PB's story is covered in one of the Sunday's here

Shame, shame, shame, BA Tech Crew should be holding their heads low after allowing this to have happened.

Some solidarity around a colleague after a major incident or accident, would have been the decent thing to do.

Reserving judgement and quashing rumuor until the official findings are clear.

Wow IM1234 you were quick!

Also here

And if you want the full unedited version it's here


I expect some people will find reason to slate me for doing this story but I hope that most will understand the position I am in and therefore tolerate my decisions.

Mmmayday38

See my post 26. I did warn you that you would regret leaving BA. You were not forced out but took voluntary redundancy.Harsh maybe but true.You should have had the courage of your convictions and remained at BA.

You were naive in the extreme in thinking you would get any other job yet alone on a B777 as only large well known airlines operate them and I take no pleasure in seeing that my predictions have come true.

Perhaps you should pay Pablo Mason a visit at his hotel in Leamington Spa and compare notes.

Best of luck still for the future.

thegypsy
 

It's not up to you judge anyone's decisions unless you 'have walked in their shoes'.You weren't there.

TWT If he chooses to air his washing in public then he must expect comments like mine.

The Gypsy
Not only were you not "there", but you haven't had to put up with what happened afterwards. Least the Captain had the courage to walk away. On that basis alone I wish his luck changes

Peter,
Without knowing the "ambience" that you felt going to work I don't think it is fair that any of us pass judgement on your leaving decision, and I hope nobody would have the cheek to criticise any decision you make as regards contact with the press, finally we all need to eat.
With the benefit of hindsight it is all too easy to say that you should have secured some commitment from another company before taking the plunge, but it was your call on the day.
Perhaps too, the long term effects of this accident could also have manifested themselves in an ¡ncreased sensitivity to perceived criticism, but to be honest I think that is just touchy-feely BS, and you were merely hurt and piqued by the veneer of respect shown by some who knew cack all, that in reality cloaked back stabbing snipes at your professionalism.
Knowing you had done the right thing, whilst feeling at the same time "gagged", and even ,for chrissakes, not trusted, is indeed not a very healthy working environment.

All of us here (well the ones that count anyhow, I won't speak for a few "notable" exceptions) have admired your patient handling of sometimes inane criticism/probing into, your actions that day. It is only partially possible for us to imagine the frustration of having 30 very frantic unrehearsed seconds of your life replayed in slo-mo and subjected to conjecture by some who frankly appeared not to know their @rse from their elbow.

One unfortunate by product of your participation in this forum, and through TV interviews, your website and the book, is that you can be perceived by H.R. Dept's of various airlines as a "personality/celebrity".
I fully understand in the modern soundbite era how you have ended up in this situation, however, it remains a sad fact of life that most of the "human resources" types (and indeed CEO'S/ Chief Pilots ) do not want someone with a "personality" or even an "opinion" on their hands.
The old joke concerning how a line pilot would like his chief pilot to refer to him, when mentioned . . . " I would like him to say WHO ? " springs to mind here. :hmm:
Hopefully some company with a modicum of imagination will see beyond your unchosen "circumstances" and employ you as "Capt Any Bloke" in the near future.
You deserve no less, we are all rooting for you, I know however that doesn't change much ,as DFO'S/ C.P.'s don't conduct a straw poll before offering positions.
You have a great deal of admiration from, & the support of, your peer group, I hope that is at least a crumb of comfort, whilst you get your life sorted.
All the best :ok:

TheGypsy
 

Maybe no-one physically forced me out of BA, however for the sake of my sanity,marriage and family I felt emotionally forced out. I have been approached since with ex-colleagues/friends questioning whether I was in the right frame of mind to make this decision but at the time it seemed the only thing possible. I had also been given an informal nod that I would have a job to go to and this appeared like an escape route.

