What does a Captain expect from a FO?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Suffolk, G.B.
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flash, I'll fly with you anytime if you can keep me entertained all day with ironic wit like that.
Having previously flown with a uk airline that has been taken over by its Cloggie parent, I am now spending my time flying with procedure bound, anally retentive robots (it's not their fault, they're trained to be like that......), I would relish the chance for some verbal fencing that doesn't end up flying so high over my colleagues head that he thinks its Concorde!
Good show old chap, keep it up!
Having previously flown with a uk airline that has been taken over by its Cloggie parent, I am now spending my time flying with procedure bound, anally retentive robots (it's not their fault, they're trained to be like that......), I would relish the chance for some verbal fencing that doesn't end up flying so high over my colleagues head that he thinks its Concorde!
Good show old chap, keep it up!
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Sky
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great stuff Bealzebub 
thank you for sharing i have enjoyed reading it.
Now, why did i spent £20 on saturday buying a CRM book when i can have it for free here @ PPRuNe
thank you for sharing i have enjoyed reading it.Now, why did i spent £20 on saturday buying a CRM book when i can have it for free here @ PPRuNe
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The World
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all!
I’ve taken pleasure from read above, and I want to add from myself - you’ll never arise problems if you simply love people, don't hesitate to thank your PNF once again, having heard “…completed” and never stop learning to laugh at yourself!
Clear Sky and Safety Landings!
I’ve taken pleasure from read above, and I want to add from myself - you’ll never arise problems if you simply love people, don't hesitate to thank your PNF once again, having heard “…completed” and never stop learning to laugh at yourself!
Clear Sky and Safety Landings!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crazycanuk
If you are in the LHS I would suspect it is for a minor carrier and you display the attitude I have come to expect on here.
Flaps to 60
How old are you? Are you out of short trousers yet? Your posting, apart from not making sense due to repeating itself, is written in the tone of a little boy lost in a big boys world. Grow up my boy and stand up for yourself. A spell in the RAF would have done you good.
LF
If you are in the LHS I would suspect it is for a minor carrier and you display the attitude I have come to expect on here.
Flaps to 60
How old are you? Are you out of short trousers yet? Your posting, apart from not making sense due to repeating itself, is written in the tone of a little boy lost in a big boys world. Grow up my boy and stand up for yourself. A spell in the RAF would have done you good.
LF
Last edited by Lord_Flashhart; 3rd Aug 2004 at 17:53.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London
Age: 59
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you really must know flash im 40 years old and have a wide variety of experience im many roles in and out of aviation.
I have come across many people with the sort of character or lack of it in many jobs and the one common thread among you is that you believe in your own greatness more than anyone else.
If you ever make it to the LHS then you will be an unpopular captain and they're more deadly than a bad one.
Normally when someone disagrees with my comments i agree to disagree and wish them good luck and part amicably.... to you i say goodbye.
PS have you been passed over for command a few times as this is what im getting from your post?
I have come across many people with the sort of character or lack of it in many jobs and the one common thread among you is that you believe in your own greatness more than anyone else.
If you ever make it to the LHS then you will be an unpopular captain and they're more deadly than a bad one.
Normally when someone disagrees with my comments i agree to disagree and wish them good luck and part amicably.... to you i say goodbye.
PS have you been passed over for command a few times as this is what im getting from your post?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Qld
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beazlebub
Beazlebub,
As a retired International Capt. & Training Capt. ( F/O 's to Capt.)
And having started in a DH 82 in 1957 and finishing on Bill's, beautiful - 400, ( If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going ) I most sincerely, on a scale of 10, have to give you , 12.
You have, to my mind, just put into words, for the first time on PPrune & in my entire flying career, CRM's etc, the words of an obviously, dedicated pilot, trainer, line guy, sim guy, ( Bat Cave )professional aviator.
