Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
The Cooler King
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OK.....I will admit first of all that I haven't read through all 100+ posts on this thread.
I understand from listening to the audio that the Iberia decided not to de-ice.
Playing devil's advocate here, and I know about "better safe than sorry" but....
Does the A340 have a de-ice advisory on the ECAM and if so, are there any airlines out there who's SOPs state that de-icing should only be carried out if this caution is displayed?
Just wondering if there was a tech or beancounter decision as to why the crew decided to proceed when all around them were de-icing.
How much does it cost at KBOS these days for a de-ice?
I understand from listening to the audio that the Iberia decided not to de-ice.
Playing devil's advocate here, and I know about "better safe than sorry" but....
Does the A340 have a de-ice advisory on the ECAM and if so, are there any airlines out there who's SOPs state that de-icing should only be carried out if this caution is displayed?
Just wondering if there was a tech or beancounter decision as to why the crew decided to proceed when all around them were de-icing.
How much does it cost at KBOS these days for a de-ice?
Last edited by Farrell; 5th Dec 2007 at 13:45.
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Plastic Bug, in response to your question...
"If this aircraft was so heavily laden with snow, where are the other witnesses?"
I believe this is post no. 38 .....
"I was on a later BOS-LHR service and the Iberia situation was mentioned by our ground staff. All aircraft required de-icing last night. Virgin Aer Lingus and BA were fighting for the only available rig at the international terminal."
"If this aircraft was so heavily laden with snow, where are the other witnesses?"
I believe this is post no. 38 .....
"I was on a later BOS-LHR service and the Iberia situation was mentioned by our ground staff. All aircraft required de-icing last night. Virgin Aer Lingus and BA were fighting for the only available rig at the international terminal."
Last edited by everynowandthen; 5th Dec 2007 at 13:52. Reason: missed a bit..
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Previous Boston accident
Back in the '70's, a Britannia at max take weight tried to depart from Logan to the UK.
It was snowing and the a/c had been de-iced but between completion and take off, the runway was changed so by the time they were airborne, the horizontal surfaces were covered in snow again. The poor old Brit was never designed to cope with severe icing plus they then encountered wind shear. Only the Flight Enginneer, miraculously, survived the accident when they flew into rising ground. I lost many good friends that night.
Amongst other things I now sell aircraft de-icing equipment to airlines, and airports. I have also been trained on how to de-ice. Having also flight operating experience it's a no brainer that you should start with wings/tailplane clean. It doesn't matter if you have snow, snow/ ice or ice only on them, get rid of it. That way, assuming nothing else goes wrong, one take off will be followed by one landing and nobody killed.
However, the forgoing debate on de-ice or not to de-ice is stimulating. I only wish that everyone would grasp the risk if you dont. As I tell those I meet on the ground ''You only get one chance normally to get it right, if you dont de-ice or you do it badly, you will watch the accident happen''
It was snowing and the a/c had been de-iced but between completion and take off, the runway was changed so by the time they were airborne, the horizontal surfaces were covered in snow again. The poor old Brit was never designed to cope with severe icing plus they then encountered wind shear. Only the Flight Enginneer, miraculously, survived the accident when they flew into rising ground. I lost many good friends that night.
Amongst other things I now sell aircraft de-icing equipment to airlines, and airports. I have also been trained on how to de-ice. Having also flight operating experience it's a no brainer that you should start with wings/tailplane clean. It doesn't matter if you have snow, snow/ ice or ice only on them, get rid of it. That way, assuming nothing else goes wrong, one take off will be followed by one landing and nobody killed.
However, the forgoing debate on de-ice or not to de-ice is stimulating. I only wish that everyone would grasp the risk if you dont. As I tell those I meet on the ground ''You only get one chance normally to get it right, if you dont de-ice or you do it badly, you will watch the accident happen''
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I don’t know what happened at KBOS, I wasn’t there.
But I know that nothing good ever comes out of a blame culture, and this seems to be a very bad example of a blame culture. Everyone pure and white, washing their hands at sink. Blame cultures only lead to the real reasons behind the incidents being hidden, by placing all the responsibility on the individual, without trying to understand why he acted like he did. People rarely deliberately make unsafe decisions, more often it’s the system that they are in that causes them to do so. What pressures were the crew subjected to, didn’t he know better and so on.
Read Sidney Dekker’s The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error – a very good book about how you should go about trying to understand why pilots did what they did.
He talks about getting into the tunnel with the “incident” crew, and trying to understand why the actions they took made sense to them at the time.
Once you understand why they did what they did, you are very close to understanding the real cause.
