Since the financial crisis SAS has made a profit every year except 2014. Compare that to NAS...

Well, agree to disagree I guess. I still think that this is the time for keeping most airlines up and running with other than normal market forces. I think most legacy carriers would rather be fighting it out with the likes of Norwegian than Ryanair and Wizz - Because that's a battle they will lose in the long run. The general population have a short memory. I think we will see a fairly quick return in pax numbers at the end of the year (not as before, naturally) and as soon as we find a better way of treating Covid-19 there will be more people interested in travelling. But hey - i'm an optimist.... We will se on the 4th of May....

Best of luck....

SAS has been bailed out 4 or 5 times and was finally getting better. If they can get it right after a crisis with a bit of government help, so can Norwegian. Still hoping for the best. We need some good news in european aviation!

Exactly!!! And is more or less when NAS started to open bases outside Scandinavia

Made on the backs of cheap sub contracted labour, now threatening your very own existence! X fly, Cityjet, Nordica ...Your own CEO is trying to replace you, all the while SAIL is taking over more and more of your network. Upgrades on forced part time during winter, variable rosters. The list is endless.

SAS = Debt 50 billion swedish kr. Equity 4.4 billion. Don't come here and spout drivel. How many loan guarantees from the scandi governments were issued between 2008 and 2012 to save SAS? Norwegian might be in trouble, but SAS is right behind them.

If Norwegian employed their staff under Norwegian contracts, paid Norwegian tax, and domiciled their cash in Norway as per their deceptive namesake, then by all means they'd have the right to ask the Norwegian government for a bailout (regardless of if they operated JFK-CDG, or TFS-MUC).

However, they didn't. They opted to use as many legal loopholes as possible (not ethical, but legal) to minimize the burden on the company at the expense of the staff and pay as little tax as possible.

Now, when times are tough, they want taxpayer cash. Absolutely NOT!

This is called the chickens coming home to roost.

Playing silly buggers by operating multiple AOC's, employing some staff on third world contracts, and now expecting the same country you've tried to unethically swindle to hand over cash? Tough salami.

So you agree your first post regarding profitability was warm air, much like Kjos.

How many loan guarantees for SAS? I know there was 2. The first payed of with a significant financial gain for the government and therefore the tax payer. The 2nd was never used by SAS.

The Corona loan guarantee given to SAS (this one also not used) by the Norwegian government has the exact same conditions as Norwegians and Widerøe...

For the sake of the crews in NAS I wish for a good outcome. Be safe and healthy.

Norwegian Air’s Paradox: Strong COVID-19 Recovery, If It Avoids Bankruptcy Bu Forbes
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor...ds-bankruptcy/

What a load of BS.

Finally a well balanced piece of journalism, covering the positive as well as the negative facts regarding the current situation at NAS.

Forbes article is assuming flying post-COVID will be normal and we still don’t know that. Most probably it will take a lot to recover “normality”.

It also states: As Norwegian restructures, it may rely on its original market's where it is better known and financial performance is strong. Norwegian gained wider attention for its global that did not come close to Norway or anywhere in Scandinavia: London to Rio de Janeiro, Rome to Los Angeles.

A word to the wise...

I still fail to see how a market after COVID can give you a strong recovery but at the same time in the same market the creditors will be stuck with an asset that will not be in high demand as aviation suffers from over-capacity in the near future (if they don't accept Jacob's plan)

You think that the Norwegian taxpayer should be on the hook to save this airline?

The same airline with 7 AOC's and has 70% of their fleet registered overseas?
The same airline that domiciles as much of their European fleet as possible in Ireland specifically to evade Norwegian tax?
The same airline that employed crew on Thai contracts to avoid Norwegian employer obligations?

It's completely facetious to claim that these things are only necessities and not calculated methods of skirting their ethical obligations to save as much money as possible.

Now it's the Norwegian taxpayer's obligation to save this airline? Yeah, no.

NAS shares are down from almost $40 two years ago, to $0.50, with staggering debt. The writing is on the wall, as every sensible investor has agreed. Even Bjorn Kjos has pulled the rip cord and ejected. Judging by the recent stock performance there's not even a murmur of confidence in the operation.

