M.Mouse

Quote:

1. Your command decision to leave John as PF while you took command of the situation was outstanding, and clearly led to the next decision which saved a worse outcome.

Sorry to interrupt your eulogising but that is the way BA train the handling of the majority of non-normal situations....


... and I understand that BA was one of the very early adopters of this philosophy.

My point is that Capt. Burkill exemplified this philosophy and put it to good use under extreme stress.

If we haven't been in the position he was, how do we know whether a eulogy is deserved or not?

I prefer to allow him the benefit of praise for his actions because we will never know whether all BA Captains, with the benefit of their training, would have responded equally or not.

[QUOTE]Since I'm apparently as thick as a plank and you apparently have more knowledge about what was happening in the cockpit than the entire French investigation team, I'd suggest you call them and offer the inquiry your expert opinion. It's clearly wasted here./QUOTE]

Thick as a plank ?? Dunno, just a tad slow prehaps ?
Anyhoo, I think there is a thread somewhere that fits the 447 topic.

Yep, that's right.

When I'm trying to save the lives of hundreds of passengers and crew (not least my own!!), a MAJOR priority is making sure they know where to look for the bodies should I fail........

MONUMENTALLY stupid initial comment, made all the worse by the above attempt to justify the indefensible.....

Why has this thread about BA038 (B777) become the place to argue about a MayDay call (or lack thereof) on AF477?

Especially since twice, there seems to be confusion about the one being discussed.

For Pete's sake

I wish i had a vacancy............ i'd interview this guy in a heart beat.

GW

M.Mouse Ref: # 3194

Living up to your PPRuNe Moniker, are we ?

Hope you're never in the same position.

Bizman - spot on.

This thread...
 

...has clearly lost the will to live. It was good, now it needs to be put out of its misery. Send it to dignitas, someone, please....

Pinkman sir,

I do know what you mean after some of the recent posts here but, ultimately, I do disagree with you; as a fully paid up head banging veteran of every post I think we need to keep this thread going until we get the final report.

Yes I bought the book.

I have been both informed and saddened by it, I am quite certain that most families would not have coped as well as PB's.

From the normality of obscurity to feeling the need to employ Max Clifford is frightening indeed and this visited on a chap who, at the very least, is judged to have done a "good job".

Lets keep it rolling if we can.

CW

Do you mean the final report published in February 2010?

AAIB Link to report.

Having read much of this thread, and listened to the podcast, I can only conclude that Peter Burkhill has been very severely wronged by BA management and badly let down by BALPA.

As I see it, (from the perspective of being a retired 757/767 captain and I guess most pilots would share this view, so I may be stating the obvious) cabin crew trainers are NOT qualified to make any judgement about a pilot's technical handling of an accident such as this particularly when they are not privy to an investigation which has not even been concluded.

For cabin crew trainers, of all people, to make judgement of this captain, or indeed any other pilot, BEFORE the publication of the internal BA report and BEFORE the publication of the AAIB report and pass on this criticism to their trainees strikes me as grossly irresponsible to put it mildly.

Perhaps someone legally qualified could cast some light on whether Peter might have grounds to sue the perpetrators for slander, it should not be difficult to track down those "trainers".

In the meantime I wish him every good luck for the future.

Absolutely. And demonstrates perfectly how dysfunctional BA is at LHR.

So, what does all this prove??...

NEVER, EVER, go into print after a prang!

Buying the book is one way of showing our support for Peter. It has been tough for him and all this for saving the lives of many.

I look forward to reading the book. I just hope that the cabin crew trainer who spread this rumour was not just passing on what someone else in another management position or training position had told him.

I have bought Peter`s book and am half way through it. I must say I am flabbergasted by its revelations to such an extent that I will have to put a sling around my head to avoid a Gordonian jaw droop. Has anyone read the book and what is their view.