Does anyone here know why the Iberia crew felt it was the right thing to do?
Neither do I!
I see it like this this:
No one in their right mind would depart with snow on their wings – but they apparently did.
So there must have been some strong forces at play here, and we need to understand what they were, if we want to become better pilots.
Just calling them Cowboys – that is just so old school – and will do us no good, maybe with the exception of making us feel better than them, and we probably are'nt.
But I know that nothing good ever comes out of a blame culture, and this seems to be a very bad example of a blame culture. Everyone pure and white, washing their hands at sink. Blame cultures only lead to the real reasons behind the incidents being hidden, by placing all the responsibility on the individual, without trying to understand why he acted like he did. People rarely deliberately make unsafe decisions, more often it’s the system that they are in that causes them to do so. What pressures were the crew subjected to, didn’t he know better and so on.
Read Sidney Dekker’s The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error – a very good book about how you should go about trying to understand why pilots did what they did.
He talks about getting into the tunnel with the “incident” crew, and trying to understand why the actions they took made sense to them at the time.
Once you understand why they did what they did, you are very close to understanding the real cause.
Does anyone here know why the Iberia crew felt it was the right thing to do?
Neither do I!
I see it like this this:
No one in their right mind would depart with snow on their wings – but they apparently did.
So there must have been some strong forces at play here, and we need to understand what they were, if we want to become better pilots.
Just calling them Cowboys – that is just so old school – and will do us no good, maybe with the exception of making us feel better than them, and we probably are'nt.
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Farrell wrote:
... a lot less than a crash
Just wondering if there was a tech or beancounter decision as to why the crew decided to proceed when all around them were de-icing.
How much does it cost at KBOS these days for a de-ice?
How much does it cost at KBOS these days for a de-ice?
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Two aircraft at the gate awaiting departure - why not a "buddy system" wherein each provides an advisory, to the best of their ability, on the condition of the other?
Seems to me to be better than ignorance (and arrogance...)
Seems to me to be better than ignorance (and arrogance...)
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Role of ATC.
Ok heard the ATC tape and the wx thanks for the link, excellent to hear it and changed my view.
Was there a follow up by Boston ATC ground to the BA Captains concerns ?
Why not ?
I am listening to the ground control and have not heard any further mention of it on ground.
If there had been an incident/accident. This would be addressed as the controllers were clearly very busy with delays,wx,deicing and slots.
Now we are getting some more facts and the plot thickens. Still need more facts, though.
Could it happen to me ?
Yes but it would have had to be a really bad day ( stressed and fatigued ) to not listen to the warning signs and perhaps let my ego or time,fuel pressures get in the way. Maybe an argument with the wife.
As said I would have said " Thanks BA " then to clearance " Yeah lets go for a de-ice and an anti-ice.
It is not easy to say " yeah I made a mistake " and be open about it.
It is my belief that this is one of the most imortant aspects of Error management training.
As we know how theses errors can lead us to the next hole of Swisscheese.
Was there a follow up by Boston ATC ground to the BA Captains concerns ?
Why not ?
I am listening to the ground control and have not heard any further mention of it on ground.
If there had been an incident/accident. This would be addressed as the controllers were clearly very busy with delays,wx,deicing and slots.
Now we are getting some more facts and the plot thickens. Still need more facts, though.
Could it happen to me ?
Yes but it would have had to be a really bad day ( stressed and fatigued ) to not listen to the warning signs and perhaps let my ego or time,fuel pressures get in the way. Maybe an argument with the wife.
As said I would have said " Thanks BA " then to clearance " Yeah lets go for a de-ice and an anti-ice.
It is not easy to say " yeah I made a mistake " and be open about it.
It is my belief that this is one of the most imortant aspects of Error management training.
As we know how theses errors can lead us to the next hole of Swisscheese.
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DK FCI,
Whatever your thoughts on "blame culture", I am not sure Sidney would be so pleased to find his work cited as a reason why people with snow on their wings wouldn't deice in a snowstorm, when it was suggested to them many times and everybody else did. Could it be that you are misinterpreting?
PBL
Whatever your thoughts on "blame culture", I am not sure Sidney would be so pleased to find his work cited as a reason why people with snow on their wings wouldn't deice in a snowstorm, when it was suggested to them many times and everybody else did. Could it be that you are misinterpreting?
PBL
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Mach Trim wrote,
from the LiveATC recording for Boston Ground:
23:25 IB6166 is told by Ground that British Airways advise that they (IB) may wish to check their wings for de-icing.
23:27.25 IB6166 tells ground that they have checked their wings and they don't need de-icing.
