So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!

Thank you and very well said. My son is one of the many caught up in this predicament and is now awaiting to hear his fate and his future.

Well the contracts for Denmark, Sweden, Spain and UK might have great TC's, but what good is that, when they can stop them just like they did today, that kind of makes a your statement about the great TC's a mute point.

As for Norwegians overall issues, COVID 19 was the straw that broke the camels back, just like FlyBe, however NAS had massive problems long before the virus hit them. Massive restructure, deferring loan payments, billions in debts, hardly any cash, expanded to fast, NAS have been wounded for a long time. There are threads many years back on NAS problems, this thread was started September 2019, again before COVID 19 occured.

Defend NAS business model, and talk about how great it is, while I am sure there are over 1500 pilots today, who disagree with this sentiment.

Who on earth said NAS had been doing things well before they chose to try and turn thing around? You won't find anyone who will defend the company structure pre-"FOCUS19" as they called it. However, as I said before, things were changing for the better. Far better. It's never to late to turn things around and for that they deserve some credit.

As far as parts of the company going bust. Norwegian has been running out of money for some time, and as for the countries who still demand 70% or so paid salary during these hard times it was the straw that broke the camels back. What else should the company do? Just lay down and die for the sake of "What's right". At least people are now ironically left with a fighting chance until the 4th of May in the remaining countries before the final decisions will be made on NAS's fate. Many, many companies are build on the fact that there are flexibility to close down parts to save the core-business. It's just how business is done in a globalised world. Now I do not agree with all of the previous ways the company was run, but for me, it is impressive to see the change that has been going on for the last 18months or so. I have many friends in Norwegian (I used to work there myself until I had a chance to go home) and I have always been impressed with how much "can do" spirit there was amongst the crew.

And I actually think those 1500 pilots are able to see the big picture in what's going on. This is the biggest crisis on the aviation job-market since.... Well... forever. If you only direct your anger at the company, you have been paying very little attention to what is going on in the world right now. Even the most robust and stable companies are in full-on damage control mode. Nothing about what we see right now is normal, and not a single person on the planet knows were we are in 2-4-6-8 months. How on earth should any company act right now?

People tend to dwell on the past when it comes to Norwegian whilst completely ignoring were it was headed in terms of both the vision and the actual finances for 2020. It was, and still is a company with great potential and very good people. People who deserve more than the "keyboard warrior" comments on this forum as of lately.

Stay safe and Let's hope we all make it through this after all. Same goes for you "truckflyer".

"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.
If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.

Thanks captain hindsight. If you really feel sorry for All the Crew will you just shut up about how it's Norwegian's own fault and that the remaining airline will go under soon and what not?

Whats wrong with this statement? Absolutely nothing.
Again, I feel desperately sorry for the crews but they were on their way out before COVID 19.

Of course no one could predict Covid 19 but those of you painting NAS as some white Knight on the road to recovery are way off. This company has failed because of the unsustainable amount of DEBT it used to compete with its rivals, competitors that would be sitting on much stronger balance sheets right now if it hadn't had to deal with Norweigen flying people around the world AT A LOSS for the last few years. I gather the 737 contract was well paid but I know the 787 one was not and it has been well documented on here, I know two individuals who left NAS who get paid more now to fly a 737 to the canaries than a 787 around the world, significantly more now in fact! If everyone wasn't rushing to get there Instagram photo of them on a shiny new 787 nobody would PAY 30,000 euro to accept that contract (and I know they paid it to you back over time, how nice of them!) It's like the guys in the Wizz Air thread defending the company for not paying day off payments but are happy to deduct you a day's pay for going sick, but the girls are so pretty... Unbelievable. Once the good times come again, and they will, all those airplanes are going to need flying, remember the companies that deserve your hard work.

Well said. It’s important to note that you can be very sympathetic towards the plight of Norwegian employees and wish them all the best, but at the same time be pretty scathing about the business plans and general health of the company. It is an unfortunate truism that many airlines from history ran into trouble during an over-ambitious expansion phase coupled with market uncertainty.

It reminds me of the old saying attributed to head-in-the-clouds management from the .com bust era: “we lose on every sale but we’ll make it up in volume!!”, which fairly describes NAXs modus operandi in the last couple of years.