If the Norwegian government should bail the airline out, it should be the Norwegian part of the operation only. If NAI needs saving, that's Dublin's prerogative; the same with NUK being London's problem. The Norwegian government shouldn't give a toss about British punters flying from LGW-JFK.

They've clearly tried to milk the fluidity of their Norwegian name to their advantage, however in these trying times it has come back to bite them on their backside. They could have easily distinguished their separate AOC's with different distinctive brands (without the Norwegian name), but opted not to. This is a mess of their own making.

It also assumes that the oil price stays low, as the articles arguement is that Norwegian will have a competitve advantage as all it's competitors have hedged at a higher price. Hmmm...

MDS,

Unfortunately, Norway cannot cherry pick which parts of the company to bail out because it's just one company, and its massive debt bonds are issued to that one company, the same as its shareholders and stock listings are just to one single entity, regardless of how many AOC's, European bases, or foreign staff they have in their network for operational reasons.

This is why the creditors must either believe in their whole project or not. And the same for a public bail out. Otherwise it simply does not make any sense because they would carry on an enormous debt to just keep a miniscule part of the operation, and that's just not worth it financially.

Also, if they bail out norwegian but only want the actual Nordic part, they will have to dismiss so much staff across their multiple bases (along with their severance packages) that would make it very difficult for them to start up again.

Again, it's either the whole package, or bankruptcy, and then YES. You can now pick up the pieces you want along with any other parties to create whatever you wish.

This Reuters article shows that the lease companies may feel a bit compromised and have little choice, although of interest is the statement:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-n...-idUSKBN21Z2V5

"A source close to one of the lessors described the talks as a “long shot”, while conceding that collapsed aircraft demand could work in the deal’s favour. “If we had somewhere else to move our planes, it would be liquidation,” the person said. Could be gossip, but if true suggests they would happily pull the plug if market conditions allowed.
What NAS need a huge credit line, wad of cash and a bit of luck...it would be a shame to see another newish player wiped out by reckless management, having said that the NAS management did try and address the problems in 2019, maybe a little too late..At least the re-structuring, plan closing Spanish bases and concentrating on LH ops profitability models may reap the rewards given their fuel price advantages.

So how does this stack up with the ownership requirements for the various AOC's?


Probably a fair point - what's the biggest gamble for the leasing company, support Norwegian and they carry on making their payments or let them go bust and place the a/c elsewhere....

[QUOTE=SWBKCB;10755906]So how does this stack up with the ownership requirements for the various AOC's?


The requirements don't change. Many airlines have different AOC's and registrations, but doesn't make them different entities when it comes to ownership. Even SAS has bases in continental Europe and an irish AOC for operational reasons.

And don't get me wrong. It may very well be that norwegian indeed goes bust and is then reborn as a Nordic player with just 737's. But that's not a bail out or a a debt to equity swap as it's being discussed right now. It'll be a full rebirth of something else, although with maybe even the same planes, part of the Nordic staff and even the same brand if the creditors get a fair price in liquidation.

MDS, can we stick to facts here please?

- There are 5 AOC's in the Norwegian group not 7!
- You claim that 70% of the fleet is based in Ireland for tax purposes, again nowhere close and it isn't for tax purposes. As Norway isn't an EU member, an EU AOC was required to get access to long haul markets hence NAI was set up. NAI however, was always supposed to be a Swedish operation based on the old flyNordic AOC which was kept dormant for that purpose once the takeover was completed. However, banking regulations in place in Sweden at the time had a clause that stated that in case of airline bankruptcies, the guarantors had no right to reposess their airframes which was something that the Americans had a problem with given that the aircraft order was facilitated by US ExIm financing, thus Sweden was no longer possible. Pretty much the only choice left then was Ireland and NAI was set up as an Irish operation. Since then, said banking regulation has been removed from Swedish law and NAI has now been downsized somewhat in favour of the Swedish AOC with over half the NAI fleet being placed there.
- Thai crews being employed on the cheap? The BKK base is no more! Say no more...