DD
I am listening to the ground control and have not heard any further mention of it on ground.
23:25 IB6166 is told by Ground that British Airways advise that they (IB) may wish to check their wings for de-icing.
23:27.25 IB6166 tells ground that they have checked their wings and they don't need de-icing.
DD
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This is more of a who to believe situation clearly favoured by the conditions of weather at that moment.
If like LTD says forms of snow where clearly being built in the wing surface then very bad for the IB capt. But what if the IB capt did check their surfaces, you normally check the upper wing from inside the passenger cabin, and as they had also recently refuelled the warming up of the fuel gives a temperauture exchange that is also to consider. As LTD said; it started snowing at that time!
what to be believe now or not is if the snow didnt adhere to the surface and just melted down as it would normally do after you refuel or if there was clear deposits after just a short time of snowing. Snow doesnt build up in surfaces with temperatures over 3-4º and after refuelling I dont know what temperature you have but I do think is above that. Another story is if they refuelld long ago,, or it started snowing some time ago.
Nevrtheless safety is first and with the doubt always act in accordance, and having heard the link(very good one there) I dont see a lot of arrogance in the way of saying it, except that maybe he could have called the IB pilots attention in a more of a colleague way as we should all be, and tell him what hes seeing, after all you are never gonna get told off for that.
If like LTD says forms of snow where clearly being built in the wing surface then very bad for the IB capt. But what if the IB capt did check their surfaces, you normally check the upper wing from inside the passenger cabin, and as they had also recently refuelled the warming up of the fuel gives a temperauture exchange that is also to consider. As LTD said; it started snowing at that time!
what to be believe now or not is if the snow didnt adhere to the surface and just melted down as it would normally do after you refuel or if there was clear deposits after just a short time of snowing. Snow doesnt build up in surfaces with temperatures over 3-4º and after refuelling I dont know what temperature you have but I do think is above that. Another story is if they refuelld long ago,, or it started snowing some time ago.
Nevrtheless safety is first and with the doubt always act in accordance, and having heard the link(very good one there) I dont see a lot of arrogance in the way of saying it, except that maybe he could have called the IB pilots attention in a more of a colleague way as we should all be, and tell him what hes seeing, after all you are never gonna get told off for that.
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Whatever your thoughts on "blame culture", I am not sure Sidney would be so pleased to find his work cited as a reason why people with snow on their wings wouldn't deice in a snowstorm, when it was suggested to them many times and everybody else did. Could it be that you are misinterpreting?
PBL
PBL
Hi PBL
I don’t think I’m misinterpreting Sidney, but maybe you misunderstood me.
As I am not using Sidney Dekker to advocate flying with ice on the wings. I would never try to justify that.
All I tried to say was that rather than blaming the individual, try to get in the tunnel with them, and try to understand what factors were present that would have made them think it would be reasonable to depart whit snow on the wings.
Obviously it was a mistake to depart with snow on the wings – anyone here can see that. So that is not what is interesting to me.
What intrigues me is why they did it.
I just don’t believe in the old “Pilot Error” branding, that immediately exonerates the airline, manufacturer, authorities etc. where you end up firing the culprit, and missing the real problem. That way you don’t find the root causes of the incident.
I naively think that whenever something like this happens, the crew has become their own victims, and that they actually see some perverse logic in what they are doing.
What would make a Commander of an Iberia Heavy jet; depart with snow on the wings, when as you say it should be bloody obvious that it’s a very very bad idea, especially after being warned by a freindly neighbour aircraft?
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Something similar happened to me a while ago.
The weather was somewhat similar as the one in BOS.I had done a walk around and seen the top of the wing from a step ladder.(Was a DC9)
Just a little light snow that was very easy to blow off and no ice underneath.
The captain came out and had a look.The de-icing coordinator came by and had a look at the wings and tail.
All three of us agreed de-ice was not required.Now I work for an airline where safety comes first and we felt no pressure to not de-ice or scared of causing a delay.Both of us are extremely safe and conservative pilots.
While boarding some pax mentionned to the in-charge the snow on the wings.
We explained to her that it was just a little light snow that wasn't adhearing,that both pilots and the de-icing coordinator had checked it out and determined de-icing not-required.
She came back to the cockpit 5 minutes later and told us that the back-end crew wanted to go to de-ice or they would walk!
So of course we went for a quick spray eventhough it was not required.I am sure that to this day those 4 FA's think that we were ''cowboys'' out to kill them.
I am not by any means a cowboy and some might say that I am wimpy when it comes to safety yet some guy might start a thread about Air Canada cowboys..