We are seeing an unprecedented fall in the demand for air travel with no real clear indication of what form/timing an eventual recovery will take. Even the strongest, cash-richest airlines are finding it extremely difficult. There is bound to be fallout/consolidation and unconditional support for failing businesses only increases the burden on other ones. Is there a future for some parts of Norwegian? I hope so but the LH bit of the operation as presented never really made commercial sense to me.

Good points Whitemonk! I cannot see any Government funded packages being available to NAS in UK or Ireland.

Keyboard warriors the lot of you.

theres no point banging in about business models or if it’s ethical to be employed on contracts - everyone knows what they sign and I’m always pragmatic about these things.

I turn up fly, do my best, go home. It’s not a religion, it’s not the reason I breath. It’s a job - if a better one comes I go, if they don’t need me anymore I go.

Even the strongest financial airlines aren’t exactly happy flappy with their employees are they ? Witness the land grab of previously agreed TCs at easy and I wouldn’t want to be way down the seniority at even big airways right now .

be nice for a bit of support and unity - but no, pilots are always self serving ego driven people at best .

No completely correct, some years ago many was forced onto these contracts, that's why Norwegian Core in Norway went on strike for a few weeks.

Madrid, 21 de abril de 2020.



Norwegian Air Shuttle anunció ayer, de manera repentina y sin previo aviso a los representantes de los trabajadores, el cierre de las bases que la aerolínea escandinava tiene en España. Según han informado varios medios de comunicación, los pilotos que trabajan para Norwegian en España podrían ser despedidos, aunque aún no se ha anunciado ningún procedimiento legal al respecto, por lo que se desconoce la situación legal en la que quedan los trabajadores y de qué forma se les compensaría.

El anuncio del cierre de estas bases deja en un absoluto desamparo jurídico a los trabajadores de Norwegian, a quienes aún no se ha notificado la noticia a través de los cauces oficiales, por lo que desconocen en este momento qué derechos les amparan para hacer frente a esta situación. De hecho, Sepla estaba negociando con Norwegian un ERTE por causas objetivas, con el fin de buscar una solución de viabilidad a la empresa.

El anuncio de la matriz de cerrar sus bases en España, al mismo tiempo que aquí se estaba negociando otra solución para los trabajadores en nuestro país, es un síntoma más de la absoluta descoordinación e incluso incompatibilidad de políticas empresariales que en ocasiones existe entre una matriz y sus filiales, y cuyas consecuencias directas las sufren los trabajadores.

“Norwegian ha estado ocultando información desde el principio. Esta situación viene de mucho antes de que se cancelaran los vuelos por el coronavirus. Han estado negociando con nosotros un ERTE a pesar de que sabían desde hace tiempo que iban a cerrar -lamentan desde la Sección Sindical de Norwegian-. Además, tampoco han respetado las formas. Un cierre empresarial conlleva una serie de procedimientos legales en cuanto a notificación y argumentación de la necesidad de la medida. Norwegian no ha cumplido ni uno solo de ellos”.

Sepla se reserva el derecho de demandar a la aerolínea noruega ante cualquier jurisdicción.

In other words, looks like the Spanish Unions will start legal action against NAS. That's not too attractive to potential investors.. Live by the sword etc etc

Spot on, Meester proach. Where years ago the competition was restricted to the commercial departments and crews would actually help each other. It didn’t matter what colour your jet had, if you could help a fellow aviator then that is what you did.

Nowadays the competition is between pilots. Let’s call for push and start, even though we are not 100% ready but at least we get away before xyz. It is pathetic, you never know where life takes you and what may have been your worst enemy at the start of the month could be your colleague at the end of the month.

Same as you, I go to work and do my job. The commercial department can fight over passengers, it has nothing to do with my daily running of the show.

While I understand and agree with your post, lets be honest, times have changed.

Pilots are in competition with eachother. Job security is lower than ever and when applying somewhere, there is always some other pilot willing to do the job for less or even is willing to pay for the job. And even when not applying, this behaviour is hurting other pilots' pay.

Even within companies there are more and more courtcases to gain something at expense of the rest.

Life itself is more selfish and therefore more competitive.

Unfortunately, it affects whether you have a job and what it’s like in the future. Norwegian competing with IAG on North American routes by loss-leading pricing led to the formation of Level. Using larger, cheaper aeroplanes their raison-d'etre was to thwart/kill Norwegian LH and it looks like it was very successful. Hasn’t done much for the T&Cs of the airlines directly involved and it puts pressure on others to follow the downward spiral...