I fail to see the points you're trying to make! Lufthansa is being bailed out by the German government despite the Lufthansa Group consisting of several AOC's, several airlines mainly on non-German AOC's. SAS is being bailed out by Sweden, Denmark and Norway including their SAIL operation. The Polish government is bailing out LOT, despite the fact that the operation isn't only Poland based, TUI is being bailed out by the German government and what proportion of the operation is German based? etc etc... Multinational airlines with transnational operations consisting of several AOC's are widespread so that particular argument doesn't wash with me!

I will agree that mistakes have been made, but these were made by the previous regime that has now been replaced with seasoned professionals at the helm. Not airline managers no, but the so-called airline managers nearly ran the company in the ground. Having a retail specialist in charge that is an expert in branding is exactly what the company needs, boosting ancillary revenue is exactly what's needed, especially to make low cost long haul a success. Let's not write the company off just yet!

Norwegian Air Creditors May Have No Choice But to Accept Offer

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...o-accept-offer

...or pull the plug on impractical reality...because it's hard trying to make chickensalad out of chickensh|t. The share price is down 85% and market value is about $84 million. And that's below the value of just one (1) Dreamliner. Go figure.

Bond holders can normally extract a few cents in the dollar following administration, (unlike shareholders). I recall Gatwick slots were used as collateral elsewhere(?), but theyre likely to have valid claims on other liquidation assets, so it comes down to whether that's worth more than swapping the positions for equity. It's quite common for private equity to go short on the shares and long on the bonds in the dying days of a company.

Already posted see #373 above.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/minekonom...norwegianbolag
https://reut.rs/3brh4Zs

Very much as predicted a couple of weeks back, cut the limbs off and save core (K area) live (maybe) to fight another day.

Sad news, but that amount of debt is no match for Covid-19

Again, they're getting rid of staff employment subsidiaries which were already laid off anyway. That doesn't change the debt pile as they had no assets. Those companies are like agencies in their respective countries. No bondholder or government (including Norway) will jump into an €8,000 million debt pile to keep an small operation in Norway.

Also, I don't think it's coincidental that they have made headlines with Sweden and Denmark, as both countries denied help to norwegian.

Credit Suisse writes that the airline’s moves are “suggesting to us it may close its Gatwick/Spanish bases”. ? didn't they already state this as part of the planned "restructure" or was this the worst kept secret in history! thoughts go out for the people effected by this mess, not only crews but handlers and ground staff also ,and the way things are shaping up at Gatwick "ghost town" lights off at the end of the tunnel for the time being sadly. If there is any resurgence they should commit to taking on the displaced crews as a priority rather than come up with some more devious employment models in the name of "cost reduction"

Dear Colleagues

As reported earlier BALPA met in conference with the CEO & COO of OSM along with union representatives from across the Norwegian network.

We can report from the UK that all crews will remain employed by OSM, and OSM are actively pursuing the Job Retention Scheme for their employees.

BALPA is in constant contact with OSM, and we aim to provide members with a more detailed update via a conference meeting tomorrow. Members will be invited to participate via an email tomorrow.

During the OSM meeting OSMs’ CEO Espen Høiby provided the following press release:

Statement regarding Norwegian’s termination of agreement with OSM Aviation

We regret that Norwegian has chosen to terminate the agreement with OSM Aviation. We have kept a close dialogue with the company and had hoped that the agreement could be continued in some form until the airline receives crisis funds from the Norwegian authorities. In the upcoming days, we will evaluate the consequences for OSM Aviation and our employees.

Our goal is to retain our skilled employees so that we may quickly provide Norwegian and other airlines with pilots and cabin crew as soon as government restrictions cease, and people once again will have the opportunity to travel. The airlines have suffered huge losses as a result of the covid-19 crisis.

We would like to emphasise that OSM Aviation has great sympathy with the difficult situation that Norwegian and the rest of the aviation and tourism industry are facing. We have done everything we can to support Norwegian and other customers after the outbreak of the covid-19 epidemic and have maintained a close and good cooperation around the suspension or layoffs of air crew in many countries.

We do not agree with Norwegian on the grounds of termination of the agreement with OSM Aviation. At this point, however, we focus primarily on Norwegian coming to an agreement with their owners and creditors so that the company may qualify for crisis assistance from the authorities and can continue working with OSM Aviation as an important partner.