You were the only person who ever voiced (and even then it was after I had already left - due to no fault of your own) the thought that other large airlines would refuse to take me based on the premise of the crash and publicity. No-one at BA, either management or union ever passed that thought or suggestion - when they knew I was thinking of leaving.

I have over 13,000 hours total on heavy jets all multi-crew
Almost 10,000 hours on 777 with over 3,500 hours as PIC
I hold a current ICAO ATPL
My english language is fluent
I am current - within 12 months
I have a valid medical

With the above qualifications I more than qualify for an interview with an airline recruiting for 777. I deserved an interview, yet as you have rightly pointed out NO interview came. So what would the reasoning behind that be?

***(obviously I've applied to other airlines with a lot smaller aircraft, I have not been surprised that I've not had an interview with them as I am not type-rated and there are more than enough type-rated pilots out there who deserve the job above me)***

Other pilots who have had crashes have been interviewed and succesfully became employed. So why is mine different?

The high profile nature of it and media attention around me?

Is this my fault? The immediate aftermath of the crash and media attention was invoked due to the company I was flying for and the airport we impacted into. This was not my fault. The AAIB have ruled it was not my fault. The AAIB have commended my actions.

Therefore 'thegypsy', should I assume that you are inferring that from my moment of impact on 17 Jan 2008, I had become unemployable to the rest of the airlines worldwide?

I remained silent until the final report was released. I had already been refused an interview by these various airlines BEFORE my website/BBC TV interview/mention of our book. Therefore, it goes back to the fact that airlines must have been put off by the publicity that surrounded the actual crash, not MY website etc.

I will make the future better for my family and I. As I say in my blog, there are times I get bitter but when those times happen I have to push them to one side. I cannot allow myself to wallow. It is sad and it isn't fair but as a family we will turn this around.

Sadly, 'thegypsy' your prediction has come true, and if anything, let this be a warning to unsuspecting future pilots who are unfortunate to be involved in a high profile incident.

Peter,

You are by no means alone in making career decisions that months or years later, hindsight tells you that the premises for the decision, including declined opportunities because of misplaced loyalty to an employer that did not deserve it, were incorrect.

Your situation confers a black eye on the entire industry.

Quote from captplaystation:
...it remains a sad fact of life that most of the "human resources" types (and indeed CEO'S/ Chief Pilots ) do not want someone with a "personality" or even an "opinion" on their hands.
The old joke concerning how a line pilot would like his chief pilot to refer to him, when mentioned . . . " I would like him to say WHO ? " springs to mind here.

Spot on. Without reference to any particular case, these guys are terrified that their part of the operation might be the subject of controversial scrutiny, possibly jeopardising their grip on a greasy pole.

It's a cliché to say that fleet managers, and their dwindling number of flight-crew assistants, have to spend too much time at their desks, but it means that their peer group – the people they need to ingratiate themselves with – now consists mainly of people who have no cockpit experience.

There was a time when CEOs and Chief Pilots were arguably too ready to heap praise on their pilots in the aftermath of an accident. There is now a culture that the line operation is a completely straightforward business, which should be 100% reliable. Today's fleet managers – themselves often relatively inexperienced in the line operation – may be guilty of tacitly accepting this illusion, in the interest of keeping on-side.

In the event of any incident – or even a costly delay – lengthy discussions will usually uncover some perceived error on the part of the crew, generally showing the captain to be fallible in some degree. It's a long time before he or she lives down the resulting stigma, even if any formal investigation absolves him/her of blame.

Administrators, on the other hand, seem to be relatively immune from the consequences of their errors, do not have to possess a licence, let alone a type rating, and are in a position to negotiate their pay when switching employer. Management pilots are less mobile in their employment, unless they have qualifications in other fields. With mortgages and pensions to protect, brave decisions are best avoided.

Sad Fact
 

Peter,

Whether you are a "hero" pilot or not for your actions on BA038 I cannot judge. But sure as heck you are not at fault for the plane crash. 100% blameless is absolutely sure.

