NLP in cockpit com
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... still think the subj is interesting!
"... and i was thinking about how film directors are capable of creating emotion with stimulating only the 2 senses... and I'm not talking about the "Bravura" of the actors, I'm thinking about CG movie where everything is created!"
Yes and if we consider that in a movie theather on a first release there are more than 100s of people almost reacting at the same time at one stimulation!
... we understand there's nothing to create out of the blue expecially when we are talking about CRM, but it would be possible that the next step of CRM would be oriented on creating emotion in the cockpit for every phases of flight in order to boost concentrations, our capability to receive stimuli...etc!
... that doesn't mean that when i grow-up i want to be a film director ... still wanna be a pilot!
Yes and if we consider that in a movie theather on a first release there are more than 100s of people almost reacting at the same time at one stimulation!
... we understand there's nothing to create out of the blue expecially when we are talking about CRM, but it would be possible that the next step of CRM would be oriented on creating emotion in the cockpit for every phases of flight in order to boost concentrations, our capability to receive stimuli...etc!
... that doesn't mean that when i grow-up i want to be a film director ... still wanna be a pilot!
It's a very good question concerning NLP. Firestorm has given a pretty good account of it in a basic way. For those of you searching foe scientific or empirical evidence that NLP (or indeed Transactional Analysis which was not the predecessor to NLP) works, then just like any science of the mind, you wont find any. Just like any personality tools like Myers Briggs, SDI etc all we have to go on is that the theory seems to be pretty close to the real results we achieve.
We now use NLP to an extent and have done for about a year now. In the right hands it is very powerful stuff, but you will never get/want everyone in the cockpit doing it, and if you did maybe the results could be quite unfavourable. One problem with NLP techniques is that you CAN influence the outcome of a decision inorder that it meets your own idea. Now think about the consequences of that for a moment if you are wrong.
In general it is a practise that could stifle free thought and limit effective problem solving within a team. Where it is very useful is reinforcing the language used when you are trying to express certain safety concerns you may have, ie you are trying to be assertive in a situation where you think it is very important that the Captain knows your stance on the matter. Like many new skills we can pick up from CRM and Human Factors, it is a life skill that has many applications in day to day living, moreso than in the cockpit.
NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it.
Flipster
you made me laugh a lot.
Thats an NLP joke right? (bye the way mate expect a pm we need to talk and my phone numbers changed and I've lost yours )
Well done Buzz, it is not often that topics on this forum get in to their second page. Keep thinking
We now use NLP to an extent and have done for about a year now. In the right hands it is very powerful stuff, but you will never get/want everyone in the cockpit doing it, and if you did maybe the results could be quite unfavourable. One problem with NLP techniques is that you CAN influence the outcome of a decision inorder that it meets your own idea. Now think about the consequences of that for a moment if you are wrong.
In general it is a practise that could stifle free thought and limit effective problem solving within a team. Where it is very useful is reinforcing the language used when you are trying to express certain safety concerns you may have, ie you are trying to be assertive in a situation where you think it is very important that the Captain knows your stance on the matter. Like many new skills we can pick up from CRM and Human Factors, it is a life skill that has many applications in day to day living, moreso than in the cockpit.
NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it.
Flipster
you made me laugh a lot.
However, I doubt too many facilitators would be as bold to label it as NLP - I have tried but it often falls on deaf ears.
Thats an NLP joke right? (bye the way mate expect a pm we need to talk and my phone numbers changed and I've lost yours )Well done Buzz, it is not often that topics on this forum get in to their second page. Keep thinking
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Just checking ....
Roger,
I don't think anyone suggested that TA was a predecessor to NLP although I did ask if anyone remembered TA, another fad that seems to have sunk without a trace. And given that NLP dates back to the 1970s it can hardly be called 'brand new', surely?
However, I digress.
Can you just clarify a couple of items. You say you have been using NLP for about a year but that you will never (get) want everyone using it and that the results might be unfavourable if you did. This seems a bit contradictory. Can you clarify?
You give an example of NLP in association with assertiveness. What was wrong with the initial approach to assertiveness that it should need an NLP graft? Assertiveness is another 'fad' but is actually one that can be used to develop insight and bring about behavioural change.
Thanks
I don't think anyone suggested that TA was a predecessor to NLP although I did ask if anyone remembered TA, another fad that seems to have sunk without a trace. And given that NLP dates back to the 1970s it can hardly be called 'brand new', surely?
However, I digress.
