Too late. They already have:

??????, ???????? ????????????? ??????? ? ? ??? ???????????? ??????????????? / news2.ru (original)

https://translate.google.com/transla...-text=&act=url (Google translation)

Disturbing the Scene
 

CAT1
Your comments regarding the bodies being left in situ are unwarranted. The deceased crew of the US helicopter that crashed in Norfolk, UK were also left in situ for three days, although covered, while the site was rendered safe and investigations and coroners requests were carried out.

The MH17 crash site should be treated as a crime scene until whatever happened has been established. This scene is in the middle of a war zone with limited resources available to conduct any form of investigation, let alone preserve every minute detail at the scene. So leaving stuff in situ as long as possible is probably the best that can be hoped for in the circumstances.

All things considered, access to the wreckage site has been remarkably open to reporters and investigators. It is unreasonable to expect Western European or US standards of scene preservation and analysis, but since it is pretty obvious what happened (in a gross sense) the minutea really doesn't matter that much.

The investigators and local population are doing their best in what are very unpleasant, unstable and difficult circumstances and are to all be commended for their actions.

Pace, IMHO that is avoiding broading the topic to geopolitics, ethnity, etc. Once we know what has actually happened, we might debate contributing factors, but not the other way around.

I'm not rying to moderate this board, but I recon that we are touching areas sensitive to many ppruners, and those areas are not really the primary cause of this tragedy.

If you're referring to the long strips during the initial crash, cellophane wrap is so difficult to unroll. It would be very unlikely that it unraveled itself during the fall.

Apologies if you're referring to another issue.

Italian newpaper (Corriere Della Sera) is running a story where Russian separatists supposedly admit to them shooting down MH17 thinking that it was a military plane.

«Così è stato colpito l’aereo» - Corriere.it

I find it curious some people are so bent out of shape of the handling by the seperatists of the wreckage/bodies, terrible as it is and certainly should not be excused or go uncriticised, but get real, this is a very poor, pretty unloved part of the world, not exactly known for it's universities and Nobel lauriets..... If this had happened in some African countries, it would make this emergency response look very professional.

Some people seem to be giving credit to the separatists for 'handing over' the flight recorders.

Have they considered that they were vital evidence in a criminal investigation, removed from a crime scene.

TV reporters have plenty of photograhs of heavy equipment moving sections of the airframe before crash investigators have arrived. Early shots show collections of passports - what else of the passengers poossessions have been collected of looted.

The behaviour is all consistent with unacceptable interference by the local 'militias' whoever is directing them.

The problem with the black boxes is that firstly they are not going to contain anything which will add to the facts we already know which is that the aircraft was shot down by a missile.

Secondly the black boxes themselves are now suspect.
Where have they been since removed? As one aviation Authority stated it is not out of the realms of reality to remove data which was unwanted and return the black boxes as in original state.

So in reality an empty public relations exercise in this situation

I also find it amazing how the emphasis is now changing in these threads to what a great bunch these people are who shot down a civilian aircraft.

I strongly suspect it was an accidental target which has turned around in a very negative way against the rebels if in fact it was the rebels who shot it down and not a direct import from Russia with 6 Russian trained troops operating it and now hastily removed.
i have visited that region. yes the majority are poor and most are decent people who will have been horrified by the accidental loss of innocent lives so I would be surprised if the majority of even rebel troops are not gutted by this mistake

The handing over of the black boxes is not a big deal. Autopsies are likely to be more informative.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe they were moving large pieces of wreckage to get to the decomposing body/parts of a person. What would you prefer, leave them under it rotting or move a piece of wreckage that has fallen 33,000ft to its random resting place. Did they lift it and take it away? You don't know and neither do I as it was only reported that they were moving wreckage and disturbing the evidence. I expect they lifted it, removed the body and then put it back.

I honestly think it is quite disgraceful how this is sometimes being reported and it is obviously having the desired effect on the people who just soak it up without ever contemplating why.

"As one aviation Authority stated it is not out of the realms of reality to remove data which was unwanted and return the black boxes as in original state."

You must be kidding! Everyone has been apalled at the poor and unprofessional handling of the site, then some "expert" thinks these cats might decide to put down their vodka bottles and carry out a highly technical removal of data from an FDR returning it to it's original state....now that is "armchair expertise"!

thank you, been waiting to see a photo of it, certainly doesn't look like a new form of chaff (as suggest a few pages back).

