy First Officers - CRM issue
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In Hotels..
Age: 45
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work with a couple of captains who have terrible CRM.. One Cap even pointed at her stripes to make a point she was in charge. I understand fully the plight of you but as a Captain, if these snappy comments are coming your way, you nip it in the bud surely. As a Copi its hard.. How do I tell a Captain they have terrible people skills and rub every other member of the crew up the wrong way and take pride in that? To cap this off, one has terrible hands on skill and the other is poor on the SOP front...
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Traditionally they make you a judge when you have the experience and the demonstrated maturity and aptitude to fulfill that role. You do seem rather judgmental of these senior crewmembers from your less than lofty perspective?
These captains with "terrible CRM," I assume you mean CRM attributed skills? How did they qualify for promotion, and given the recurrent testing criteria how do they maintain a position in your company with these "terrible" skills? Does your judgment differ radically from those charged with the 6 monthly assesments? Presumably it must, since maintainance of command would normally require at least a consistent ongoing grade of average or satifactory in both the use of SOP's and the notech requirements as part of the overall assesment.
Why? What had you done to cause such exasperation?
It really is a fundamental mistake to interpret "CRM" as some sort of universal leveller. In any walk of life and in any industry there are going to be individuals with a spectrum of personalities. There simply will never be a one size fits all character that everybody should aspire to. A lot of emphasis in the understanding of behavioural markers, is in understanding your own. It is how you as an individual can tailor and adapt your own interpersonal skills to best work with the whole range of people and personalities you are likely to meet.
Nobody is perfect. I am not, you are not, and its a fair guess that neither of the two captains you mention are either. However part of the learning process in this job (and many others) is in seeking to understand and adapt to make these personalities mesh with your own in such a way that you achieve the best possible result. We all work with people who for one reason or another we don't particular like. That is just a fact of life. Understanding and adapting to these people often requires a great deal of effort and some time, however there is usually much to be learned from the work required.
Nobody said it was easy, even though trotting out those three letters "CRM" as a universal catch all, often is?
These captains with "terrible CRM," I assume you mean CRM attributed skills? How did they qualify for promotion, and given the recurrent testing criteria how do they maintain a position in your company with these "terrible" skills? Does your judgment differ radically from those charged with the 6 monthly assesments? Presumably it must, since maintainance of command would normally require at least a consistent ongoing grade of average or satifactory in both the use of SOP's and the notech requirements as part of the overall assesment.
One Cap even pointed at her stripes to make a point she was in charge.
It really is a fundamental mistake to interpret "CRM" as some sort of universal leveller. In any walk of life and in any industry there are going to be individuals with a spectrum of personalities. There simply will never be a one size fits all character that everybody should aspire to. A lot of emphasis in the understanding of behavioural markers, is in understanding your own. It is how you as an individual can tailor and adapt your own interpersonal skills to best work with the whole range of people and personalities you are likely to meet.
Nobody is perfect. I am not, you are not, and its a fair guess that neither of the two captains you mention are either. However part of the learning process in this job (and many others) is in seeking to understand and adapt to make these personalities mesh with your own in such a way that you achieve the best possible result. We all work with people who for one reason or another we don't particular like. That is just a fact of life. Understanding and adapting to these people often requires a great deal of effort and some time, however there is usually much to be learned from the work required.
Nobody said it was easy, even though trotting out those three letters "CRM" as a universal catch all, often is?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my estimation, command is not about telling your F/O when to start down (unless it is getting to the point where). It`s an opportunity to teach.
It`s not about ordering the F/O to wear a tie during the flight or that his or her shoes need shining. It`s an opportunity to help your F/O elevate his professional appearance to a whole new level.
It`s not about commanding the F/O how far to deviate for thunderstorms (unless the F/Os idea of a deviation is unsafe or inadequate). It`s an opportunity to share your WX knowledge and experience.
These examples are all part of your commanders roles and responsibilities. Having an argument over it on the flightdeck isn`t the solution and neither is giving your F/O the cold shoulder.
Command IS about ensuring the FPLN is accurate and correct. If not, ordering up a new one is a command decision AND as such falls under the command authority of the aircraft commander.
Command IS about ensuring sufficient fuel is on board to safely conduct the flight. Otherwise, ordering up additional fuel (or perhaps ordering that the aircraft gets a defuelling) falls under the authority of the aircraft commander.
Command IS about making sure the weather along the route is flyable and the chosen FPLN alternates are properly assigned.
Command is also recognizing when the filing of a new or revised FPLN may be required when flow control or slot assignments are in effect.
Informing your operations control when it is your opinion the flight needs to be delayed.
