Early Config change
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Oakland.
You beat me to it.
I had an occurrence with a very experienced captain in RHS moving the flaps from 5 to 1 when I had called one to go (SOP call) missed by the PNF. He had been busy with the radio at the time and came back with an instantaneous movement of the flap lever. No hand on lever, think, then move as mentioned above. Very sound advice. I agree, no problem with rectifying the problem immediately as you mentioned.
Another good bit of advice concerns the Boeing gear lever from up to off after TO. I inadvertently from LHS moved the lever a gnats pubic past the off detent and was amazed to hear the scream from the gear doors as they opened. The ginger beers said that in future simply move the lever back to the up position as only the doors would have moved and bobs your uncle, no problems.
You beat me to it.
I had an occurrence with a very experienced captain in RHS moving the flaps from 5 to 1 when I had called one to go (SOP call) missed by the PNF. He had been busy with the radio at the time and came back with an instantaneous movement of the flap lever. No hand on lever, think, then move as mentioned above. Very sound advice. I agree, no problem with rectifying the problem immediately as you mentioned.
Another good bit of advice concerns the Boeing gear lever from up to off after TO. I inadvertently from LHS moved the lever a gnats pubic past the off detent and was amazed to hear the scream from the gear doors as they opened. The ginger beers said that in future simply move the lever back to the up position as only the doors would have moved and bobs your uncle, no problems.
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B733's 4's, 737's & 738's can all do Flap 1 takeoffs. I've not flown 5's or 6's.
What has happened on a F1 takeoff is at the call "bug up", (to accelerate the a/c for flap retraction) the RHS pilot, who might nave been changing frequency and chatting to ATC during departure, has heard the word UP and selected Flaps UP. Scary, but true.
What has happened on a F1 takeoff is at the call "bug up", (to accelerate the a/c for flap retraction) the RHS pilot, who might nave been changing frequency and chatting to ATC during departure, has heard the word UP and selected Flaps UP. Scary, but true.
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Sadly the 737 has it's full share of ergonomic pitfalls.
Helios got caught out by the config/cabin altitude horn, and how many of us didn't say in amazement on our conversions, "That is going to kill people one day" yet the regulators have let it exist for decades.
Hydraulics and Anti ice are another, and many of us will have stopped their hand heading for the flap lever instead of the gear. The point is, most of us do stop short.
A rather fierce and unpleasant instructor used to drill into my comversion course the perils of being a multi-fingered switch-flicker. He'd bawl you out, military style, if you didn't grasp the switch with finger and thumb, pause, then move it, not flick it or push it with one finger, but pick it up move it deliberately to its new position, even the taxi light! - (oly exception is the landing lights gang bar). Seemed pedantic at the time but now I know he was right. Likewise with gear and flaps, reach out to the lever, grasp it and pause, think, is this what I want to do? then select accordingly. Takes a split second, but that little pause tells me and the other guy that a thought process is going on and is very comforting. And if you think you don't have time for all that, well, you're rushing things so SLOW DOWN! There is virtually nothing that needs doing instantaneously in aviation, there is always time for a pause - check - act sequence.
The gear lever never selects down inadvertently if you lift it out of the Up detent and put a little positive pressure on it as you slide it towards Off, the pressure ensures it drops in and doesn't skip marginally to Down. Made me jump, it did, before I remembered how that screaming skull would have done it!
Helios got caught out by the config/cabin altitude horn, and how many of us didn't say in amazement on our conversions, "That is going to kill people one day" yet the regulators have let it exist for decades.
Hydraulics and Anti ice are another, and many of us will have stopped their hand heading for the flap lever instead of the gear. The point is, most of us do stop short.