Often in the galley area you see rolls of blue or white kimwipe paper could it be that. It fell vertically (not fluttering around) suggesting the inner roll support was glued to the paper. It was all close together in the fall suggesting a common location in the aircraft (main galley?)

CAT1 ... In the spirit of more data:
 

From WAPO

"In the agonizing quest to pin down exactly what happened when Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 went down over Ukraine last week, Web archivists and other digital sleuths are playing an unusual potentially pivotal role"

How Web archivists and other digital sleuths are unraveling the mystery of MH17 - The Washington Post

Re moving the bodies, provided the markers sticks have a ref number which is repeated on the body bag, it will be possible to see which part of the aircraft they were seated in.

Any tampering with bodies, like removing shrapnel will be evident at autopsy.

Re who did it, I think if the rebels knew it was the Ukraine forces they would have had a secure cordon in place immediately, nothing would have been touch and the experts would have been allowed and escorted for safety ASAP. They are not stupid and would not have wasted such an good propaganda opportunity.

Yes we saw collections of passports and bank cards etc but how do we know at this stage they won't be handed over to the investigation team, after all they have been witnessed with them and didn't confiscate the film.

Personally I believe it was a rebel c*ck up, but now their initial panic is over are they likely to make their position worse by holding on to these items, after all the pax list is known so it is easy to get the passports and cards cancelled.

Posted by Pace
Posted by PerAsperaAdAstra
Hardly think that was the suggestion. If one thinks about it just a little bit one might consider that the expertise to conduct a highly technical removal of data from an FDR could be resident in Moscow (or elsewhere in Russia) No?

Image Gallery of Crash Site
 

From the NY Times online this AM:
article link:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/wo...hows.html?_r=0

photo
http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/...-master675.jpg

CVR/FDR
 

Quick question for the experts (of which I am not).

Anyone know if it is possible to ascertain whether a CVR/FDR has already been opened/analysed? I know these units are sealed to protect them from excessive trauma/heat/water ingress so would the seal effectively be broken if data had already been accessed?

Isn't it far more likely that expert advice from Russia was either:

a) how to wipe the data entirely (then can blame MH pilot for turning stuff off, with handy recent example of MH370).

or (even more likely)

b) that the data will tell no one anything about _who_ fired whatever took the plane down, so just hand the things over and make yourselves look good for once.

I think we're confusing food grade cellophane wrap and freight/cargo wrap. That's what it looks like to me. Seems too big to be anything from the galley...

Did anyone stop to think perhaps the passports were collected by locals with no knowledge other than that some of the wreck was burning and they wanted to preserve them for the authorities to help with confirming identities?

Not everything must have an evil motive, it could be plain ignorance of crime scene protocol. As mentioned, many of the volunteers were miners and farmers from local towns.

As for tampering with the recorders- there is a photo of a guy carrying it. You really think they're going to try do something to them with the media knowing, recording and having them down as the first people to touch it?

Was surprised to read such an article written by a US person:

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine? | Consortiumnews

Looks like this guy was investigating the Iran-Contra case, wasn't he? Or just a peanut gallery?

Perverted truth: How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-pl...oto-perverted/

Very apt words for a link to an RT story......

Is there any chance that a Ukrainian military transport would be heading East into Russia, as MH17 was? Is the Ukrainian government on good enough terms with Moscow for that to be possible?

I don´t know whether we have somebody with more detailed knowledge at hand... but that piece of fuselage shell must be from the crown area of the cockpit. It is painted white, so according to the MH colour scheme it must be from the upper half of the fuselage (the lower is grey). There are no continuous stringers, so it must be from a quite far forward location. That would imply, the rocket actually exploded above and ahead of the aircraft, while all graphics shown so far seem to show an explosion in line of the approach from below (probably making use of the momentum the warhead already has approaching at supersonic speed).

Did you even bother to read what it said. Anyone with half a brain could draw the same conclusion from the video.

About MH 370
 

22nd Jul 2014, 01:18 CAT1 said

Russian news media has already done that !:mad:

Smart move
 

The locals (civilian and otherwise) made all the right moves here (the initial shot aside, if it was them). They quietly found and picked up the bodies, collected most possessions, found the black boxes...