It is clear that the irrational fear of office bureaucrats has predjudiced them against them hiring you. A bit strange. Movie companies do their best to hire the biggest celebrities that they can find to attract attention to their films. I don't think Sully's fame was a negative thing for his airline. I would think your "celebrity" and "hero" status might be a bonus for some airlines.

Anyhow, my advice is to legally change your name and go find an undercover job for a few years flying for Air Siberia. Fair? No. But maybe better than the alternatives you may be facing at the moment.

pothole

Actually

I would suggest keeping your name and maybe apply for a corporate operator. There are many good jobs available, even today and regardless of what the general public or your previous employer might think to the publicity, the CEO that understands his life is in the hands of the chaps (chapesses) up front will know, that when the chips were down, your actions brought about the best result of a bad situation. Thats the kind of stuff the boss wants to know we are all made of. Thankfully...... we never really get to let him know if his faith in us is misplaced or not.

If its something you want to consider and need help with...... PM me

I hope these leading airlines around the world take note of all this and one of them makes the wise decision of hiring Peter. A hero pilot who is more than deserving of an opportunity.

Just an idle thought:

There was once another BA pilot who was also uncomfortable with the media attention given to his equally spectacular "incident".

After unsuccessfully trying to avoid the limelight he finally accepted the inevitable and concluded that he may as well become a media aviation "expert" where at least he could control the media comment on his own event and might just add a little informed comment to the complete nonsense poured out by journalists with every other new aviation incident. Maybe Peter could consider following Eric Moody.

Heaven knows there's a need for someone to interpret modern aviation to the idiots who call themselves Transport Correspondents these days.

Hey Driver,

You said

I think you will find that BA tech crew were proud of Pete's handling of the incident and have no criticism of him.

It was the cabin crew instructors that spread rumours that upset Pete.

I suspect a lot of the criticisms on this forum by people who were not there, not qualified on the 777 and not familiar with BA procedures probably upset him too.

Have you thought of reapplying to BA Pete? I'd be happy to see you reinstated in your original position and seniority. It would be a nice gesture from BA to make an exception for you.

Pete, I said I didn't think you should go in Hong Kong and I stand by that.

There is an increasing groundswell of opinion in BA that you should come back to us, and those I've spoken to below you (Including myself) are MORE than happy to take a drop of one in seniority to welcome you back to the fold.

Have you thought about it? Maybe the mis-informed crew have thought better about their comments now the details are out.You, John and Connor did us all proud on that day.

Give it some thought...We'd really like you back!! :ok::ok::ok:

Jumpjim and suninmyeyes,
Your comments are first class, BRAVO !

The desert's impact on Judgment??
 

I'm very surprised by the impact that the desert seems to have on Chief Pilots' and CEOs' judgment, and very possibly their integrity..

Why these guys in the sandpit have been less than completely honest with Peter is beyond me.

I know that one of the Chief Pilots regularly reads pprune. I wonder if he would care to defend his (apparent/alleged) er, very mixed messages, on here??

Maybe the ranting that some of the sandpit pilots do in the Middle East threads is accurate.

As an ex-military pilot, who has some knowledge of this incident but has not read the whole thread I can only say that such an event occuring in the Military would probably result in an early award of a Queen's Commendation for Valuable Services in the air, a lot of goodwill and kudos within the Service and perhaps a promotion.

The Media
 

PB,
The media have always scared airline management, unless the story was favourable to the airline.

This whole BA038 story is a good example of of the diminishing support tech crews receive by airlines, supporting their staff until the final report is in public.

I think it is also fair to say, it is possible your situation was not as well handled by your company/media departments as it should have been or lets hope that the industry is reminded about the silent personal suffering tech crews may endure after been deemed "hero's" by the airline, the media and the public.

I trust that some B777 carriers could see the value in having you on board soon. It is now clear you did all you could to save that load of people that day and am sure the SLFs will board just as quickly knowing that PB was in the front left seat.