Can you just clarify a couple of items. You say you have been using NLP for about a year but that you will never (get) want everyone using it and that the results might be unfavourable if you did. This seems a bit contradictory. Can you clarify?
You give an example of NLP in association with assertiveness. What was wrong with the initial approach to assertiveness that it should need an NLP graft? Assertiveness is another 'fad' but is actually one that can be used to develop insight and bring about behavioural change.
Thanks
Turbocharged
Thanks for your comments. I am a little short of time right now so I will get back to you when I can with a more extensive answer if needed.
Firstly with TA, you are right, its use does seem to have diminished with some organisations. I actually like it and it has great parallels when you use it in discussions concerning cockpit and team gradients.
As regards NLP, I did not mean to be contradictory. Somebody who is proficient in the use of NLP can heavily influence the opinion and action of others. I spent 6 days with Richard Bandler the co-founder of NLP on one of his advanced programs and it was both excellent and scary at the same time. The undoubted ability to influence the decision making processes of others has both good and bad points.
The reason I said you will never 'get' all people to use it in the cockpit, is that because it is seen as being a particularly 'soft skill', there are those amongst us who fly that think it is a pile of horse do dah, its all psychobabble and there is nothing in it. Those types will never even try to apply the concepts of NLP either in the cockpit or in life in general, as a simple result of not believing it has any credibility. The more I have looked at its use in aviation, the more I consider that it would be very difficult to have two NLP practioners actively using the concepts of NLP on each other in the cockpit on a routine basis (It could be argued that the situation would not arise as a great part of NLP is actually on a self help basis and does not necessarily have to be applied to others.) Hence my comment that you may not 'want' everyone to be well versed in its principles.
I would not agree that assertiveness is another fad but would agree with the last part of the sentence. What you rightly say are also outcomes of effective use of NLP. NLP is really just another tool to add to the skill set required to achieve your aims. It is a very powerful tool however, and with the example of assertiveness, the language you use (as per the concepts of NLP) can drastically improve your chance of getting your message across to another individual. NLP has a place in the cockpit, but the more I learn, the more I feel its usefulness has limits.
gotta go.
bye the way, ref that 'TV magician' do you mean PM?, everyone has to make a buck, and he makes loads out of it, but away from the TV glitz, he is a very serious and talented guy.
Thanks for your comments. I am a little short of time right now so I will get back to you when I can with a more extensive answer if needed.
Firstly with TA, you are right, its use does seem to have diminished with some organisations. I actually like it and it has great parallels when you use it in discussions concerning cockpit and team gradients.
As regards NLP, I did not mean to be contradictory. Somebody who is proficient in the use of NLP can heavily influence the opinion and action of others. I spent 6 days with Richard Bandler the co-founder of NLP on one of his advanced programs and it was both excellent and scary at the same time. The undoubted ability to influence the decision making processes of others has both good and bad points.
The reason I said you will never 'get' all people to use it in the cockpit, is that because it is seen as being a particularly 'soft skill', there are those amongst us who fly that think it is a pile of horse do dah, its all psychobabble and there is nothing in it. Those types will never even try to apply the concepts of NLP either in the cockpit or in life in general, as a simple result of not believing it has any credibility. The more I have looked at its use in aviation, the more I consider that it would be very difficult to have two NLP practioners actively using the concepts of NLP on each other in the cockpit on a routine basis (It could be argued that the situation would not arise as a great part of NLP is actually on a self help basis and does not necessarily have to be applied to others.) Hence my comment that you may not 'want' everyone to be well versed in its principles.
You give an example of NLP in association with assertiveness. What was wrong with the initial approach to assertiveness that it should need an NLP graft? Assertiveness is another 'fad' but is actually one that can be used to develop insight and bring about behavioural change.
gotta go.
bye the way, ref that 'TV magician' do you mean PM?, everyone has to make a buck, and he makes loads out of it, but away from the TV glitz, he is a very serious and talented guy.
Last edited by Roger Sofarover; 7th Apr 2009 at 16:13.
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Thanks Roger
Try to learn how to fall with style!
Jokes apart I was just reading some stuff on how to prepare for an airline interview and this magic 3 letters NLP come out. Since I really didn’t know anything about it but truly willing to get as much information as possible for my interview, I tried to understand the meaning of them (you’ll never know maybe HR can ask questions on that!).