AND GAVE THEM TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE -- the recorders to the airline which owned them, the bodies to the country which lost the most. Not to middlemen (Russia, Kiev, whatever supposedly neutral international investigators were coming). What does USA have to do with this? did they even have a single soul on board?

They also videoed most of what they're doing, so if people would just stop editing them , they'd tell the truth of what went on. They did the work while everyone else is still just screaming invective at each other.

The Mayalsians, if they have any sense, will ask for blackbox help from Australia, who they already have arrangements with because of MH370, and not let the US get their hands on them either.

@ZeBedie

The strategy of Kiev gov was to surround the rebel cities and cut them of from supposed logistical support from Russia. The only way they could supply their troops was by air. See map: blue and yellow (flag of Ukraine) is the area controlled by Kiev gov. Clearly they were fighting the situtation where their yellow area of advancement on the Russian border was facing the danger of being surrounded.

http://euromaidanpress.com/wp-conten...014/07/ATO.jpg

Similarly, the Kiev troops had a reason to activate their SAMs because they made a claim that it is Russian jets that are shooting down their transports, and not rebel SAMs.

Russian jets shoot down Ukrainian warplane over Ukraine: Kiev military

Clearly, both sides had reasons to use SAMs in that mess.

KatSLF, anyone with doubts on that score should look up the video posted by Vice News. It shows citizens speaking about what they should do the day after the crash.

One is a miner just coming from the mine who says they should do 'anything to help' and they know that these are innocents (warning the video has uncensored images of deceased) They have done their best to cover them and are waiting to see what should be done. One even asks 'how can you take all this (the people)?'

The biggest progress shown on that map is, that russia meanwhile has adopted the english language for their countries name :ouch:

For those that can find out
 

There have been many attacks on EUROCONTROL and ICAO and the ANSPs for not closing the airspace in East Ukraine. Many airlines carried on flying through the airspace from Ukraine into Russia. One airline that would be expected to be routinely on routes into Russia would be Aeroflot (and of course other Russian carriers).

I don't suppose anyone here could have a look and see if Aeroflot started avoiding the area just after the Buk missile carriers arrived?

"Is there any chance that a Ukrainian military transport would be heading East into Russia, as MH17 was? Is the Ukrainian government on good enough terms with Moscow for that to be possible?"

no, but there is a chance it would be heading to a group of encircled ukrainian soldiers where they would drop them supplies, actually that did happen several times before the crash

I know that supplies are not dropped from FL330 but it's questionable if rebels knew it or even had means to precisely measure the altitude because they didn't possess an auxiliary target acquisition radar vehicle, just an embedded radar on their launch-vehicle which is rudimentary at best.

they have seen the blip and were trigger-happy to fire before checking on something they were convinced was an ukrainian Antonov transport plane because it came the same route

"I don't suppose anyone here could have a look and see if Aeroflot started avoiding the area just after the Buk missile carriers arrived?"

IIRC they have overflown the Ukraine many times that day however not exactly the same area and not in direction coming up from Kiev so practically no chance of misidentifying with ukrainian military aircrafts... you could expect their pilots to know the situation better than others (it was all over their news that rebels have got the BUK system) and go around the area on their own.

Everyone can do it. Aeroflot flew around Ukraine long before the disaster and so did many others paying attention to situation on the ground.

SU1827 - Aeroflot - Flight history - Flightradar24

Black Boxes
 

Infrequentflyer 789: Well yes, after all the Russian narrative is Ukraine regular forces fired the missile. The main point though here is that once evidence chain of custody becomes suspect, the evidence becomes suspect.

The skin on that crown section has been pressed in forcing the frame to ridge along the rivet lines. Given how thin the atmosphere is at altitude one wonders if it was very, very close to the warhead.

"Everyone can do it. Aeroflot flew around Ukraine long before the disaster and so did many others paying attention to situation on the ground."

that's the flight from Crimea which they now count as domestic flight, other flights from Europe have regularly crossed Ukraine

@AreOut

Flying over and to Kiev, yes, but not over Eastern Ukraine from what I was able to determine. But - everyone can try to find it out. There aren't any direct flights from Volgograd to Europe and that would be the most obvious test.

they were (and still are) flying to Dnepropetrovsk that is some 50 miles from a warzone which is a bit crazy because they are now practically at war