This is exercising command.
My impression of this thread, while it`s an excellent dialogue, is that personality conflict on the flight deck (unless I`ve gotten the stroppy context all wrong) is handled by telling/ordering/commanding the F/O who`s the boss and who should be told in clear uncertain terms who`s the commander (perhaps tapping on your Captains epaulets might go a long way to shorten the discussion, but that doesn`t work for me). Some of these notions are simply outside the bounds of command and what makes a good PIC. IMHO
It`s when an F/O flies with a Captain who hasn`t figured out the difference between the two that these stroppy F/Os usually get their dander up.
You might also reverse that by saying when a Captain flies with an F/O who hasn`t figured out the difference between the two....
It`s not about ordering the F/O to wear a tie during the flight or that his or her shoes need shining. It`s an opportunity to help your F/O elevate his professional appearance to a whole new level.
It`s not about commanding the F/O how far to deviate for thunderstorms (unless the F/Os idea of a deviation is unsafe or inadequate). It`s an opportunity to share your WX knowledge and experience.
These examples are all part of your commanders roles and responsibilities. Having an argument over it on the flightdeck isn`t the solution and neither is giving your F/O the cold shoulder.
Command IS about ensuring the FPLN is accurate and correct. If not, ordering up a new one is a command decision AND as such falls under the command authority of the aircraft commander.
Command IS about ensuring sufficient fuel is on board to safely conduct the flight. Otherwise, ordering up additional fuel (or perhaps ordering that the aircraft gets a defuelling) falls under the authority of the aircraft commander.
Command IS about making sure the weather along the route is flyable and the chosen FPLN alternates are properly assigned.
Command is also recognizing when the filing of a new or revised FPLN may be required when flow control or slot assignments are in effect.
Informing your operations control when it is your opinion the flight needs to be delayed.
This is exercising command.
My impression of this thread, while it`s an excellent dialogue, is that personality conflict on the flight deck (unless I`ve gotten the stroppy context all wrong) is handled by telling/ordering/commanding the F/O who`s the boss and who should be told in clear uncertain terms who`s the commander (perhaps tapping on your Captains epaulets might go a long way to shorten the discussion, but that doesn`t work for me). Some of these notions are simply outside the bounds of command and what makes a good PIC. IMHO
It`s when an F/O flies with a Captain who hasn`t figured out the difference between the two that these stroppy F/Os usually get their dander up.
You might also reverse that by saying when a Captain flies with an F/O who hasn`t figured out the difference between the two....
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 17th May 2009 at 23:12.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the mist
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To put it in simple terms.... You can use your laptop to run your business mate... I have no problem with that. So long as you can fly the plane at the same time.... By the way... I'm watching you out of sheer curiosity because I don't think it's possible!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taking your word for it and asuming that your particular F/O is stroppy. The fix is relatively straight forward. You take control and say thank you for your viewpoint - I have control. Then don't give him a leg for the rest of the day. Or the next day until he gets the message. He soon will.
But always be polite about it. Never reason with him and don't be suckered into explaining why you are taking certain courses of action.That is his cue to argue to the contrary whatever you do. Some people are born that way. If he cannot understand why you take a certain course of action, that is his problem - not yours. Unfortunately these characters exist in most airlines and you can either cringe in the left seat and give lame explanations in which case that type of character will seize upon your weakness and give you more stick.
Or you stop the chappie in his tracks. Prevention is better than cure. For some captains it is easy to put the stroppy one in his place. For others it is difficult depending on your own personality. None of us enjoy confrontation, but sometimes you have to cause a crisis to fix a crisis and for some that takes bottle.
But always be polite about it. Never reason with him and don't be suckered into explaining why you are taking certain courses of action.That is his cue to argue to the contrary whatever you do. Some people are born that way. If he cannot understand why you take a certain course of action, that is his problem - not yours. Unfortunately these characters exist in most airlines and you can either cringe in the left seat and give lame explanations in which case that type of character will seize upon your weakness and give you more stick.
Or you stop the chappie in his tracks. Prevention is better than cure. For some captains it is easy to put the stroppy one in his place. For others it is difficult depending on your own personality. None of us enjoy confrontation, but sometimes you have to cause a crisis to fix a crisis and for some that takes bottle.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Scandiland
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Try my method.
I don't know if you have any hotel stops or similar, you'll need it to work as I would never try this in the cockpit!
Make a list of all the times when he's exhibited bad behaviour or a crappy attitude. List what he did and how it made you feel. If there were any safety breaches as a result, point these out.
Ask if he's up for a beer after a couple of sectors. Set the trap.