How about some perspective? Through no fault of their own, Burkill and Coward landed a 150 ton glider reasonably close to the runway, without loss of life, and the Boeing deserved to be written off for letting them down. What would a pax on Colgan have given to be with these two chaps instead of chatty and the screamer in Buffalo? What about the Turkish? Their a/c was serviceable, but they managed to screw the Poodle anyway. The Mary thread is in San Francisco, let's have a break from the whining. Pete, John, :ok:

bear

It isn't the first time that someone in BA has made a misrepresentation of an aircraft accident to make a training point. Twice I have had to pull a trainer up for it. On one occasion they would have had no real knowledge of the incident and no real technical knowledge of the subject at all and in the other they should just have known better.

I read Pete and Marias book within a couple of days of getting it. I'ts not a happy read and sadly I wasn't surprised at much of the contents with respect to BA's actions. It's a very personal reflection of what happened to them and worth buying to support a super crew who were dealt a very poor hand in more ways than one.

I am also half way through reading Pete and Maria's book. I would like to point out that it has been an excellent read so far and is very difficult to put down!

The way that Pete and Maria were handled by BA is beyond ridiculous. I couldn't believe BA's approach to this entire incident. I was gobsmacked. I wasn't entirely surprised by the actions of this country's press.

However Pete, I do want to ask you/Maria a question. Do you regret reading the tabloids after this incident? I think, in hindsight, that reading the tabloids was probably not the best of ideas because tabloids tend to make somebody look like a hero one moment and then a villain the next, without any concrete facts.

The rumours which circulated on the other hand could not have helped your recovery process. In fact, if I was you and was told that cabin crews were being told by trainers that I had froze at the controls, I would have confronted the trainers personally and put them straight.

Anyway, good luck with finding a job. I will read the rest of the book within a few days and then post a review on Amazon!

P.S: Oh, I found it extraordinary that John posed for the tabloids with his family and BA advised you not to.

I've read the book as well, and it is an excellent read. The main thing that stands out is the incompetence of the BA management and BALPA in dealing with the situation, it appeared as though they didn't care about Peter and basically left him to fend for himself. I'm glad I no longer work for BA.

The book is an excellent read-it arrived on Saturday and it got read cover to cover,I couldn't put it down.
Think BA treated Pete and Maria very badly-the CC trainers should be totally ashamed of themselves.
Buy the book-it is available in many places and well worth a read:ok:

I am another who has purchased Peter and Maria's most excellent book it is an eye opener the way the situation was dealt with by this airline and,what they have been through as a family since in coming to terms and dealing admirably with the situation.
I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally.
Still, Peter and Maria best of luck for the future things will turn around for you of that I am sure.

Quote from d71146

"I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally"

Could not agree more with you d71146, a bad decision, lets hope management types have learned from it.

I will also be buying the book and look fwd to reading it.

Best wishes to all the crew and passengers on that flight.

Whilst I think about it, Explosive decompression on an aircraft operating low level off the horn of africa one crew member almost lost. Aircraft under control - sort of, no one to hear a mayday, first opportunity lets relay it!! - great idea until you realise you get the only guy on the planet who says the exact opposite of what you said to who you want it to be said to!!! May Day calls don't neccessarily do what you want them to do!!!!

Am I missing the point in this conversation re taking action against the Airline and individual pilot management. As a retired BA pilot it was my understanding that Captain Burkhill had taken voluntary retirement, probably trusting for further employment as a direct entry captain. Unfortunately that did not materialise for whatever reason.

Robert f Jones wonders whether he is missing the point. Well the point is simply this. Peter was 43 years of age at the time of the accident, with 12700 hrs of flying time to his credit, an unblemished record and a loyal long serving employee of BA, whose pilot training had been sponsored by BA. He was offered and accepted so called "early retirement".
Why should anyone of his age and position retire early. It leads one to suspect that it was not a matter of retirement but was one of resignation. Is it not a possibility that there may have been irresistible financial inducements, sufficently persuasive, particularly influential at such difficult times when he was unable to exercise best judgment, for him to accept to be fitted out with the gentle cloak of retirement. So the ultimate question is was he gently leaned on, pushed or shoved out of BA.
The question for law is whether or not there is a case for constructive dismissal. Ofcourse in seeking redress in law would the outcome of such a course of action be likely to yield a better remedy for Peter and his family.
It would seem there simply is no accident without a victim.

That's unusual; what were the circumstances?