As a retired training guy, I have had a few Richard Craniums, to train, the worst being a guy, who, after take off, was more interested in chatting up the F/A, instead of tuning the Wx. Radar and, as there was a towering active CB about 30 N.M s , ahead, he couldn't understand why I told the F/A , not to come back to the flight deck, until, I called for her presence. My only scrub.
When I went through as an F/O, I was trained to back the Command Pilot to the absolute limit, of my limited experience, which grew less limited by the day..
I was fortunate to have Training & Line Captains who where great guys to fly with and once they saw, I was as keen as mustard, they confided to me their vast knowledge.
To them, I give my thanks for a great, safe career.
I only hope that one day, the Guys and Dolls, that I trained , will sit back in their retirement chair, on line with PPrune, thinking, yes, I had a Training Capt. I liked.
To you Beazel, keep up your good work, all aspirants, please take note of Beazel's post
Flown a few types, and not trying to boast, the CAF ones, were sheer luck of the draw, sheer luck.
DH 82, DHC-1, Auster, most Cessna, Piper, Beech, PA-30, DC-3,
F-27, DC-9, L-188 , aaarr, the Electra, Gods gift to Pilots, DC-10,
737, 727, Bill's big 400, and at the Confederate Airforce, Texas.
T-6, T-28, PBY, B-25, B-24, B-29 and with tears in my eyes, the P-51.
To all of you out there, take note of Beazel, one day, I , might be your trusting SLF. So, please keep the Dom, cool in "F "
Always, sit on your hands, have slow a look around , then, make YOUR decision as to what action, YOU will take, backed up by your F/O.
Good Captains, train Good Future Captains.
Cheers
ROBROY
PS. To Flash, I would have no hesitation, in scrubbing you!!!!
As a retired International Capt. & Training Capt. ( F/O 's to Capt.)
And having started in a DH 82 in 1957 and finishing on Bill's, beautiful - 400, ( If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going ) I most sincerely, on a scale of 10, have to give you , 12.
You have, to my mind, just put into words, for the first time on PPrune & in my entire flying career, CRM's etc, the words of an obviously, dedicated pilot, trainer, line guy, sim guy, ( Bat Cave )professional aviator.
As a retired training guy, I have had a few Richard Craniums, to train, the worst being a guy, who, after take off, was more interested in chatting up the F/A, instead of tuning the Wx. Radar and, as there was a towering active CB about 30 N.M s , ahead, he couldn't understand why I told the F/A , not to come back to the flight deck, until, I called for her presence. My only scrub.
When I went through as an F/O, I was trained to back the Command Pilot to the absolute limit, of my limited experience, which grew less limited by the day..
I was fortunate to have Training & Line Captains who where great guys to fly with and once they saw, I was as keen as mustard, they confided to me their vast knowledge.
To them, I give my thanks for a great, safe career.
I only hope that one day, the Guys and Dolls, that I trained , will sit back in their retirement chair, on line with PPrune, thinking, yes, I had a Training Capt. I liked.
To you Beazel, keep up your good work, all aspirants, please take note of Beazel's post
Flown a few types, and not trying to boast, the CAF ones, were sheer luck of the draw, sheer luck.
DH 82, DHC-1, Auster, most Cessna, Piper, Beech, PA-30, DC-3,
F-27, DC-9, L-188 , aaarr, the Electra, Gods gift to Pilots, DC-10,
737, 727, Bill's big 400, and at the Confederate Airforce, Texas.
T-6, T-28, PBY, B-25, B-24, B-29 and with tears in my eyes, the P-51.
To all of you out there, take note of Beazel, one day, I , might be your trusting SLF. So, please keep the Dom, cool in "F "
Always, sit on your hands, have slow a look around , then, make YOUR decision as to what action, YOU will take, backed up by your F/O.
Good Captains, train Good Future Captains.
Cheers
ROBROY
PS. To Flash, I would have no hesitation, in scrubbing you!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Qld
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flash.
Flash.
The only pilots that I ever had trouble with, as to training them, into airline procedures,were ex military. The, go get um, mission must be accomplished thinking, one missed out, the rest are now Captains, but were not Knuckle Heads.
