Dealing with difficult Captains
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Interesting to note someone made reference to speed below 10000ft. This is perfectly acceptable if given the go ahead from ATC. The procedure being flown at 280 kts, is however, totally unacceptable. What was this guy thinking, or maybe not as the case may be. Lacking in situational awareness for sure. Sympathise with the F/O but it does highlight how important your role is on the flightdeck. Here is another question, leading on from a response above, how many of F/O's would take control !!. Rgds.
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Point, If EVER there is a question of safety of flight. put the aircraft somewhere safe and take the time Think.! Say right up loud and clear. Captain I think this is UN safe!! Then offer a safe place to think/ Reveiw. comunicate. If the captain blows you off. don't let him/her kill you. If he/her doesn't like this. its time to talk/question the company. Or quite and find another job.
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Luckily it is only the minority of Capts that are difficult. Most take advice well personally I'm glad to have a FO to catch all the balls I drop, I've only made one buy the alcohol free beer all night.
You need to speak out as FO, it's your job. If we were all as perfect as some as the 'old school' BOAC Capts there would be no need for anyone in the RHS.
You need to speak out as FO, it's your job. If we were all as perfect as some as the 'old school' BOAC Capts there would be no need for anyone in the RHS.
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Interesting reading!!! (PPL 100 Hours thinking of going for the ATPL)
What was the name of the Captain flying the TRI-STAR which deep stalled with a young FO, it was very big at the time, this seems to be the same sernio as you are talking about.
What was the name of the Captain flying the TRI-STAR which deep stalled with a young FO, it was very big at the time, this seems to be the same sernio as you are talking about.
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Since my last post I have picked the brains of many senior Captains and found that most approved the method of intercept for the outbound course. However, a couple did not agree.
The experience has now taught me to ask more detailed questions about the approach, especially entry procedures!!!
The approach was into the Philippines where 250Kts below 10'000ft is NOT a requirement.
Now that I have thought about the events further. I believe the captain did know where he was and knew he was too high, thus a reason for keeping the speed so high. I also think he was relying on local knowledge/EFIS to keep the a/c away from terra firma!!! STILL, I DON'T APPROVE!!!
Sadly my airline has many 'YES, SIR' FOs and "Shut-up and watch" Capts. because that is the culture. And at this point in time I do not feel confident reporting to the company, as I am seen as very disposable to management.
Next question: would I take control from a captain? YES. A couple of days ago I reached for the controls when a captain didn't respond to a Mandatory "Go Around". He must have thought he would get away with it, thats was until he saw me move to take control. Go Around completed as norm, but a very quite flight deck on the return sector!!!
The experience has now taught me to ask more detailed questions about the approach, especially entry procedures!!!
The approach was into the Philippines where 250Kts below 10'000ft is NOT a requirement.
Now that I have thought about the events further. I believe the captain did know where he was and knew he was too high, thus a reason for keeping the speed so high. I also think he was relying on local knowledge/EFIS to keep the a/c away from terra firma!!! STILL, I DON'T APPROVE!!!
Sadly my airline has many 'YES, SIR' FOs and "Shut-up and watch" Capts. because that is the culture. And at this point in time I do not feel confident reporting to the company, as I am seen as very disposable to management.
Next question: would I take control from a captain? YES. A couple of days ago I reached for the controls when a captain didn't respond to a Mandatory "Go Around". He must have thought he would get away with it, thats was until he saw me move to take control. Go Around completed as norm, but a very quite flight deck on the return sector!!!
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It still astounds me that this kind of misunderstanding can still happen in a world of CRM / LOFT / multi crew training.....(to differing degrees at differeing companies all be it). I say misunderstanding because obviously what the flying pilot was thnking was not what the non flying pilot was.
Touch'n'oops, was there a thorough and detailed approach breifing prior to descent? If there was and the Capt still acted as you say then this is a sorry state of affairs. If there wasn't then there was an initial breakdown in basic multi crew ops, let alone CRM, etc.
I have had, as an FO and Capt, instances where the friendly crew member just said "You're happy with XXX approach?" to which I've agreed with. He / she thought that was all I needed and was almost offended when I requested a full briefing of the approach chart, levels, speeds, configuration.... You are entering the most critical phase of flight and cannot be taken lightly.
