Early Config change

[darksecrets]

Can anyone shed any light here........ recently a B737, during initail climb, apparently retracted the flaps instead of the gear causing a low altitude stall, the pilot(s) managed to climb out but rumour is it was close.

[AEUENG]

Well without any evidence on the matter, I'd say it's probably hear say.

[J.O.]

I know of a similar incident that happened many years ago on an A320 that certainly got a crew's attention.

[useless]

i think there is some protection on a320 (slats will lock if retracted to early)

[ElNino]

It happened to an RJ recently The report is on the UK AAIB website.

[darksecrets]

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...00__g_cfaf.cfm

This happened in 2004, i'm sure it was B737, and i don't think it would have made it to the AAIB website yet! unless i've got the wrong one on the AAIB website.

[Reds Blues Greens]

I very much doubt that this occured.

The flap and gear leaver on the 737 are in completely different places, look completely different and move in different directions. The action of reaching forward to raise the gear, shortly after "positive climb" is called, is a very strong motor-programme; it is unimaginable that someone would reach down down to the centre pedstal instead and try and move the flap leaver.

Incidentally, there is a detent at the flap 1 position (for single engine go-arounds) and therefore it is impossible to raise the flaps from 5 to up in one smooth action.

Cheers,

RBG.

[Cough]

A similar event has occured in the past when operating a mixture of (mostly) flap 5 takeoffs with the odd flap 1 departure (for perf reasons) thrown in for luck.

The result is the crews become used to retracting the flaps to 1 at AA. So if you depart flap 1 (and don't think about it-distraction etc) then the flap lever gets moved at AA...

[Reds Blues Greens]

Cough, I can see how that could occur. I presume you are talking about a type other than a 737 though? (as there is no such thing as a flap 1 departure)
Also, I think the original post was about raising the flaps after take-off as supposed to the gear, rather than inadvertantly raising all the flap at Aa.
I still think this sounds completely unlikely on a 737, anyone else?
RBG

[Cough]

RBG. I fly 737 classics and have taken off using flap1.

Dunno about the NG, (I haven't flown it) but this chart, page 44 and on suggests the 737 NG can depart flap 1 as well.

[TDK mk2]

I don't know if it's brave or foolish to admit this, but I've done it - some years ago now. I was most terribly shocked by my actions and couldn't begin to explain (to myself least of all anyone else) how I could make such a mistake. What Reds Blues Greens says should be right, but I guess sometimes people do things that nobody, including themselves could have predicted. Fortuitously in my case I was flying a type in which it would only have been critical in a single engined climb situation. But I was and still am well aware of the potential implications of what I did. It was a character building experience, but not one I would like to repeat...

[Reds Blues Greens]

Thanks Cough, didn't know that.

I fly the 3/4/500 and the TO flap is strictly 5 - 15 (other wise you get the Config horn).

So is there a speed that you are meant to raise the flaps from 1 to up rather than just at Aa?

Cheers

[BOAC]

RBG - Normally:-

737-300 Config for Flaps not 1-15

400/500 Config for Flaps not 5-15

700 Config for Flaps not 1-25

I believe both of ASFKAP's 'events' have happened.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by TDK mk2

I don't know if it's brave or foolish to admit this, but I've done it - some years ago now.

I take my hat off to you sir for highlighting a personal error for the greater good of us all.

If I remember correctly, these 'motor programs' can be fouled up when one hears the stimulus, but executes the wrong motor program in response. It's a bit like making a cup of tea, turning the kettle on and then opening the fridge to get the tea bags.......

We've all done similar things where we cannot believe we did what we just did, usually caused by a slight distraction and not applying as much thought as necessary to the task in hand.

On my conversion course to the 737 I turned the right hydraulic pumps off instead of the engine anti-ice......taught me a good lesson in the sim and highlighted a possible design failure in one of Mr Boeings finest. I then started to apply what a wise old trainer had told me many moons before; "think which switch you want to move. Put your fingers on it. Check that it is the right one and then move it." Wombling wise words...

PP

[misd-agin]

Check out your clean stall speeds. Typically very close to your flaps 15, V2+15 initial climb speed.

You can takeoff with a clean wing, do a slightly slower rotation, think "accelerate" instead of "climb" and it's a fairly benign event.

Pull back (increase angle of attack) or fly out of ground effect to soon and it loses it's benigness very quickly.

Accomplished several times in the sim during the 'anything you want to do?' phase.

[J.O.]

This is why the Airbus SOPs use the call "Gear Up", but to retract flaps it's "Flaps Zero". This helps to delineate the two distinct actions.

[Roidelstein]

Pilot Pete - this is definately a bit of a design flaw on the 737 - I have come close to doing this myself at least once!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Perfectly possible, and as the law of Sod has it, if it can be done sooner or later someone will...

Let us not forget that a very similar event killed well over 100 people in a Trident back in the '70s.

[oakland]

If it can happen it will

I called to my colleague, positive climb----gear up, and then i heard the wrong sound, flap lever moving. I reached over and he realised his error.Flaps had barely moved. A 737-400, flap 5 take off.The leading edges dont move 'til you go from 1 to up so no big deal but i told him the trident story later on.
As an aside , i once got the stall warning on rotation. leading edge sensor that talks to the stall warning computer was dickie, looked up and saw amber light on leading edge indication panel, (they'd been all green earlier, sop to check)

[xetroV]

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

On my conversion course to the 737 I turned the right hydraulic pumps off instead of the engine anti-ice......taught me a good lesson in the sim and highlighted a possible design failure in one of Mr Boeings finest.

You're not the only one: I have been about 0.00001 seconds from making that same mistake myself, however not in a simulator. This certainly is a pretty serious design flaw in the 737. In the sim I also once switched Bus Transfer i.s.o. Standby Power; put a smile on my instructors face, as he'd witnessed that one before too.

Yeah, airplane ergonomics... Reminds me of this nicety: on the MD-11 glareshield there are two round buttons to set the QNH and the minimums on the PFD. The BAROSET button is on top, the MINIMUMS button below. Nice, except on the PFD itself the QNH figure is shown below, and the minimums figure is displayed on top. Now imagine this: you're flying into Quito, trying to dial in an MDA of about 9600 feet, knowing you'll have to give a huge swirl to the MINIMUMS button if you want to have it set before touchdown. So doing just that... you inadvertently reset the barometer to a QNH of 1281 millibar.