I just think that until we haer from the IB pilots involved we don't really know what happened and they might actually be very safety oriented guys.
On a last note I was in YVR the other night and waited 3 hours to de-ice.Lufthansa called to push...no de-ice required.Are they cowboys?No because who knows how long the acft was on the ground,did they land after the precip stopped, did the de-ice coordinator climb onto the wings and determine it was safe etc...
The weather was somewhat similar as the one in BOS.I had done a walk around and seen the top of the wing from a step ladder.(Was a DC9)
Just a little light snow that was very easy to blow off and no ice underneath.
The captain came out and had a look.The de-icing coordinator came by and had a look at the wings and tail.
All three of us agreed de-ice was not required.Now I work for an airline where safety comes first and we felt no pressure to not de-ice or scared of causing a delay.Both of us are extremely safe and conservative pilots.
While boarding some pax mentionned to the in-charge the snow on the wings.
We explained to her that it was just a little light snow that wasn't adhearing,that both pilots and the de-icing coordinator had checked it out and determined de-icing not-required.
She came back to the cockpit 5 minutes later and told us that the back-end crew wanted to go to de-ice or they would walk!
So of course we went for a quick spray eventhough it was not required.I am sure that to this day those 4 FA's think that we were ''cowboys'' out to kill them.
I am not by any means a cowboy and some might say that I am wimpy when it comes to safety yet some guy might start a thread about Air Canada cowboys..
I just think that until we haer from the IB pilots involved we don't really know what happened and they might actually be very safety oriented guys.
On a last note I was in YVR the other night and waited 3 hours to de-ice.Lufthansa called to push...no de-ice required.Are they cowboys?No because who knows how long the acft was on the ground,did they land after the precip stopped, did the de-ice coordinator climb onto the wings and determine it was safe etc...
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Idol detent says: I have ~20years/15,000hrs of experience from turboprops to 747s.
If you are trying to impress me, trust me, it’s not going to work.
If you are trying to impress me, trust me, it’s not going to work.
Robeki, please read what people are writing and stop being a wind-up merchant-it's becoming a bit tedious.
ATB
id
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DK FCI,
thanks for the clarification.
I agree it may be important to understand why he did it, because that gives insight into how to avoid such mishaps in the future.
But one can also maybe achieve the same effect by discussing it at length on PPRuNe (complete with date, location and ID so that people can listen to the tapes!), where there appear also to be pilots who do not yet understand how dangerous any wing contamination is.
The goal is the same. Who is to say which is the better mechanism?
PBL
thanks for the clarification.
I agree it may be important to understand why he did it, because that gives insight into how to avoid such mishaps in the future.
But one can also maybe achieve the same effect by discussing it at length on PPRuNe (complete with date, location and ID so that people can listen to the tapes!), where there appear also to be pilots who do not yet understand how dangerous any wing contamination is.
The goal is the same. Who is to say which is the better mechanism?
PBL
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For those of you unsure on how hard it is to do a visual and tactile inspection of wing icing here is a DOT/FAA/TC report on the topic.
Those of us on the OEM side who did some analysis related to (potential) performance of the wing with contamination are genuinely shocked to see some pilots are still not de-icing, whatever the reason.
I can't emphasize more the need for it. I know it is boring to read all the reports from cert bodies et al. on the danger of contamination and yet there is always someone who is trying to find an explanation why it was necessary to fly with it.
Cheers
Those of us on the OEM side who did some analysis related to (potential) performance of the wing with contamination are genuinely shocked to see some pilots are still not de-icing, whatever the reason.
I can't emphasize more the need for it. I know it is boring to read all the reports from cert bodies et al. on the danger of contamination and yet there is always someone who is trying to find an explanation why it was necessary to fly with it.
Cheers
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As ground engineer, I have had incidents in the past where the de-icing crew had done their work sloppily and the flight crew was actually happy that I informed them via headset about the fact. They assumed that de-icing was carried out properly, but the de-icing crew left lots of snow and ice on the wings and tail. and were ordered to come back to finish their job properly.
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I do wonder Robeki if you realize the damage you do to your own argument?
By the way I have no ax to grind with either Iberia or Ba as neither does or has paid me or denied me anything. Just wondered if you are able to see your posts as others see them?
By the way I have no ax to grind with either Iberia or Ba as neither does or has paid me or denied me anything. Just wondered if you are able to see your posts as others see them?
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Robeki was simply making a point out of what Muizemberg said, read his/her message first and youll understand what he means. Some people do make this a IB/BA conflict, atleast it looks as the ones that know a bit dont get into this matter, but I agree and support any defense from those people that use this thread to throw other stones into IB.