If either pilot then strays from the briefing given both crew members know it and recognise it. From there I find there is less "tension" when questioning something in the approach. The first piece of "swiss cheese" has already occured if the initial briefing did not occur properly.
On a similar note, it infuritaes me when another crew member knowingly breaks SOPs and puts me in the position to have to mention it, and then gets the sh$ts. On that note I've also learnt that the way something is said can get differing reactions due differing pilots and personalities.
All in all it's an uncomfortable position you were put in, but as others have stated, your ego or that of the Capt's is not worth comprimising the full safety of the pasengers you are carrying. I hope you get a good result from the unfortunate experince down the track.....
Touch'n'oops, was there a thorough and detailed approach breifing prior to descent? If there was and the Capt still acted as you say then this is a sorry state of affairs. If there wasn't then there was an initial breakdown in basic multi crew ops, let alone CRM, etc.
I have had, as an FO and Capt, instances where the friendly crew member just said "You're happy with XXX approach?" to which I've agreed with. He / she thought that was all I needed and was almost offended when I requested a full briefing of the approach chart, levels, speeds, configuration.... You are entering the most critical phase of flight and cannot be taken lightly.
If either pilot then strays from the briefing given both crew members know it and recognise it. From there I find there is less "tension" when questioning something in the approach. The first piece of "swiss cheese" has already occured if the initial briefing did not occur properly.
On a similar note, it infuritaes me when another crew member knowingly breaks SOPs and puts me in the position to have to mention it, and then gets the sh$ts. On that note I've also learnt that the way something is said can get differing reactions due differing pilots and personalities.
All in all it's an uncomfortable position you were put in, but as others have stated, your ego or that of the Capt's is not worth comprimising the full safety of the pasengers you are carrying. I hope you get a good result from the unfortunate experince down the track.....
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Okay, I am now aware that it is possible to join the outbound course after completing a parallel entry. I had a flick through Trevor Thom's Instrument flying book (Book 5) and one of his examples was near identical to that of my approach. He does use a parallel join over the beacon and proceeds outbound.
For those that have the book and are interested: P365. Fig.20-16.
I WAS WRONG!
The Captain did not breif the join. Being inexperienced I did not realise that this is vital and quite honestly didn't think about it! CRM is not strong at my company, even though Captains and FOs are being sent for CRM training, not much is changing.
In our SOPs it is stated that during the final approach Vert. speed becomes more than 1000ft/min call "Sink Rate". When a captain exceeded this, I called it in the simplest mono-toned voice. The reply, "I KNOW, be quite and watch!!!"
For those that have the book and are interested: P365. Fig.20-16.
I WAS WRONG!
The Captain did not breif the join. Being inexperienced I did not realise that this is vital and quite honestly didn't think about it! CRM is not strong at my company, even though Captains and FOs are being sent for CRM training, not much is changing.
In our SOPs it is stated that during the final approach Vert. speed becomes more than 1000ft/min call "Sink Rate". When a captain exceeded this, I called it in the simplest mono-toned voice. The reply, "I KNOW, be quite and watch!!!"
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Correct procedures are put in place for safe conduct of flight full stop...breaching them can increase the risk of a safe conducted flight and I believe if you feel out of place with what is happening express your concern to the Captain and let him know you are concerned with the way he or she has proceeded with the approach (in your case the speed below 10000ft and the correct approach pattern) etc...
I believe there is no harm in speaking up. Advise the Captain of the correct speed in your case 210kts for the procedure and not 280kt.. Get you point through until you are satisfied with the result between Captain and F/O …but then again I can imagine the situation you are in and along with the many RHS pilots who go through it…
I believe there is no harm in speaking up. Advise the Captain of the correct speed in your case 210kts for the procedure and not 280kt.. Get you point through until you are satisfied with the result between Captain and F/O …but then again I can imagine the situation you are in and along with the many RHS pilots who go through it…
Airway-
You also hit the nail on the head.
No matter how large or small the Captain's ego,he/she can always be the person who is right, if they need to exploit their rank.