Grease him up and ask him about his previous flying career. Ask him what made him want to become a pilot. Ask him his defenition of a good pilot.
Point it out to him the few up-sides you see in him, perhaps handling and theoretical knowledge are some points.
Then you ask if he's willing to take some critique. If he's not, then just dont say anything. If he is willing (which he will be, it's the golden rule, if you ask, he has to say yes to not automatically look like an idiot and he knows it), methodically go through your list. Thoroughly explain what he did and how it affected safety. Make him understand that he's far from his goals of being a good pilot. Let him know that he indeed has a problem with the CRM concept. Explain that he needs to be more autentive and listen to people around him.
If I understand this person correctly from your description, he's much like one of our more senior pilots. He's very good in that he can actually fly the plane. He has the capacity, but not the rest. He's an absolute a
e to fly with and to simply suggest something, you need a good and solid plan to put forth this suggestion. You have to make him think that it's his idea from the start. That's the point of making him think about what a good pilot is.
Silent battles in the form of not letting him fly or just treating him with the same attitude never gets you anywhere.
Personally I don't think this type of person should ever make it through flight school, but with todays "pay for you job" thing going on, anyone will make it through. Then it is up to the more senior colleagues to provide a professional upbringing. It is your role as a captain to provide constant instruction, even in the more softer matter such as this. Best way to do this is in a relaxed setting without the uniform. That gives him a way out and he won't feel pressured and this in turn may lead to him actually thinking about his behaviour. I expect he does not have any amount of self critique whatsoever and this is basically where the problem lies. His view of himself does not match reality and this is what needs to change. He has to be made aware of his behaviour. With awareness, half the battle is won.
I don't know who said it first, but my definition of a good pilot is: a pilot that allways strives to be better.
I don't know if you have any hotel stops or similar, you'll need it to work as I would never try this in the cockpit!
Make a list of all the times when he's exhibited bad behaviour or a crappy attitude. List what he did and how it made you feel. If there were any safety breaches as a result, point these out.
Ask if he's up for a beer after a couple of sectors. Set the trap.
Grease him up and ask him about his previous flying career. Ask him what made him want to become a pilot. Ask him his defenition of a good pilot.
Point it out to him the few up-sides you see in him, perhaps handling and theoretical knowledge are some points.
Then you ask if he's willing to take some critique. If he's not, then just dont say anything. If he is willing (which he will be, it's the golden rule, if you ask, he has to say yes to not automatically look like an idiot and he knows it), methodically go through your list. Thoroughly explain what he did and how it affected safety. Make him understand that he's far from his goals of being a good pilot. Let him know that he indeed has a problem with the CRM concept. Explain that he needs to be more autentive and listen to people around him.
If I understand this person correctly from your description, he's much like one of our more senior pilots. He's very good in that he can actually fly the plane. He has the capacity, but not the rest. He's an absolute a
e to fly with and to simply suggest something, you need a good and solid plan to put forth this suggestion. You have to make him think that it's his idea from the start. That's the point of making him think about what a good pilot is. Silent battles in the form of not letting him fly or just treating him with the same attitude never gets you anywhere.
Personally I don't think this type of person should ever make it through flight school, but with todays "pay for you job" thing going on, anyone will make it through. Then it is up to the more senior colleagues to provide a professional upbringing. It is your role as a captain to provide constant instruction, even in the more softer matter such as this. Best way to do this is in a relaxed setting without the uniform. That gives him a way out and he won't feel pressured and this in turn may lead to him actually thinking about his behaviour. I expect he does not have any amount of self critique whatsoever and this is basically where the problem lies. His view of himself does not match reality and this is what needs to change. He has to be made aware of his behaviour. With awareness, half the battle is won.
I don't know who said it first, but my definition of a good pilot is: a pilot that allways strives to be better.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hear, hear! Kudos indeed to Low'n'slow.
I think that was an absolutely excellent post. Most pilots develop a keen feel for techical matters -- all knowledge combined into a sense of knowing what needs to be done, and how, factoring in the many variables encountered. LnS seems to have developed that same keen feel when it comes to human matters. Bravo!
One of the best books; that is to say one of the books that have taught me the most about flying, is not flying-related at all. It's called "How to make friends and influence people" -- how about that.
Most of my friends ridicule the fact that anyone may need such a book. I'm pretty good with tech matters, I can remember facts and figures easily enough, but I'm always trying to get my head around people. I find that more difficult than any other operation in the cockpit .But I believe all things can be trained.