As a PB supporter on this thread along the bumpy ride of its contents, simply just want to say "wishing you all the best for the future."

If you were an airline recruitment manager would you employ:

a) a well known name, associated with a nasty accident not of his making, who has his own website, has written a book (which the author has implied contains a few things which his former management will not like) and resigned from the accident company for reasons which remain unclear?

or

b) a qualified pilot with good references?

Most of us feel the same sentiment.

But he "felt" he was forced out. Do I see a case of Constructive Dismissal" looming?

M Mouse
 

The book covers the crash and the aftermath. The reasons for leaving will therefore be clear. The book is factual and if the 'former management' do not like it, then hopefully they will learn from what happened and ensure no other pilot has to experience the same. The book can be seen as something to learn from and I hope that they will take something from it.

Therefore anything that may appear to be negative can be rectified by acknowledging there was a flaw in the system and finding ways to fix it. The clock cannot be turned back for me, but if 'former management' can see that things could be different then the book can be turned into a positive.

Refusals for interview came before there was a website, before there was talk of a book. Refusals for interview cannot be blamed on the site or book.

My name and incident were high profile - not my fault.


I am qualified on the 777 and BA would give me a reference so I definitely fall into catagory B!

What say a campaign for a PB gong? MBE/OBE - you tell me.

I look at some of the showbiz names that get these and think "you must be kidding - or on Class A controlled "; now here's a chap who really has done something useful!

Yes I know, criteria.

And yes, I've bought a book.

CW

What is realy the reason that some airlines would not employ a pilot involved in a crash,even when invastgation give him credit for doing a good job.I have heard stories of doctor,s saying post traumatic stress can give flashback in a new emergency,but this is I belive a very inaccurate science.I strongly belive a pilot who is climbing on the horse again so soon after such an event as Mr Burkill did,will do it with growing confidence knowing he can handle an emergency.Most pilots never face a critical situation like this,and it is natural to think "How will I react if this or that happen?"
To Mr Burkill:Hope you will get a new job soon.If not succeding with a 777 job,could you consider another aircraft type?You have probably many typeratings which I off course know nothing about.I know that in Scandinavian there is no major different in pilot,s pay between an 737 driver or an A330 driver,but I am not sure how this is in the rest of the world between the different aircraft size,s
Anyway I wish you and you family a happy future,and hope I will be your passanger one day.

Peter,

What I am about to say is said with the following in mind:

1. Nobody but you knows how you felt after returning to work - it must have been both trying and frustrating to say the very least what with the rumour mill in overdrive.

2. The 130,000 (less taxmans share) plus an implied nod with another carrier no doubt seemed very appealing especially given point 1.

3. The desire to put pen to paper and document your version must have been huge, especially since the company were so sluggish in stopping the rumour mill in its tracks - Robert Piche (Air Transat A330) and Bob Pearson (AC 767 Gimli Glider) have both done it.

That said (and understanding there was a time window element to the VR scheme), maybe it would have been more prudent to forego the VR golden handshake, instead secure in writing a place with another outfit no matter how long it took and leave after the standard three month notice period. At least that way you would still be doing the job you love, still have your family home etc etc.

That out of the way, you and your crews actions were beyond words.

Sir, I salute you.

CB

Peter,

I was driving home from having flown one sector this morning and was very moved by your story on Radio 5 Live. How you described the event and what happened was one of the most gripping pieces of radio I have ever heard.

I think what happened afterwards to you sums up a great deal about what aviation is like today.

Maybe the beancounters who run airlines these days realise that doing double entry book keeping will never turn up a situation where they might be lauded a hero and thus don't want someone to take the limelight away from them (However inadvertantly). Hence the constant down grading of aircrew's Ts and Cs and general status in society.

All I can say is that you did a fantastic job and i wish you and your family all the very best for the future.