The types with ego problems and/or the unwillingness to consider concerns voiced by other crewmembers, even if they have the best situational awareness/self-descipline in the world, created the need for a CRM program. This was begun partly because of a DC-8 which was getting very low on fuel over Portland, Oregon. The L-1011 crash in the Everglades might have inspired the need, along with the (Western) DC-10 in Mexico City, the Jetstream accident at Hibbing, Minnesota, and the worst disaster, at Tenerife.
Egos or over-riding anxieties over duty period regulations etc led to thousands of deaths.
You also hit the nail on the head.
No matter how large or small the Captain's ego,he/she can always be the person who is right, if they need to exploit their rank.
The types with ego problems and/or the unwillingness to consider concerns voiced by other crewmembers, even if they have the best situational awareness/self-descipline in the world, created the need for a CRM program. This was begun partly because of a DC-8 which was getting very low on fuel over Portland, Oregon. The L-1011 crash in the Everglades might have inspired the need, along with the (Western) DC-10 in Mexico City, the Jetstream accident at Hibbing, Minnesota, and the worst disaster, at Tenerife.
Egos or over-riding anxieties over duty period regulations etc led to thousands of deaths.
Life's too short for ironing
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Touch'n'oops
Nice to see you are big enough to admit you are wrong. The topic has made interesting reading from a CRM perspective.
Not sure about the couple of posters who so keen to change it to a "difficult FO' situation. I hope they read your confession to being in the wrong.
Once on the ground, did you try asking the other pilot why they had done those two things - high speed approaching the hold and the hold entry? They must have seen that it left you confused. Perhaps you can phrase it in such a way that it looks like you are wanting to learn from them, not challenge their authority?
F
Nice to see you are big enough to admit you are wrong. The topic has made interesting reading from a CRM perspective.
Not sure about the couple of posters who so keen to change it to a "difficult FO' situation. I hope they read your confession to being in the wrong.
Once on the ground, did you try asking the other pilot why they had done those two things - high speed approaching the hold and the hold entry? They must have seen that it left you confused. Perhaps you can phrase it in such a way that it looks like you are wanting to learn from them, not challenge their authority?
F
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Very true Ignition...
No FO should be intimidated, FO's should never hesitate to challenge, enquire or express concern.
Strong words like "I'm not happy", "I'm concerned" or even "I'm uncomfortable" should alert the captain to evaluate or re-think the moment/situation.
I know it is easier said than done especially with junior FO's when questioning actions or decisions by the captain, no human being is the same or perfect, we all have different reactions or attitudes to everything in life, but we can learn and adapt to ensure cockpit efficiency, safety and awareness.
No FO should be intimidated, FO's should never hesitate to challenge, enquire or express concern.
Strong words like "I'm not happy", "I'm concerned" or even "I'm uncomfortable" should alert the captain to evaluate or re-think the moment/situation.
I know it is easier said than done especially with junior FO's when questioning actions or decisions by the captain, no human being is the same or perfect, we all have different reactions or attitudes to everything in life, but we can learn and adapt to ensure cockpit efficiency, safety and awareness.
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DQ4 is absolutely correct. The problem is not many pilots are aware of a racetrack entry and when one is performed it takes F/O's by surprise.
You could argue that the entry should be briefed but shouldn't "standard racetrack entry" be sufficient??
As for the speed. If I caught any Pilot flying in excess of the published speed on a published procedure he wouldn't be doing it again. He would be taken off line. It is dangerous and neglegent. Standard speeds are essential for terrain clearence and it is unsatisfactory for a pilot to fly any faster than that published just because he thinks it's ok. Its the same guy that throws away the plate and we read about him in chirp in the CFIT section.
If any of you fly in a non standard manner, ask yourself if you should be flying at all. I wouldn't want my children in the cabin with aircraft flying procedures at 280 knots. No way.
You could argue that the entry should be briefed but shouldn't "standard racetrack entry" be sufficient??
As for the speed. If I caught any Pilot flying in excess of the published speed on a published procedure he wouldn't be doing it again. He would be taken off line. It is dangerous and neglegent. Standard speeds are essential for terrain clearence and it is unsatisfactory for a pilot to fly any faster than that published just because he thinks it's ok. Its the same guy that throws away the plate and we read about him in chirp in the CFIT section.
If any of you fly in a non standard manner, ask yourself if you should be flying at all. I wouldn't want my children in the cabin with aircraft flying procedures at 280 knots. No way.