I think that was an absolutely excellent post. Most pilots develop a keen feel for techical matters -- all knowledge combined into a sense of knowing what needs to be done, and how, factoring in the many variables encountered. LnS seems to have developed that same keen feel when it comes to human matters. Bravo!
One of the best books; that is to say one of the books that have taught me the most about flying, is not flying-related at all. It's called "How to make friends and influence people" -- how about that.
Most of my friends ridicule the fact that anyone may need such a book. I'm pretty good with tech matters, I can remember facts and figures easily enough, but I'm always trying to get my head around people. I find that more difficult than any other operation in the cockpit .But I believe all things can be trained.
Today, cleared onto runway, him head down., me lights and strobes please. Him, No, its not SOP. Me, please do it or I will. I will take it up with CP.
A note on CRM courses, specifically the sections on human interactions. If your course does not involve role-play, it can be worse than useless. It could be that the F/O in the above was exposed to the standard Transport Canada CRM course, including the dangers of deviating from SOPs. Putting a bunch of scenarios in front of people and making them think about how to respond to them will help ensure understanding of how CRM is supposed to work. My course has a half a dozen scenarios, ranging from a Garuda like scenario to one similar to the above post.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good posts from Centaurus.
The best mix on the flt deck is always 2 senior guys with nothing to prove to each other ie.flat gradient,non-combatant.They neednt be friends or even know each other.Through experience and equanimity,theyre almost able to communicate telepathically,predict each others thoughts and actions.Flat gradient combatant can be as dangerous as steep gradient passive-aggressive.
Very often a stroppy FO will be testing you and will quickly come round after you pass the test.If this isnt the case and hes just a stroppy SOB,then the skipper must read the riot act or the situation spirals out of control quickly.If still no response,then offload the SOB.
The best mix on the flt deck is always 2 senior guys with nothing to prove to each other ie.flat gradient,non-combatant.They neednt be friends or even know each other.Through experience and equanimity,theyre almost able to communicate telepathically,predict each others thoughts and actions.Flat gradient combatant can be as dangerous as steep gradient passive-aggressive.
Very often a stroppy FO will be testing you and will quickly come round after you pass the test.If this isnt the case and hes just a stroppy SOB,then the skipper must read the riot act or the situation spirals out of control quickly.If still no response,then offload the SOB.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If still no response,then offload the SOB.
Of course he went running the the fleet manager and complained, however it did no good as this turkey had a long previous record of being a malcontent.
He was sent home for three months with no pay.
Never saw him again, either.
Take the initiative
Before flying with an FO I haven't flown with I ensure I have a few quiet words with him either in the crew room or on the flight deck well before departure time. I start by saying that one of the best safety accessories on an aircraft is an FO who will speak up when and as required. I then go on to say that I expect adherence to SOPs and good check list control. I finish by asking which sector(s) he'd like.
Cilba
Cilba
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
accessories on an aircraft is an FO who will speak up when and as required.
It takes skill that some do not have, to know when you should button your lips and let the captain run the ship. Constant hinting by an F/O may mean you are indeed a lousy captain or he loves to show "assertiveness" because he simply cannot stop being a back seat driver..
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A democracy? Yup, in todays politics democracy seems to be where you ask everyone their opinion and then make your own decision anyway. That's not democratic government. It is, however captaincy.
As FO yes thanks, it's nice to be asked, however I do not expect, nor want actually, the responsability of making the decision.
At the moment probably 80% of the time I get it right (I'm not new any more, it used to be 80% wrong!). When that's nearer 100% (nobody's perfect!) I'd like to be captain. Until then feel free to agree with my suggestion at will, but overule at necessity, and then show me how it's done.
Prevent me from suggesting and rule me out of the loop, allow me to command and rule yourself out of the loop.
Nobody said it was an easy job!
As FO yes thanks, it's nice to be asked, however I do not expect, nor want actually, the responsability of making the decision.
At the moment probably 80% of the time I get it right (I'm not new any more, it used to be 80% wrong!). When that's nearer 100% (nobody's perfect!) I'd like to be captain. Until then feel free to agree with my suggestion at will, but overule at necessity, and then show me how it's done.
Prevent me from suggesting and rule me out of the loop, allow me to command and rule yourself out of the loop.
Nobody said it was an easy job!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T'was F/O's handling sector. In the cruise IMC. Then we lost all airframe anti-ice. As it was his sector I asked him what he would like to do?
Response: "What the hell are you asking me for? You are the Captain!"
Nice!
Response: "What the hell are you asking me for? You are the Captain!"
Nice!
I think I would have asked the same thing Kelly. I expect the F/O to manage the aircraft as if they are in charge, right until I take over.