Climbing, pressurisng, door went bang. Indeed, unusual. Heads have been scratched.

[QUOTE]So the ultimate question is was he gently leaned on, pushed or shoved out of BA.[QUOTE]

Which is a very good question to ask.
I've read the book, in 2 days and that's because I was busy. These would have been trying times for a normal familiy ( 3 children in 3 years ), add a crash on top of this and you create the perfect environment for a well balanced individual to lose the plot.
Now, who is the sleezy twatt who sold that chocolate licking picture to the tabloïds ?
Second, how in God's name could a man let himself be so put down by trolley dollies gossip and quit his job ??
Third, BALPA calls itself a union ??? LOL !!! That's your idea of supporting a colleague ?? Go for a curry and get sloushed after a major accident ??? And then leave him with a fig leave when it comes to salary and reputation ?? We've heard the lousy job BA managers did but hey !!! smell the coffee here, what about BALPA when it came to the man's reputation. Nothing but a very loud silence. How about facing those trainers and do what you wrere supposed to do.............represent a member ???? Let me explain the concept to you : It spells " Making a claim on somebody else's behalf who cannot, at the given time, defend himself as well as he otherwise would " Capicce ???
I'm sure no one at BA or BALPA gives a toss about Peter Burkill's fate and now he is out not even his book will create a ripple in this " pond of corporate tranquility " .

I seem to remember that on early retirement or voluntary severance as BA call it you sign to say that you will not take any legal action against BA. Don't know if this would actually stand up to legal scrutiny.

The book, a terrific read, raises more questions than it answers.
My lasting impression will be one that the Burkill's treatment by his employer was an utter disgrace.

Why was the Captain isolated from his crew in the immediate aftermath?
Why all the immediate questioning after the end of a very long traumatic day?

How can any organisation promote getting its staff drunk as a solution to dealing with shock?
Why was he kept from the ones that he cared about for so long?
Why was there no moral, humanitarian and immediate financial support given to his wife and family?
Couldn't his employer even provide him with some clothing at the end of the day?
Why couldn't the internal report be produced in a more timely manner and when it was, why were the findings concealed from all but the management?

The company's disinterest or inability to deal with the rumours.

etc. etc. etc.

There seems to be a huge warning sign to this company's aircrew here - avoid accidents at all costs, because your employer is not going to do the right thing by you after the event.

I'm left bemused. Did Capt. Burkill and his F/O achieve the same outcome as Capt. Sullenberger and his F/O? Perhaps, by virtue of the later timescale, that statement should be reversed - but the US Air crew would not have been keen on Peter's treatment, would they.
If that is indeed the case and passengers and friends and families from both accidents are able to make the most of the lives that they are now lucky enough to have to-gether - then why are the different situations that these two pilots find themselves in like chalk from cheese?

Is this a European/British psyche versus the American? We know how good the British media are at shooting the good guys off pedestals!

Having gone through a clearly horrendous time, how long would it take and with what psychological support would the average person be able to make sound decisions about the shape their future should take? Even one that had shown the ultimate professionalism in the cockpit.

Yet again, the uninformed point the finger at his (their) decision making with little understanding of the pressures on them at probably a very emotional and vulnerable time.

We would like to think that passengers and their Friends & Family are well catered for post accident by the world's leading airlines.
Have some overlooked their crew's needs?

The accident happened at the airline's base - Heathrow. One can but contemplate their fete had the aircraft come down on another continent and the nights that his wife might have had to cope all alone having been instructed by B.A. to leave the sanctity of her own home.

BALPA ......on second thoughts, if all you'll need is a curry and a stiff drink, keep paying your dues.

Hopefully this whole fiasco will become an academic case study for an esteemed psychologist/psychiatrist and lessons can be learned and safeguards enshrined.

GK340, the points you have raised are excellent and were exactly what I was thinking when I was reading the book.

BA and BALPA handled this dreadfully. Were Cpt Eric Moody and the rest of his crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1982? Were Cpt Tim Lancaster, F/O Alastair Atchison and the rest of their crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1990?