A rather fierce and unpleasant instructor used to drill into my comversion course the perils of being a multi-fingered switch-flicker. He'd bawl you out, military style, if you didn't grasp the switch with finger and thumb, pause, then move it, not flick it or push it with one finger, but pick it up move it deliberately to its new position, even the taxi light! - (oly exception is the landing lights gang bar). Seemed pedantic at the time but now I know he was right. Likewise with gear and flaps, reach out to the lever, grasp it and pause, think, is this what I want to do? then select accordingly. Takes a split second, but that little pause tells me and the other guy that a thought process is going on and is very comforting. And if you think you don't have time for all that, well, you're rushing things so SLOW DOWN! There is virtually nothing that needs doing instantaneously in aviation, there is always time for a pause - check - act sequence.
The gear lever never selects down inadvertently if you lift it out of the Up detent and put a little positive pressure on it as you slide it towards Off, the pressure ensures it drops in and doesn't skip marginally to Down. Made me jump, it did, before I remembered how that screaming skull would have done it!
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Now this is the type of subject that is really worthwhile speaking about. Of course I believe this incident happened. It has probably happened more often than we have all heard about. And yes, I have done flaps 1 takeoff in 737-200.
I agree with all of the previous posts about taking your time to manipulate a switch and being SURE that you are doing the correct one.
Someone mentioned the trident and retracting the droops as I think British pilots call them. This ended in disaster with an apology on the CVR if I am not mistaken.
Some will remember the MD80 operated by northwest airlines in the USA. It took off with no flaps or slats extended and crashed killing all but one child in Detroit.
Stall recovery on the DC9 series at one time was: FIREWALL POWER, FLAPS 15! ( low altitude stall of course)
This would give you the best of both worlds, power and increased flaps/slats. They came out really fast! (bam)
Fatigue, carelessness, inherent design flaw, the human condition and a good measure of MURPHY's Law played a part I am sure in your described incident.
j
I agree with all of the previous posts about taking your time to manipulate a switch and being SURE that you are doing the correct one.
Someone mentioned the trident and retracting the droops as I think British pilots call them. This ended in disaster with an apology on the CVR if I am not mistaken.
Some will remember the MD80 operated by northwest airlines in the USA. It took off with no flaps or slats extended and crashed killing all but one child in Detroit.
Stall recovery on the DC9 series at one time was: FIREWALL POWER, FLAPS 15! ( low altitude stall of course)
This would give you the best of both worlds, power and increased flaps/slats. They came out really fast! (bam)
Fatigue, carelessness, inherent design flaw, the human condition and a good measure of MURPHY's Law played a part I am sure in your described incident.
j
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Pilot Pete, been there, done that! I knew the instant I moved the hyd. switch that I had f****d up. The flash of the amber warning alerted the skipper to my error as well. He was cool as crazy and quietly asked what the flashing caution was......I said that it was me turning off the Hyd pump instead of the eng anti-ice.......he said he had done that as well!!
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Me too, I've done it...flown with someone that has done it. All will be well though as you'll quickly realise and after an expletive you'll turn off the real anti ice. Unless you're flying with autopilot B engaged then there is the added excitment when it disengages after loss of B hydraulic pressure
BTW, the 737 does do flap 1 departures for normal operations if performance requires and it will not sound the config horn. Unless a particular airline askes for it to be designed that way with I higly doubt.
BTW, the 737 does do flap 1 departures for normal operations if performance requires and it will not sound the config horn. Unless a particular airline askes for it to be designed that way with I higly doubt.
Bottums Up
I would be surprised if most operators haven't had some experience of this type of thing. When I first joined PPRuNe there were vociferous comments about a BAe146 operator in Australia who had such an incident. Our largest airline has had several. A troll through the relevant Accident Board will reveal that whilst it's not common it's not unheard of either.
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Pilotpete, yes, i did that thing as well, not in the simulator, in climbout during my supervision. As soon as the lights flashed amber (finger still on the switch wonderin if it was the right one) i knew what i'd done, switching them back on was not a biggie.