^^^^^
No the problems NAS have had were intially caused more by Boeing and rolls Royce causing massive sub charter and diluting the product badly. No one wants a wamos 330 turning up when they expected the IFE of 787.

As for level ,I never really saw them as competition because they weren’t on many routes we did .....IAG more so, hence the shoehorning of another seat on the back row of the Gatwick 777s....but that’s for the commercial department - we are all pilots and have more in common than petty tribal rivalry

​​​​​​It's a bonding, maybe you need to be clarified on what that means? Either you got the Bank guarantee or paid up front and got back all the money. What's your Problem about that exactly? How can you denounce hundreds and thousands of good pilots who flew or still fly for norwegian by saying they did it for the instagram pics? And don’t even get me started to on the t&c, because they were quite good. But clearly you got no clue. I am actually shocked on how you talk about a lot of people you don't even know.

The Crew who lost their job was not employed by the airline, that is the disgrace in this business model, and what NAS Norwegian pilots was fighting so hard for in their strike few years back.

This makes it easy for the company to cut all ties with the pilots, and they can save millions by screwing their crews.
Any pilot with self respect will call it for what it is, it does not mean I am blaming the crews working for these "shxt" agency companies, they have my greatest sympathy, some here speak about the great TC's provided, and I fully understand this, but what good is it if you can be cut loose this way, it's a rotten system, and I have little sympathy for the way the company has been operated and how they have let down the people working for them.

Of course, no one can defend atypical employment practices but you have to reason a little and try to understand why they have emerged.

There are probably more airlines in Europe that now operate an atypical employment structure than not. And with the recycling of the aviation industry that's about to take place, I can see every single new player doing the same. Primera, Norwegian and SAIL all have had the same agency based employment structures. SmartLynx, Avion, Small Planet all have been hiring and paying offshore through agencies for years. What pattern do you see here? None of the above are British companies but still want/wanted to do business out of here. Agency based employees are an easy, risk-free option for them. The alternative is for them to open their own HR departments in each of the countries they operate in (impractical). To open a local HR department, you need to launch a local subsidiary company (SmartLynx UK, Smarlynx France, Smartlynx Germany). In the case of some of these airlines they would need to open 20! What difference does it make though? The terms will still be ****.

The real question is this (and it probably applies to most Western European countries)...

When was the last time a UK registered, wholly based and HQd company launched an airline in the UK? You'd have to go back a long time if I'm not mistaken! No business person with a brain would spend their fortune launching an airline out of a Western European country. Big Europe has made it impossible for Western European airlines to compete with The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Polish. Even The Vikings can undercut us thanks to their pent up billions and easy finance on tap. So much demand out of the UK over the last decade yet not a single sizable and meaningful 100% UK based operator has emerged to plug that gap, it's always a foreign player. This is the real issue. Big Europe and the undercutting of our businesses and livelihoods.

The lack of empathy towards Norwegian stems from the fact companies like them have driven down pay and T&Cs in the aviation sector. They cut financial corners meaning traditional airlines who are unable to do the same, turn to their employees for concessions in order to compete.
I do understand for those desperate to start in the industry that this type of company offered an opportunity, but it was at the expense of others.

The relationship between NAS and OSM was no different than Ryanair and Brookfield , apart from the zero hours nonsense and paying for training, uniforms LPC etc etc, but that's history and old hat now. What was different was the relationship between the Pilots and the Company, NAS appeared all warm and cuddly at sim and induction sessions etc but were not as transparent as O'Leary, at least you knew where you stood with the guy. Up to now I have no real complaints about the NAS business practices, however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that they are consolidating in their own borders and slicing off the limbs without a blink. OSM don't have a clue what the position is, all this nonsense about retaining pilots waiting for the turn round is frankly bull.. its like a garage paying mechanics with no customers, will never happen. IF, and its a big IF OSM can get UK Government JRS support then we can get the £2500 until June .. note.. NOT like Jet2 or Easy, BA, Virgin a "reduced topped up package" speaks volumes. What about the remaining "Bond" .. No idea, No Chance, No Hope. If NAS want to operate in the "grey areas" that's fine, but at least have a safety net for the staff when it goes wrong.. Loyalty works both ways. At the end of these times we still need healthy competition in the market and sustainable players, not opportunist chancers. BA has a big enough war chest to take all the capacity and crews if it so chooses, of course you will not get LHS at BA, but sitting at home crying in the beer isn't the answer either. BALPA seem to be just hot air at the time they are most needed..