Great work by BALPA once again .... Keep everyone employed by ... nobody

What else do you suggest that Balpa does?

At least now the crews can be furloughed and get £2500 for the government. Otherwise it would be off to the Job Centre and down to Job Seekers Allowance at £97 every 14 days. I know what figure I prefer to receive for the next few months.

Better than nothing, but rearranging deckchairs on he titanic if NAS have decided to ditch everything outside Norway

Very true Meester but 3 months on furlough will at least give everybody some time to collect their thoughts. Being made redundant and losing your income overnight is even more stressful. Especially when at the moment nobody is hiring. In 3 months time the situation MAY be a bit clearer.

Good riddance to NAS
 

I am glad the families of these crews will be kept afloat with the JRS over the coming months but what do people expect working for companies with these dodgy contract arrangements? I appreciate no one could forsee Covid 19 but these men and women working for the likes of Wizz Air or Norweigen deserve very little sympathy. We are all responsible for the decisions we make, and who our employer is has to be among the biggest ones we have control over.

I flew with a great Captain years ago who told me how he had spent a few days in a row moping about his house as a young man after some unfortunate luck. His father called him into the living room and told him to go upstairs and look himself in the mirror and tell himself: 'Everything is my F-ing fault'... He still tells himself this every day, and the guy is a legend.

Its like Ryanair crews complaining they get treated like ****, what do you expect?! We live in a world, and particularly an industry, where nobody is prepared to take responsibility for where they end up.

What a load of bs
And that legend of yours needs to test for depression

Plum, others are allowed to have opinions contrary to your own. Those views may be unpalatable but its hardly a secret as to the disaster that is unfolding. Im sure that there is something about insulting comments in the T&Cs.

And my opinion still stands.

Surely if OSM are owed money from NAS, they are a creditor and the contract between OSM and NAS would not be officially terminated until the funds were paid? Of course it's a tricky position as OSM want to/hope to work with NAS in the future, but isn't this going to be a bit of a brain teaser for the UK Government under the JRS as the "jobs" don't actually exist anymore, unless OSM argue they want to keep "crew on the books" after the 3 months JRS, in which case OSM then are picking the baby up with the bath water. I don't understand these figures either? https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0...TED/financials
5 million assets?

[QUOTE=.the contract arrangements are no better or worse than a lot of other deals.[/QUOTE]

And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.

Whitemonk Returns whilst I take your point to a certain extent, nobody could have predicted this. There are pilots at easyJet and BA who are desperately worrying about their prospects FFS, I’m one of them. The two most secure jobs in aviation. Should I have planned for this and never joined BA or taken out a mortgage? Have some decorum, people are really struggling.

So what is the reality of the Norwegian story here?

Now somebody please tell me if I am wrong.
Norwegian cutting ties with OSM and other Norwegian subsidiaries, OSM and these Norwegian Subsidiaries are independent companies, basically this is NAS way to get rid of XX millions of liabilities and debts.

As far as I understand, this was one of the main reasons Norwegian in Norway went on strike a few years ago, as now Norwegian still have all the aircraft, but severed their ties with these companies who they had an agreement.

Don't forget that these are all subsidiaries of Norwegian, and Norwegian have now shown the world what they were designed for, cut their losses while they can and save the remaining part of the airline in case of such an economic downturn.

We do not need to go very far back in this thread, where I was warning against exactly this issue, and there were people gloating that they had the same job security as anyone else in the company, absolute BS.

NAS knows the government will not provide support for all the subsidiaries around the world, but now a slimmed down NAS, where they main market is Scandinavia / Norway, that's a different story, they will probably get support to preserve the Norwegian Core contracts / jobs.

So OSM now have X amount of pilots, but OSM don't have a single aircraft, and these subsidiaries are all going bankrupt and it will not effect Norwegian one dot, they have just been able to offload 4500 crew in one day, from their payroll with this despicable business model.

Still NAS have all the aircraft, so if they now get government help, and they can get back to business, they will just setup a new agency to hire pilots, pilots who will not be working for an airline, but job agency, without any assets.

Wake up guys, this is a shambles.