VERY late on this thread, may I just say as an ex-ATCO [military] I wish you the very best of luck for the future?

I have seen, from Local, too many people who did not achieve what you did. I have seen the smoking holes, and watched it happen whilst hitting the Crash bells far too often ... and had the traditional "drink on his Bar Book until midnight" because the Mess Bill will be written off. I don't want to think about counting how often, but having been there too often it's a difficult feeling.

You and your pax walked away. :ok:

God bless and good luck for your future.

I also heard your explanation on radio 5 live. As a Licensed Engineer, I applaud your actions, I am sure that you will find alternative employment in time.
Best Regards,

Mayday Calls
 

Whilst in the sim, people parrot out the correct Mayday call with the correct info in the event of calamity - particularly engine fire on ground etc. It apears that for a variety of reasons, these calls are not made in the event of the real thing

When the BA RJ nose leg collapsed at LCY last year, all that came over the radio was a shrieked ladies voice stating '......This is an emergency!.....' - nothing more. In that case, the important info was the number of people on board and that they are stopping and evacuating on the runway or heading for a swim (which would have been very useful if it was about to happen) - it was blindingly (i.e. sparks in the dark) obvious that an emergency was underway. LCY had lots of turboprops with engines running within yards of the BA RJ - ready for the pax to walk into the props

Reading the book, a lot of emphasis is placed on the lack of this call. In the BA 777 case, it would not have made any difference. At LCY, with the BA RJ, it would have been vital if the BA RJ had been landing the other way (r/w 10) in reduced viz and heading into the water etc

I think the BA training could be imprpoved to cover this aspect and the AAIB report did not highlight this as a safey issue in either the BA 777 or BA RJ reports

Peter

As a 777 skipper ( AF ) I find your story very humbling. We can all be as cocky as we want, when fate makes the kind of call you had to handle, how many of us would come out blameless. I sure hope to God this never happens to me.

The kind of crap you apparently had to deal with withing your own airline is mind blowing and of course it is hard to put oneself in your shoes as to why you took such a decision. However, my woossy self tends to think I wouldn't have ventured out in the cold and certainly not with an " informal " promise from Emirates of all bean counters.
So, you made a bad decision. Should you be left out to dry for it ??? I think not and I strongly support the view you should be reinstated as a 777 Captain.
Had I known you then, I would never have told you other airlines were going to snatch your hand given the sour course your story had taken. Airlines hate publicity they cannot control. We learned it the hard way following the loss of 447.

One more question : what became of your relationship with your 2 copilots while you were considering leaving ? I take it that they stayed, didn't they ?
I've ordered your book and I am looking foward to a very informative read.
All the very best.

Me

Mayday calls have a use if you have the luxury of time to do something and receive help. If not as in this case a total waste of time,same for the ditching in the hudson,the ryanair birdsrikes in rome.Nothing would have changed if they spent the whole time broadcasting mayday.
A lot of companies over train in the use of mayday calls. Thinking time is more important than mayday calls.

What an intergalactical stupid thing to say.
The guys were trying to keep this aircraft flying with hundreds of fault messages on the screen trying to figure out what the hell is going on.
What is a mayday call going to achieve in the middle of the Atlantic where no one can help you.
Are you for real ?

Prioritize
 

1. Aviate
2. Navigate
3. Communicate

and if that doesn't work:

1. Protection
2. Location.
3. Water
4. Food
:}

Thought out in advance so we don't have to.

Peter

I have just listened to your interview with Glenn Pew on AvWeb:
The Crash of BA038

Two things struck me about your interview:
1. Your command decision to leave John as PF while you took command of the situation was outstanding, and clearly led to the next decision which saved a worse outcome.
2. Your command decision, devoid of any procedural or sim justification, to go F25 has been vindicated as resulting in a far better outcome than hitting the ILS antenna.

Your description of your 6 secs of aircraft checks that led to the decision to go F25 demonstrates true Command skill. You gave yourself thinking time from a broader perspective.