ROBROY
The only pilots that I ever had trouble with, as to training them, into airline procedures,were ex military. The, go get um, mission must be accomplished thinking, one missed out, the rest are now Captains, but were not Knuckle Heads.
ROBROY
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beazlebub,
Read your post about "what does a captain expect from an FO" a few weeks back, and find myself coming back to read it again and again.
Which is rather silly since I am not a pilot and therefor will never be an FO.
So my fascination with your post got me thinking about why I keep returning to it. Answer: I am trying to glean from your post some nuggets that would apply to my own job situation.
But it doesn't really translate very well.
If you would ever find yourself with time on your hands, how about sharing with us (I'd copy you to the CC forum in a flash!) another piece about what does a captain expect from a CSD/No1/Purser?.
If you would apply your obviously very valid insightsto that bit of CRM, I for one would be truly grateful.
Read your post about "what does a captain expect from an FO" a few weeks back, and find myself coming back to read it again and again.
Which is rather silly since I am not a pilot and therefor will never be an FO.
So my fascination with your post got me thinking about why I keep returning to it. Answer: I am trying to glean from your post some nuggets that would apply to my own job situation.
But it doesn't really translate very well.
If you would ever find yourself with time on your hands, how about sharing with us (I'd copy you to the CC forum in a flash!) another piece about what does a captain expect from a CSD/No1/Purser?.
If you would apply your obviously very valid insightsto that bit of CRM, I for one would be truly grateful.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, thank you for the kind comments.
Flapsforty raises an interesting question which I have given some thought to and will try to answer it honestly though as before it is only my own opinion from my own experience.
What does a Captain expect from a No 1 / CSD / Purser ?
With a First Officer, the Captain is operating with another professional pilot. Clearly they are both working in a field of expertise that is common to both of them. With the No1 ( used to include pursers and CSD's etc) there are more differences in the operational aspects of the two jobs. That said many of the CRM attributes and qualities apply equally. Some of them perhaps have a lesser practical application and others perhaps more.
If the Captains primary role is viewed as managing a flight and its crew, the No1's primary role is effictively as a department manager within that structure. In this case the department is the passenger cabin and the crew and passengers within. As such I believe it is the No 1's goal to effectively control that department to a standard and efficiency that presents the Captain with a complete package that in the ordinary course of events requires little if any direct intervention from that captain.
In my own experience the best No 1's are those that can rectify most problems without necessarily needing to seek further instruction or guidance. That is not to say that in a situation out of the norm they should not seek such guidance, but rather it ought not to be necessary to simply report every minor occurence or seek reinforcement of what is clearly a common sense issue. Equally communication is a vital point. This is the case not only as it applies to safety issues, but also in matters of regularity.
For example I have experienced No 1's (rarely)who seem to turn every minor cabin problem into a serious issue when there is no apparant need. A group of infants who have been sat in seats that are not served by supplemental oxygen masks is clearly a nuisance but is obviously easily remedied. Most No 1's will set about resolving the issue and if necessary letting the captain know if there might be a delay caused by this. Every now and again there will be one who comes and reports this to the Captain complaining about the check in staff and how this always happens etc etc. Far better to deal with it and discuss it later when time constraints are less of an issue.
I always appreciate being offered a solution with a problem. For example if a passenger has presented as being unsuitable or doubtful for travel, let me know what you want. It may be that another course of action is deemed more appropriate but any decision is much easier if the clear views and suggestions of the No 1 are offered at the time of the report.
The no 1 should also be a good facilitator between the Captain / First officer and the rest of the crew. If a junior crew member has a concern or problem they may well be reluctant to pass it on for a whole host of reasons. The no 1 should be able to act as a bridge for any such matters although of course any of the crew ought to be encouraged to contact the Captain or F/O on matter they feel is warranted.