And then happened that I kept reading those stuff and while doing that I was projecting those information on a day-by-day cockpit scenario, initially just on the non-verbal aspect of the cockpit comm.. How many times pilots use hands to underline verbal messages? For example the so common PM’s 1000ft call prior level off it’s often accompanied by the use of one finger (hopefully not the middle one!) to get PF’s attention on the remaining 1000ft to go!
Someone says flying it’s a mix of fascinating emotions beginning from the romantic idea of gravity winning, cloud chasing and continuing with the much more realistic needs of how bigger is my wallet at the end of the month! That said, probably not only the non-verbal comm. can influence the cockpit interaction but also kinesthetic/feelings stimulation can create a cockpit atmosphere where pilots are really willing to belong! How many times you felt uncomfortable in the cockpit? (seem a common question in an interview!)
And since NLP is not brand new stuff and I’m not a brand new pilot either but still relatively young and green I thought someone already had come out with the same representation as mine.
Reading the post it appears everybody knows what it is but since it’s not science there’s a silent fear to put it in the cockpit! Probably it’s true, these are already a lot of information in CRM courses that introducing not science technique will definitely increase the cost/effectiveness to a level not needed especially in this particular economic moment.
Is there a knack to making an award-winning best cockpit atmosphere airline contest? Don’t know, if not in the front maybe in the back of a cockpit cause this knack, so far it’s pretty entertaining, at least enough to fill 2 PPrune pages! And by the way, people pay money to see a film that’s entertaining, also during economic crises.
If it never being done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done
Try to learn how to fall with style!
Jokes apart I was just reading some stuff on how to prepare for an airline interview and this magic 3 letters NLP come out. Since I really didn’t know anything about it but truly willing to get as much information as possible for my interview, I tried to understand the meaning of them (you’ll never know maybe HR can ask questions on that!).
And then happened that I kept reading those stuff and while doing that I was projecting those information on a day-by-day cockpit scenario, initially just on the non-verbal aspect of the cockpit comm.. How many times pilots use hands to underline verbal messages? For example the so common PM’s 1000ft call prior level off it’s often accompanied by the use of one finger (hopefully not the middle one!) to get PF’s attention on the remaining 1000ft to go!
Someone says flying it’s a mix of fascinating emotions beginning from the romantic idea of gravity winning, cloud chasing and continuing with the much more realistic needs of how bigger is my wallet at the end of the month! That said, probably not only the non-verbal comm. can influence the cockpit interaction but also kinesthetic/feelings stimulation can create a cockpit atmosphere where pilots are really willing to belong! How many times you felt uncomfortable in the cockpit? (seem a common question in an interview!)
And since NLP is not brand new stuff and I’m not a brand new pilot either but still relatively young and green I thought someone already had come out with the same representation as mine.
Reading the post it appears everybody knows what it is but since it’s not science there’s a silent fear to put it in the cockpit! Probably it’s true, these are already a lot of information in CRM courses that introducing not science technique will definitely increase the cost/effectiveness to a level not needed especially in this particular economic moment.
Is there a knack to making an award-winning best cockpit atmosphere airline contest? Don’t know, if not in the front maybe in the back of a cockpit cause this knack, so far it’s pretty entertaining, at least enough to fill 2 PPrune pages! And by the way, people pay money to see a film that’s entertaining, also during economic crises.
If it never being done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done
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new cockpit design
The interaction between technology and the study of the human behavior/reaction transform the old needle instruments in the new glass cockpit HUD/HOTAS, toys that pilots love! Powerful graphics computers create realistic images in our displays and nice voices are reminding us action (i.e. to lower the gear) in order to net-share SA. And what about using the information to create sequence of emotions followed by sequence of actions! True is feelings are different for each one of us and putting all these together can be an absurd number, but mathematicians know how to handle that, because if you throw some big numbers at something and then you have to be able to handle them then it makes you think about the problem in different ways.
Last edited by wall-e; 8th Apr 2009 at 06:53.
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Roger Sofraover
"For those of you searching foe scientific or empirical evidence that NLP (or indeed Transactional Analysis which was not the predecessor to NLP) works, then just like any science of the mind, you wont find any. Just like any personality tools like Myers Briggs, SDI etc all we have to go on is that the theory seems to be pretty close to the real results we achieve."
First of all, NLP is not a science of the mind. Like 'Dianetics', it is a pseudoscience. Psychology is a science and is all about empirical evidence. The 'real results' NLP achieves (the same claim is made of homeopathy) should be testable scientifically. They should be reliable and valid.