Exactly. I was invited once for their 787 and the pay for FO was 60.000 euro gross and TQ was 40.000. Thanks but no thanks. I must say this was in 2014 so it might have changed during the last few years but you know where companies will save money when there is no shortage of pilots.

Nevertheless, I am not happy to see them closing up. However this is almost inevitable. I wish everyone involved a somehow speedy recovery of the aviation business in general. Good luck

It's 100% legal for airlines and corporations to do this. However it's also 100% legal to be denied any kind of taxpayer assistance when in situations like this.

Now the airline becomes a victim of its own poor decisions.

(NB: I'm criticizing the management, not the crews or frontline staff who are the unfortunate victims here)

I'm starting to get real curious now. What do people think they know regarding the T&C's of Norwegian? I'm thinking hard figures: Pay, Pension, rights, Roster, vacation.... Everything.

I can only speak for myself, but before I left Norwegian (LGW) I had 122500 Pounds Gross in the left seat excluding everything else like pension, food, Uniform, etc. but including some dayoff payments. Is that peanuts? I don't know... I had about 2 years in the left seat and less than 10 years in commercial aviation. I was given the days off I wanted 95% of the time and I was entitled to at least 2 weeks VAC during the peak summer period with another 2 weeks in the winter. We had a lot of nightstops, but I was commuting, so not a problem for me. Training was great and the overall atmosphere was very good in my opinion. Was there room for change? You bet! But from what I could see BALPA had a good relationship with OSM/Norwegian and we always had improvements in the horizon. From what I can remember they mostly fought for better check-in times etc. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is fighting for these days. I flew around 800Hrs the year I left...
People in the company will know that T&C's in scandiland were on better contracts and as far as Spain goes it is/was very similar to the UK.... But with much lower living costs. And don't get me started about Finland and FCO before It closed!

In many ways I feel sorry that I had to leave, but the commuting life was not for me...

I'm very surprised about the uneducated "pocket economics" comments we have seen not only here, but also on the Virgin thread.

Everyone, including the likes of BA are apparently owned by someone playing dirty and each and every airline has skeletons in their closet. Does that need a change? Yes, off course it does! But that needs to happen via regulations and a change in practices - Not because of an industry-wide nuclear bomb deleting everything in it's path! We see so much BS uttered from people who know very little about the actual operational details and the economic structure of many of the companies mentioned! We have all met the type on the line! The typical "know it all" skipper who will spend hours explaining why the whole industry went south and how it was all much better in the old days! Ok, ok - we get it! ...Man....Get a life! I see some well-hidden Brexit stuff thrown in on a few posts here as well - Nice touch!

I love the typical: "Well, all my sympathy for the crews involved" comments who will then 5 sentences later be followed by "they knew what they got themselves into from the beginning - I have zero sympathy for NAS etc." type remarks. It's like saying "I'm sorry that you are alle idiots". People have a life that needs to add up in the real world. We can't all pick and choose where we want to work, and who to work for! And not everyone wants to be in a Legacy carrier like SAS, BA or any other for that matter!

How about some unity and support for once? This is bound to get a lot worse over time apparently and not even the most higly-skilled pilot with seniority going as far back as the wright brothers can consider themselves safe right now!

I feel like we are going in circles here without learning anything new, so I'm out. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us! Especially in Europe at the moment. Anyone left here after this will be up against a sector who has already been bailed out across the pond....

Some very good points, well made!

£122500 GROSS to fly (I'm guessing) a 787 out of LGW 800 hrs a year in the LHS? Yes this is peanuts, embarrassing actually, worse than I thought.
​​​
Also those European Airlines you are suddenly so worried about are going to have a much easier time competing with their American counterparts without crap companies like Norweigen undercutting them.

its peanuts for a Captain, yes. You say it also includes day off payments AND excludes uniform&food? Do you have to pay for your uniform ??
after tax that’s less than 6k a month. Whilst not on the poverty line granted, it’s well below benchmark for a Captain. Particularly so if you
Were on the 787

For quick info. Flew less than 700hrs/year in previous years, 737, Everything paid for by the company and the salary goes up every year. Bases in scandinavia is well above that. From what I can gather, it's quite ok for a 2nd year Captain in the EU in SH. I know the US is very different...
3Greens - Who do you work for since it's peanuts?