We had the flaps up case in our outfit lately although not instead of gear up but instead of N1 - speed 210 at AA. Apparently there was some mix up with an atc call and a minor deviation from SOPs that led to flaps being up well below flaps 1 manouvering speed. Oh, and we do flaps 1 departures on -300 and -500 as standard procedure, moved there from the flaps 5 we did previously since it is said to save a few kgs of fuel. Flaps 15 is something i should probably do sometimes to at least train it but unfortunately we dont have any performance data for that so it's been a few years since i did that.
Friend of mine in another outfit once moved flaps from landing configuration to up instead of his checklist marker on the yoke-checklist. Flying the CRJ and not the 737 so i have no idea if they have any stop gates like in the 737.
We had the flaps up case in our outfit lately although not instead of gear up but instead of N1 - speed 210 at AA. Apparently there was some mix up with an atc call and a minor deviation from SOPs that led to flaps being up well below flaps 1 manouvering speed. Oh, and we do flaps 1 departures on -300 and -500 as standard procedure, moved there from the flaps 5 we did previously since it is said to save a few kgs of fuel. Flaps 15 is something i should probably do sometimes to at least train it but unfortunately we dont have any performance data for that so it's been a few years since i did that.
Friend of mine in another outfit once moved flaps from landing configuration to up instead of his checklist marker on the yoke-checklist. Flying the CRJ and not the 737 so i have no idea if they have any stop gates like in the 737.
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jondc9:
You are mistaken.
The loss of trident 'PI' resulted in the carraige of CVR's being mandated in the UK. 'PI' did not have a CVR, which is why although we know that the inadvertant retraction of the 'droops' was a primary cause of the accident, we do not know the exact circumstances of the retraction or what was going on in the cockpit at the time, let alone why someone activated the stick shake dump.
As for 'British' pilots refering to 'them' as droops - you'll find American trident pilots would have called them the same thing (had they flown a trident), as that is the term the aircrafter producer used...
Someone mentioned the trident and retracting the droops as I think British pilots call them. This ended in disaster with an apology on the CVR if I am not mistaken
You are mistaken.
The loss of trident 'PI' resulted in the carraige of CVR's being mandated in the UK. 'PI' did not have a CVR, which is why although we know that the inadvertant retraction of the 'droops' was a primary cause of the accident, we do not know the exact circumstances of the retraction or what was going on in the cockpit at the time, let alone why someone activated the stick shake dump.
As for 'British' pilots refering to 'them' as droops - you'll find American trident pilots would have called them the same thing (had they flown a trident), as that is the term the aircrafter producer used...
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banana head:
my sincere thanks for the correction. and yes, I am sure that if tridents were flown in the US by US pilots , they too would have called "them" droops.
I must be thinking of a similiar episode in an airplane with CVR as the pilot pulling up the high lift devices was apologizing right into the ground. cannot remember what type of aircraft.
thanks again. by the way, do you favor cockpit video recorders as an accident investigation tool?
regards
jon
my sincere thanks for the correction. and yes, I am sure that if tridents were flown in the US by US pilots , they too would have called "them" droops.
I must be thinking of a similiar episode in an airplane with CVR as the pilot pulling up the high lift devices was apologizing right into the ground. cannot remember what type of aircraft.
thanks again. by the way, do you favor cockpit video recorders as an accident investigation tool?
regards
jon
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Been there - done that...
A Canberra pilot once wrote a report after returning from a mission and instead of retracting flaps after landing, jettisoning a weapon onto the taxyway!
He wrote a very thoughtful report saying that he was very experienced on the type and that although he could remember performing this action, he had no explanation for what he did.
A certain Swiss airline - now bust, did have one very good procedure. Instead of repeating the command and performing the action, Boeing style, the PNF (or assisting pilot as he was called) would check minimum or maximum speed for the configuration, call out "speed checked", perform the action and then report back "flaps are 5, or gear is up etc" thus closing the communication / action loop. This had amongst other things, the effect of slowing down manipulations by putting some thinking first.
The thing is, as fortunately has so far happened on this thread, not to condemn the pilot at fault but to look for ways to avoid this type of finger trouble in future.