It is a difficult thing to define, but Maturity is an important quality in a Captains expectations of a No 1. In a job where there are a great many young people most of whom are indeed very mature in their attitude to their charge, I still find that most of the best No 1's are those that have had many years of experience in doing what they do. Of course that is not to say that there aren't many good No 1's who have been more recently promoted, but experience still counts for a lot.
As with the F/O's, attitude, sense of humour, common sense, helpfulness, ability to clearly communicate, ability to listen as well as a general sense of leadership are all important qualities that are seldom lacking in the best No1's.
I also think it is important for Captains to establish a rapport with the No1's in order that they both have a better understanding of each other. These days more so than in the past, the flight deck door is an obvious obstacle to efficient communication between the two departments. As such it is perhaps more important to use time on the ground or where possible downroute to establish a good communication and working relationship between the crew generally but the No 1 in particular and the flight deck crew.
I always try and make time to sit down with the senior crew ( F/O and Number 1 and 2) down-route for an hour or two and buy them a drink in order to take the time to discuss serious or mundane issues, but also to establish a better understanding between us.
In summary this is a subject that go on and on for more pages than the moderator would probably allow, but is best summed up by saying in my opinion a Captain expects a No 1 to be a good judge of character, a good communicator and a mediator. In one word a good manager.
Flapsforty raises an interesting question which I have given some thought to and will try to answer it honestly though as before it is only my own opinion from my own experience.
What does a Captain expect from a No 1 / CSD / Purser ?
With a First Officer, the Captain is operating with another professional pilot. Clearly they are both working in a field of expertise that is common to both of them. With the No1 ( used to include pursers and CSD's etc) there are more differences in the operational aspects of the two jobs. That said many of the CRM attributes and qualities apply equally. Some of them perhaps have a lesser practical application and others perhaps more.
If the Captains primary role is viewed as managing a flight and its crew, the No1's primary role is effictively as a department manager within that structure. In this case the department is the passenger cabin and the crew and passengers within. As such I believe it is the No 1's goal to effectively control that department to a standard and efficiency that presents the Captain with a complete package that in the ordinary course of events requires little if any direct intervention from that captain.
In my own experience the best No 1's are those that can rectify most problems without necessarily needing to seek further instruction or guidance. That is not to say that in a situation out of the norm they should not seek such guidance, but rather it ought not to be necessary to simply report every minor occurence or seek reinforcement of what is clearly a common sense issue. Equally communication is a vital point. This is the case not only as it applies to safety issues, but also in matters of regularity.
For example I have experienced No 1's (rarely)who seem to turn every minor cabin problem into a serious issue when there is no apparant need. A group of infants who have been sat in seats that are not served by supplemental oxygen masks is clearly a nuisance but is obviously easily remedied. Most No 1's will set about resolving the issue and if necessary letting the captain know if there might be a delay caused by this. Every now and again there will be one who comes and reports this to the Captain complaining about the check in staff and how this always happens etc etc. Far better to deal with it and discuss it later when time constraints are less of an issue.
I always appreciate being offered a solution with a problem. For example if a passenger has presented as being unsuitable or doubtful for travel, let me know what you want. It may be that another course of action is deemed more appropriate but any decision is much easier if the clear views and suggestions of the No 1 are offered at the time of the report.
The no 1 should also be a good facilitator between the Captain / First officer and the rest of the crew. If a junior crew member has a concern or problem they may well be reluctant to pass it on for a whole host of reasons. The no 1 should be able to act as a bridge for any such matters although of course any of the crew ought to be encouraged to contact the Captain or F/O on matter they feel is warranted.
It is a difficult thing to define, but Maturity is an important quality in a Captains expectations of a No 1. In a job where there are a great many young people most of whom are indeed very mature in their attitude to their charge, I still find that most of the best No 1's are those that have had many years of experience in doing what they do. Of course that is not to say that there aren't many good No 1's who have been more recently promoted, but experience still counts for a lot.
As with the F/O's, attitude, sense of humour, common sense, helpfulness, ability to clearly communicate, ability to listen as well as a general sense of leadership are all important qualities that are seldom lacking in the best No1's.