The claims made by NLP about representations systems are quite extraordinary. Not only are they antitheoretical, they have been largely falsified. Bandler and Grinder's ideas about eye movements and representativonal systems have been thoroughly discredited by research and have no scientific support.
"NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it."
Actually NLP is a bit of a rehash - it was based on observation of three psychotherapists. It is not brand new, having been born in the 1970s. And psychiatrists probably don't even think about it. They work more at the level of drug treatments for (usually) serious conditions. If psychologists dislike it, then it is because it is unscientific.
I despair when aviation safety reduced to the level of a pseudoscience. What we are really talking about is effective communication - that's all! No buzzwords required.
"For those of you searching foe scientific or empirical evidence that NLP (or indeed Transactional Analysis which was not the predecessor to NLP) works, then just like any science of the mind, you wont find any. Just like any personality tools like Myers Briggs, SDI etc all we have to go on is that the theory seems to be pretty close to the real results we achieve."
First of all, NLP is not a science of the mind. Like 'Dianetics', it is a pseudoscience. Psychology is a science and is all about empirical evidence. The 'real results' NLP achieves (the same claim is made of homeopathy) should be testable scientifically. They should be reliable and valid.
The claims made by NLP about representations systems are quite extraordinary. Not only are they antitheoretical, they have been largely falsified. Bandler and Grinder's ideas about eye movements and representativonal systems have been thoroughly discredited by research and have no scientific support.
"NLP is not a rehash of old ideas. It is brand new and Psychiatrist's hate it."
Actually NLP is a bit of a rehash - it was based on observation of three psychotherapists. It is not brand new, having been born in the 1970s. And psychiatrists probably don't even think about it. They work more at the level of drug treatments for (usually) serious conditions. If psychologists dislike it, then it is because it is unscientific.
I despair when aviation safety reduced to the level of a pseudoscience. What we are really talking about is effective communication - that's all! No buzzwords required.
Last edited by HigherSights; 8th Apr 2009 at 08:55. Reason: sp
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Just joking Buzz
Buzz sorry i was just joking!
I think it's a really interesting thread and the specific knowledge shown so far seems to be pretty high too!
... and keeping to an emotional level and projected in a long-haul cockpit (HKG-LHR) just 40' or 50' prior landing!
If it is possible, wouldn't it be useful to teach the crews how to recall previous positive emotions in order to generate a sort of "Peak State" (or Action Potential) capable of boosting their performance just before landing? (... and I'm not referring to Italian expressos or energy drink!
)
I think it's a really interesting thread and the specific knowledge shown so far seems to be pretty high too!
... and keeping to an emotional level and projected in a long-haul cockpit (HKG-LHR) just 40' or 50' prior landing!
If it is possible, wouldn't it be useful to teach the crews how to recall previous positive emotions in order to generate a sort of "Peak State" (or Action Potential) capable of boosting their performance just before landing? (... and I'm not referring to Italian expressos or energy drink!
)
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Roger,
I'm still waiting for yr PM - as it happens, I agree with most you have said. It would certainly be interesting to have 2 good NLP practioners in the cockpit togther! But I wouldn't count as such a person - I am only an experimenter ... and I was cr@p!
flipster
I'm still waiting for yr PM - as it happens, I agree with most you have said. It would certainly be interesting to have 2 good NLP practioners in the cockpit togther! But I wouldn't count as such a person - I am only an experimenter ... and I was cr@p!
flipster
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Wall-e don't worry
Wall-e
sorry if i didn't promptly reply to your post but I'm trying to figure out what do I have to do when i grow up!
... and I think there are a lot of more qualified people that should continue this thread if they consider it worthy!
that all folks!
sorry if i didn't promptly reply to your post but I'm trying to figure out what do I have to do when i grow up!
... and I think there are a lot of more qualified people that should continue this thread if they consider it worthy!
that all folks!
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Anthony Robbins
Howdy there
Since the topic is NLP ... I think this is the appropriate spot where to ask about Tony Robbins. What do you think about his performance?
Since the topic is NLP ... I think this is the appropriate spot where to ask about Tony Robbins. What do you think about his performance?
Instead of looking for a ‘brand new’ cockpit communication to meet the ‘sterile cockpit’ concept, we could look at what previously has been done successfully
Of course, this concept would never have got off the ground had crews exercised proper flight deck discipline.
Nature abhors a vacuum (quiet cockpit) and so crews are now told to verbalise what they see on the instrument panel, MCP and FMA visual displays. The theory of the sterile cockpit is now replaced by fly-by-mouth.