As for your point about US Airways 1549 - I did initially think about that. However, with the US Airways incident, it was far more obvious to the public at the time that it was not pilot error, whereas with BA 038 it was not absolutely known what the problem was and whether the crew had made a slip up during the flight.

I also wondered why the ATC tapes were released to the public for the US Airways flight and not BA flight. Could somebody answer this? I'm assuming (and most likely wrong) that it was because there were two mistakes (understable given the pressure!!!!!) by Pete on the BA ATC tapes - even though they were very minor.

BA038
 

May I offer another reaon why I absolutely believe this whole thing stinks.

In the last ten years or so TWO One World jets have been destroyed, a QF 744 in BKK (yes I know it was "repaired" ) and the BA777 at LHR.

I have read the accident reports on both :
In one, a perfectly serviceable jet was "badly mishandled" being polite after reading the CASA synopsis. The Captain still flies, with his original employer, having made some very serious and fundamental errors of basic airmanship which caused the "loss" of his aircraft. I make that statement after almost 20 years in the LHS of various Boeings and after reading the report in detail.

In the other, a captain saved a situation which few, if any, of us had been trained for. He had less than 50 seconds before he hit the ground. The report makes NO significant criticism of his handlng of the event and concurrs that his flap retraction WAS the right and only thing he could have done to save the day.

This captain is now out of a job.

That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice.

You couldn't have summed it up better RetiredBA/BY!

"This captain is now out of a job. That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice" me too and I'm sure a whole lot of other folk!

RetiredBA/BY/J.Jetset
 

I also agree with your comments, it is a HUGE injustice - it is a national disgrace, which makes me ashamed to be British.

I have just started to read Peter and Marias book, so I will be returning.

Why don't you folk at BA and other British airlines and unions get together and petition the heck out of BA to fix the situation.

They could now make some great publicity out of it........ or more the point Virgin Atlantic, and Sir Richard is always looking for a timely shot at BA. That would be a sweet victory for VA.

After all he offered Sully the world if he wanted it........

Not part of the industry, but as this discussion seems to be considering attitudes and actions of senior managers I'd just like to make an observation if I could, based on experience of similar happenings in other industries.

Of course its an injustice, an absolutely terrible injustice, but senior managers don't seem to want, for want of a better term 'heroes' - leaders who can perform under terrific pressure and cope with the most dire of circumstances in a way that perhaps many couldn't. They don't want people who the general public look up to and recognise are deserving of the utmost respect, because, I suspect they show where the TRUE worth and professionalism lies. Their presence could become an embarrassment and result in a lack of public support for management at the next round of pay cuts etc, or worse still, when it is revealed how much the CEO and his mates earn compared to the real 'heroes'. So after the initial lauding, they are quietly pushed to one side to avoid further embarrassment.

Sorry for butting in, but my thanks to all those to whom I entrust my life every time I step on an aircraft.

I really really liked the book and would like to thank Peter and Maria for writing it. It is a heartbreaking story - I am a pilot but in some respects the parts of the book which affected me most were Maria's accounts of how she and the children coped in the hours, days and weeks which followed the crash. The book is well written and I would recommend it to anyone.

I have now given some serious thought to the steps I would take in the immediate aftermath of such a serious incident. My wife and I also have a far clearer idea now of what we would need to do to as a family and how we might deal with the press intrusion.

I hope, like the authors, that this book will cause BA to stop and think about its internal procedures. In particular I find it bizarre that BA had no procedure for taking care of Maria and the children in the hours after the incident. If they want the wives of staff members to avoid the press perhaps they might consider being a bit more proactive in helping out when a pack of photographers pitch up outside? I also find it hard to understand how Flight Ops managers appeared unable to address some defamatory statements about Peter being issued from SEP trainers.

Peter I'm sorry you felt you had to leave BA. I hope life works out. I know there is something of a campaign to get you back in which I hope works out if that's what you want to do now.

You - and your wife - are heroes.

Talk about being hang out dry by blatantly non founded gossip and rumors!
Those SEP trainers should have been fired :*

Does anyone know if they have been at list reprimanded ?

The way BA's management handle the situation is a total disgrace!

OverFlare
 

Sadly a lot of us find it very easy to understand...