Reading that, my thoughts turned to AA965 on 20Dec1995; the B757 that hit terrain at night after a botched approach to Cali, Columbia. Although the FO, who was PF and equally as experienced on the B757 as the Capt, the report stated "Although the accident flightcrew articulated misgivings several times during the approach, neither pilot displayed the objectivity necessary to recognize that they had lost situation awareness and effective CRM."

Interpreted, this suggests the Capt failed to look at the whole situation and recognise the flight as having departed a whole set of criteria required to continue the approach. Once the GPWS sounded and the FO executed the escape manoeuvre, he appears not to have done what you did in scanning and ensuring the aircraft configuration was optimal. He missed the air brakes still being extended. The aircraft impacted 250 feet below the top of the ridge. As with the AAIB, the report could not speculate on the outcome had they been retracted in time, other than to say "Because the B-757 flight simulators could not be back driven during the tests, it could not be determined with precision whether the airplane would have missed the mountain/tree tops if the speedbrakes had been retracted during the escape attempt." We are all left to guess that outcome. It is one of multiple events during their approach where "if only if..."

And that "if only" comes back to the Captain exercising command overview, rather than getting buried in the operating mode.

Peter, I chose the AA965 example simply to illustrate that your command of BA38 that day was exemplary, and will be studied by pilots for years to come. Not necessarily for any heroics, or piloting skills, but for the subtle, professional, skilled SITUATIONAL MANAGEMENT you demonstrated.

Sir, I tip my hat to you, and wish you a productive, happy future, now that you have given yourself the opportunity to play a far larger and more important role than as "just another" Captain (not said with any disrespect).

Now you can pass on experience, perspective, and inspiration to many more people in a broader cross-section of skills development, and make a bigger (and deservedly more remunerative) contribution as a result. I am sure you will have new opportunities presented to you now ... having shifted your perspective from returning to airline Captaincy.

I have one question. Since that day, have you ever considered whether an alternate action could have been useful, i.e. after going F25, lowering the nose to gain speed, and then using ground effect to stretch the glide to the runway?

Sailplane pilots know the major increase in L/D achieved on "hangar flights" from the far end of the runway once at about a wingspan above the ground. Of course, this is way outside any airline or Boeing practice, or possibly even any study, but I wonder if you had been presented with a serious undershoot, whether you would have encouraged John to "lower the nose ...." ?

Sincere best wishes
:D:D:D

Don't think anyone has posted this. Peter's words don't put certain elements of BA in a very favorable light.

Quite a difference in hearing it from him rather than reading his reports of the aftermath.

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2...hCaptain-B.mp3

I hope these links work?

Peter,

Why would you give a rats ____ what the CC are/were saying. Basically I can imagine that the average CC gossip exchange is similar to a bunch of extras around the tea urn on location for the filiming of "Priscilla Queen of the Desert".

I'm probably too politically incorrect to work for a company like BA, but if I did, in your situation I would have been tempted to gather for a pre-flight brief, look them straight in the eye and tell them that if they had any problems flying with you, they should take a sickie.....maybe have the FO standing on your shoulder to emphasise that if he is happy to fly with you, so should they be.

Having brought you down with their childish back biting and juicy rumour mongering, behaviour that they should have left behind in primary six, they are now busy trying to bring down the airline and who would blame you if you were savouring the managements discomfort at this moment......

Wonder how long this will stay up before I receive CC hate mail :} or before it is :mad: by a CC mod with a thin skin...

Good luck to you Peter, I hope it works out in the end for you..


Best

Rmac

rmac

I totally agree with you and I hope Pete gets his job back with BA soon:D:D

rmcd

Why would there be so many? I thought the engines were still running albeit at low power and that nothing had failed.

Sorry to interrupt your eulogising but that is the way BA train the handling of the majority of non-normal situations.

That would be good because I know of several others who took VR who would also like to rejoin.