FC.
He wrote a very thoughtful report saying that he was very experienced on the type and that although he could remember performing this action, he had no explanation for what he did.
A certain Swiss airline - now bust, did have one very good procedure. Instead of repeating the command and performing the action, Boeing style, the PNF (or assisting pilot as he was called) would check minimum or maximum speed for the configuration, call out "speed checked", perform the action and then report back "flaps are 5, or gear is up etc" thus closing the communication / action loop. This had amongst other things, the effect of slowing down manipulations by putting some thinking first.
The thing is, as fortunately has so far happened on this thread, not to condemn the pilot at fault but to look for ways to avoid this type of finger trouble in future.
FC.
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Originally Posted by banana head
jondc9:
You are mistaken.
The loss of trident 'PI' resulted in the carraige of CVR's being mandated in the UK. 'PI' did not have a CVR, which is why although we know that the inadvertant retraction of the 'droops' was a primary cause of the accident, we do not know the exact circumstances of the retraction or what was going on in the cockpit at the time, let alone why someone activated the stick shake dump.
As for 'British' pilots refering to 'them' as droops - you'll find American trident pilots would have called them the same thing (had they flown a trident), as that is the term the aircrafter producer used...
You are mistaken.
The loss of trident 'PI' resulted in the carraige of CVR's being mandated in the UK. 'PI' did not have a CVR, which is why although we know that the inadvertant retraction of the 'droops' was a primary cause of the accident, we do not know the exact circumstances of the retraction or what was going on in the cockpit at the time, let alone why someone activated the stick shake dump.
As for 'British' pilots refering to 'them' as droops - you'll find American trident pilots would have called them the same thing (had they flown a trident), as that is the term the aircrafter producer used...
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You youngsters don't know how lucky you are - my first aircraft was the Boeing 707-400, which had such poor performance that we made the first configuration change on leaving the second segment and retracted the flaps at 400ft. The airline also operated the 707-300 which was quite similar except that it had leading edge flaps; if an inadvertent config. change was made on this aircraft at 400ft it would have gone down, so the fleets were segregated. I believe that this policy was implemented after some incidents and the loss of an SAA 707-300. I think the point is that we are creatures of habit; usually nothing needs to be done in a hurry so take time and think about it before manipulating something, like I now have to do when driving my wife's automatic, but I still manage to stamp on the brake thinking it's the clutch!
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jondc9,
Maybe you're thinking of either of these:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0705-0&lang=en
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0623-0&lang=en
Maybe you're thinking of either of these:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0705-0&lang=en
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0623-0&lang=en
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thanks cosmo, I will check them out.
here is a good URL on the trident question:
http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tec...8(Trident).asp
I do think a human being can easily flip the wrong switch, or retract flaps at the wrong time and we must chalk it up to being human.
I flew a very nice plane at one time called the North American -Rockwell Sabreliner (40). The leading edge devices would automatically extend or retract based on the aerodynamic forces on the wing. Fancy springs calibrated for a certain relative wind/airspeed. The pilot could only control them by changing speed (aoa I suppose really). Right on the cusp of the right speed they could sort of bounce from extended to retracted and back.
I think the idea of slowing things down by calling out speed, manipulation, result and all is excellent. Sadly the chumps in charge have seen fit to do otherwise. Their rationale is that it couldn't happen that way here. Yeah, right!
fly safe
jon
here is a good URL on the trident question:
http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tec...8(Trident).asp
I do think a human being can easily flip the wrong switch, or retract flaps at the wrong time and we must chalk it up to being human.
I flew a very nice plane at one time called the North American -Rockwell Sabreliner (40). The leading edge devices would automatically extend or retract based on the aerodynamic forces on the wing. Fancy springs calibrated for a certain relative wind/airspeed. The pilot could only control them by changing speed (aoa I suppose really). Right on the cusp of the right speed they could sort of bounce from extended to retracted and back.