Hi SSDK you make some good, valid points.

I will however say once again that low cost long haul doesn’t work and Norwegian was on its way out before Covid 19.

Again, I feel terrible for the pilots and cabin crew but did they really expect it to continue? Flying LGW to OAK cheaper than a staff travel ticket with another airline just doesn’t make commercial sense.

Furthemore, flying BKK cabin crew to Europe as passengers then have them operate to the US was a flagrant flouting of the rules. Were you also commuting using the amazing (and it seriously is amazing) text ticketing? Just put your flight details into the phone with your staff number and you get your booking reference and no tax to be paid. Great for commuting.

So, because of the amount of tax dodging carried out by Norwegian I’m not surprised if governments say no to their requests for a bail out.

Stop embarassing yourself by talking about things you have no clue about.
I was quite happy with my salary and contract in general. Flying around 500h per year on 787. Flew less than many other legacy Airlines for not much less money. Got my d/O off request in almost every month exactly as requested and when there was an issue the company tried everything to solve it. Got more days off and vacation days than the American counter parts. And guess what, for some it's not just about the money but the lifestyle as well (that is if you have a life actually). Commuting Was possible, so you could live where you wanted. Obviously there were things that were not perfect but nothing out of the ordinary. So who are you to judge that it's a crap Company?
Please do me a favor and don't Spam the thread again with your half knowledge

I know very little about the LH part of the company to be honest. I just never found a job where you never handfly or land the damn thing more than a few times a month interesting, so you would have to ask someone else...

Can we get som actual number on how much tax you think Norwegian is dodging? I mean, REAL numbers so that we can actually use your statement as a conversation with facts? Not trying to be "smart". I'm actually asking. Besides, I actually think Norwegian is paying for the pax tax for people commuting via the text. I think most companies would expense that anyway...

As I have said before, I am not trying to justify how Norwegian is doing business. It's funny how the conversation is pivoted towards that over and over again. I'm just trying to make the case that as an employee of Norwegian you will most likely have a very statisfying life with ok pay and lifestyle. I think a company that can provide that is worth preserving. Furthermore, as I have said before, Norwegian is making changes for the good as of lately. Everyone is Unionised, AOC's were coming back to Sweden and they were driving towards scandinavian core values again.

As for myself. I am now working for what people would call a "Legacy carrier". Back as an FO in my home country and with a loooooong seniority list ahead of me for the left seat. It's not bad, but I do miss being in charge and earning the extra money!

Considering the current economic disaster unfolding , I think anyone having a job let alone the figures your talking about would be considered a godsend.
Norwegian and VS Capt+f/o's I suspect would gladly forgo their current salary levels just to be able to continue their much beloved aviation careers.
If these companies are shrunk to half their size and pay cuts ensue to help save them , how many would jump at the chance to be the lucky few ?
If these two were to be saved but with the requirement of new terms and conditions , would that be acceptable?

So, in simple terms - actually so I can understand it - If you work for Norwegian, you’re really employed by OSM? Therefore, NAS can dump you at any time without any responsibility or obligation.

BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isn’t anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. It’s embarrassingly poor.

Just like your ability to read comments properly as it seems.

I have no idea how much tax they were dodging but you have confirmed that you paid no tax when you commuted. Is that correct?
Other airline’s commuters still have to pay the tax so in my view that’s a tax dodge.

Read my comment again Luke 258...

Also. I have 3 good friends flying 777 in BA on their 2nd and 3rd year. We always talk salary (A pilots favorite topic as always) and I never heard them even come close to more than 100 grand per year. I guess you are special or maybe a FO for 10+ years? Older contract? Dunno.... If true- then hey! I'm happy for you!

Well I guess you should check again who your reply should adress SSDK.

Ah yes, the perils of an iPhone in bright light. My apologies.
For full disclusire, BA 777 FO. 17 years service and there’s no way that should be the same as a 787 Captain of 2/3 years.
I really hope there is some way to save your company as I don’t wish to see anyone out of work at all, but to justify those awful salaries for Captains at Norwegian is well, embarsssing.