On another note, when an F/O, I have on occasion said "If you feel uncomfortable, go ahead and take over, because if this goes sideways, I'm going to leave you holding the blame."
One important thing an F/O does need to be able to do is quickly and completely switch to PNF mode after hearing "I have control".
On another note, when an F/O, I have on occasion said "If you feel uncomfortable, go ahead and take over, because if this goes sideways, I'm going to leave you holding the blame."
One important thing an F/O does need to be able to do is quickly and completely switch to PNF mode after hearing "I have control".
With all due respect what about prima donna captains? Far more a safety/CRM issue lets face it.
I have flown with Captains that quite frankly I wouldn't trust in charge of a lego set never mind a twin jet.. but there you go.
I have flown with Captains that quite frankly I wouldn't trust in charge of a lego set never mind a twin jet.. but there you go.
Years ago when I was an F/O there were two instances when it was my sector and things got a little difficult due to adverse weather and I looked over to the LH seat for supreme guidance and all I got was a blank look in one case and "It's all yours ace, I couldn't do it any better!" in the other.
The first case was an approach at night to YPPH (Perth) in a typical nor-westerly howler with driving rain and the X-wind over my limit and a go around from in the flare due a passing downpour the second was a landing at the VTBD (Bangkok), in squally conditions, when the B747 decided to aquaplane after landing and proceed down the runway a little sideways. It was several years before the QF1 incident.
Neither Captain showed any interest in taking over and left me to sort it out. The last thing on my mind was to say something like, "You're the Captain you sort it out."
The first case was an approach at night to YPPH (Perth) in a typical nor-westerly howler with driving rain and the X-wind over my limit and a go around from in the flare due a passing downpour the second was a landing at the VTBD (Bangkok), in squally conditions, when the B747 decided to aquaplane after landing and proceed down the runway a little sideways. It was several years before the QF1 incident.
Neither Captain showed any interest in taking over and left me to sort it out. The last thing on my mind was to say something like, "You're the Captain you sort it out."
Last edited by Bullethead; 31st May 2009 at 08:48.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been reading all these excellent posts with great interest. It just goes to show, I guess, how complicated it can be. CRM is terrific; but it in the end is put into play by humans..and that means unavoidable flaws. It's how we react and adapt to these flaws that makes it all work in the end. As an F/O getting close to having my first command I have been watching with great interest how my Captains manage our flights. I have seen lately two opposing styles; and I have been conscious of my actions in each situation: One Captain is very much in command. He will micromange everything to the point where basically all input is a one-way street. I get along with him great on a personal level, though. He was hired as a direct entry Captain. Another one I have flown a fair bit lately is an excellent study. He is in his late 20's, and this is his first command. He uses his F/O's as a resource. He will brief an approach, or an arrival, and will more often than not turn to me and ask if I have anything to add. If I do, he listens and takes it all in and then makes his decision. I appreciate how he interacts with me in managing the flight, and I appreciate that he is very confident in making his decision.
These are very simple examples, but one of the hardest things to do as an F/O is to not "mold" yourself to the particular captain you happen to be flying with that trip. I don't adjust my personality to the guy next to me...I am always just myself and by being consistent, I have (I think) the trust of my commanders; they know what they are going to get. It is not always so easy; but my job is to help make the flight a safe one. It takes two, and I hope that when my turn for a Command position comes around I will be able to draw on all my experiences in a positive way.
Not really sure where I was going with that.... just got me thinking when I read the original post. I know people like that, and I have flown with people like that. And trying to manage such aggressive personalities is really difficult: I guess we all have to establish our boundaries, and be consistent in our actions. It is always difficult to cross the line between "having a nice fireside chat" and actually going to the company or operations or crewing or CP etc. But it sometimes has to be done and we do it hoping something positive will come about.
Done with my little rant
These are very simple examples, but one of the hardest things to do as an F/O is to not "mold" yourself to the particular captain you happen to be flying with that trip. I don't adjust my personality to the guy next to me...I am always just myself and by being consistent, I have (I think) the trust of my commanders; they know what they are going to get. It is not always so easy; but my job is to help make the flight a safe one. It takes two, and I hope that when my turn for a Command position comes around I will be able to draw on all my experiences in a positive way.
Not really sure where I was going with that.... just got me thinking when I read the original post. I know people like that, and I have flown with people like that. And trying to manage such aggressive personalities is really difficult: I guess we all have to establish our boundaries, and be consistent in our actions. It is always difficult to cross the line between "having a nice fireside chat" and actually going to the company or operations or crewing or CP etc. But it sometimes has to be done and we do it hoping something positive will come about.
Done with my little rant