I think the idea of slowing things down by calling out speed, manipulation, result and all is excellent. Sadly the chumps in charge have seen fit to do otherwise. Their rationale is that it couldn't happen that way here. Yeah, right!
fly safe
jon
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Phil Hudson,
I've just read the link you posted from Airdisaster.com regarding Trident PI and am amazed. It is complete tosh. How have they derived what any of the crew said at any point in the accident, (aside from comms transcripts) or who specifically moved what when this aircraft WAS NOT FITTED WITH A CVR. The UK AAIB were unable to determine the exact sequence of events in 1973, but AirDisaster.com can do it today?? Sorry, but their 'special report' is a journalistic work of fiction.
For anybody interested the link below will take you to the full and final AAIB report into this accident. See in particular section 6, 'cockpit voice recorders'
UK AAIB Report into the loss of Trident PI
The recomendation of the AAIB, embodied in the ANO shortly thereafter mandated the carraige of this essential piece of kit.
Jondc9, you ask if I
In an ideal world yes, every little helps - but within our litigation hungry industry no - we are able to gather sufficient data from FDAP/ SESMA, DCVR, DFDR and comms transcripts.
I dread the day when the last actions of a crew are broadcast accross the web in HD clarity for sick individuals to get a cheap thrill. It's bad enough the FCC and FAA have ignored 'official' leaks of CVR recordings into the media....
I've just read the link you posted from Airdisaster.com regarding Trident PI and am amazed. It is complete tosh. How have they derived what any of the crew said at any point in the accident, (aside from comms transcripts) or who specifically moved what when this aircraft WAS NOT FITTED WITH A CVR. The UK AAIB were unable to determine the exact sequence of events in 1973, but AirDisaster.com can do it today?? Sorry, but their 'special report' is a journalistic work of fiction.
For anybody interested the link below will take you to the full and final AAIB report into this accident. See in particular section 6, 'cockpit voice recorders'
UK AAIB Report into the loss of Trident PI
The recomendation of the AAIB, embodied in the ANO shortly thereafter mandated the carraige of this essential piece of kit.
Jondc9, you ask if I
favor cockpit video recorders as an accident investigation tool
I dread the day when the last actions of a crew are broadcast accross the web in HD clarity for sick individuals to get a cheap thrill. It's bad enough the FCC and FAA have ignored 'official' leaks of CVR recordings into the media....
Last edited by banana head; 15th May 2006 at 22:05.
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Droops? Yes, Droops.
The later HS.121 Trident models did indeed have DROOPS.
These were not slats, nor were they leading edge devices, ala Boeing.
They were DROOPS.
And, yes there is a difference.
Now, as to the reference to the B707-400, yes it was indeed true, flaps up at 400agl.
This was also true for the B707-300 straight-pipe engine equipped aircraft as well.
Sterling performers these were...NOT.
How about...climbing at V2, at heavy weights, and achieving just 300-400 feet/min, with all 4 turning?
Never mind one inop.
The younger guys would be absolutely shocked.
These were not slats, nor were they leading edge devices, ala Boeing.
They were DROOPS.
And, yes there is a difference.
Now, as to the reference to the B707-400, yes it was indeed true, flaps up at 400agl.
This was also true for the B707-300 straight-pipe engine equipped aircraft as well.
Sterling performers these were...NOT.
How about...climbing at V2, at heavy weights, and achieving just 300-400 feet/min, with all 4 turning?
Never mind one inop.
The younger guys would be absolutely shocked.
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thanks cosmo, that canada dc8 thing was the one I was thinking of.
all the little gadgets that make flying work, spoilers, droops, water injection on engines all to make things work....when what really would help would be super long runways, less payload, more power, and higher pay for pilots ;-)
j
all the little gadgets that make flying work, spoilers, droops, water injection on engines all to make things work....when what really would help would be super long runways, less payload, more power, and higher pay for pilots ;-)
j