I also think it is important for Captains to establish a rapport with the No1's in order that they both have a better understanding of each other. These days more so than in the past, the flight deck door is an obvious obstacle to efficient communication between the two departments. As such it is perhaps more important to use time on the ground or where possible downroute to establish a good communication and working relationship between the crew generally but the No 1 in particular and the flight deck crew.
I always try and make time to sit down with the senior crew ( F/O and Number 1 and 2) down-route for an hour or two and buy them a drink in order to take the time to discuss serious or mundane issues, but also to establish a better understanding between us.
In summary this is a subject that go on and on for more pages than the moderator would probably allow, but is best summed up by saying in my opinion a Captain expects a No 1 to be a good judge of character, a good communicator and a mediator. In one word a good manager.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: East of Gibraltar
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bealzebub,
Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to put into words what many CRM courses fail to get across. Although I am not a civil pilot, I feel that your words of advice can be carried across to many different areas.
I have been a military, fast-jet pilot for going on 26 years and I am now in the training world (a job that I love). I try to instil in my students many of the attitudes that you have spoken of. Change 'Captain' to 'Formation Leader' and 'FO' to'Wingman' and the principles are the same. Equally 'Squadron Commander' and 'Flight Commanders' or 'Flight Commanders' and 'Junior Officers'.
What you have given us, in the fewest words possible (IMHO) is a pattern for LEADERSHIP - where both the superior and the subordinate respect each other and do their best to get the job done. The best boss I ever had was hard but fair - the worst thing about making mistakes or scr**ing up was the feeling that you had let him down. No harsh words were needed. The worst boss was one who bo**ocked you BEFORE you had made a mess of things. No respect in either direction.
I used to be an instructor on a multi-national leadership course and I used to tell the participants that the best leader is one who makes his boys WANT to do well for him. Not through fear but safe in the knowledge that even if your solution is not the best one, it is the best one you could come up with and that was good enough for him.
Once again, thanks for your contribution. I am considering printing it off and making my students read it to enhance their learning experience.
(By the way, we military pilots are not all like LF!! In fact, he would not do very well on my squadron either!)
Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to put into words what many CRM courses fail to get across. Although I am not a civil pilot, I feel that your words of advice can be carried across to many different areas.
I have been a military, fast-jet pilot for going on 26 years and I am now in the training world (a job that I love). I try to instil in my students many of the attitudes that you have spoken of. Change 'Captain' to 'Formation Leader' and 'FO' to'Wingman' and the principles are the same. Equally 'Squadron Commander' and 'Flight Commanders' or 'Flight Commanders' and 'Junior Officers'.
What you have given us, in the fewest words possible (IMHO) is a pattern for LEADERSHIP - where both the superior and the subordinate respect each other and do their best to get the job done. The best boss I ever had was hard but fair - the worst thing about making mistakes or scr**ing up was the feeling that you had let him down. No harsh words were needed. The worst boss was one who bo**ocked you BEFORE you had made a mess of things. No respect in either direction.
I used to be an instructor on a multi-national leadership course and I used to tell the participants that the best leader is one who makes his boys WANT to do well for him. Not through fear but safe in the knowledge that even if your solution is not the best one, it is the best one you could come up with and that was good enough for him.
Once again, thanks for your contribution. I am considering printing it off and making my students read it to enhance their learning experience.
(By the way, we military pilots are not all like LF!! In fact, he would not do very well on my squadron either!)
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bealzebub
And to think that I missed this because it had dropped off the page before I had returned from a trip.
Thank you Bealzebub, this will be printed for work use and posted on the CC forum for others to enjoy.
Thank you Bealzebub, this will be printed for work use and posted on the CC forum for others to enjoy.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good sense and common courtesy is all you need to keep in mind for all your dealings as an aviation proffessional. That, and an appreciation of the fact that we are all human and will make mistakes, we just need to trap them before they become consequential to safety. How do we do this? See above.
