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-   -   Ryanair UK pilots vote for strike (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/624368-ryanair-uk-pilots-vote-strike.html)

Boeing 7E7 15th Aug 2019 15:04


Originally Posted by back to Boeing (Post 10545598)
People will be getting bored of this but I’ll say it one last time and leave the thread to get back to the actual title.

I was sat sat next to people who were about to be unfairly dismissed. And I have been a witness in employment tribunals.

If you are sacked for taking part in a correctly organised trade union dispute (whether that is strike or action short of strike) then that is unfair dismissal.

However your recourse is exactly the same whether you are sacked for striking or you are sacked for any other unfair reason. Just because the strike is legal doesn’t mean you can’t be unlawfully dismissed.

Your former employer will just suck up the “fine” and move on.

It really isn’t hard to understand. Anyone can be sacked. It’s up to an employment tribunal to sort out the details much much later.

Except you have ZERO evidence to support your assertion that people have been or will be sacked for taking part in industrial action. Other than ‘employers can be nasty’, which is irrelevant to this thread.

back to Boeing 15th Aug 2019 16:06

Ryanair specifically but not in the UK. A very good friend of mine was wrapped up in that one. Not “officially” sacked for industrial action but a nice way around it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news...based-13753804

UK but not aviation. And this isn’t even looking through employment tribunal records. This is just ones that made the press. Stop being so naive.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/cl...p-pay-protest/



Boeing 7E7 16th Aug 2019 11:54


Originally Posted by back to Boeing (Post 10545991)
Ryanair specifically but not in the UK. A very good friend of mine was wrapped up in that one. Not “officially” sacked for industrial action but a nice way around it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news...based-13753804

UK but not aviation. And this isn’t even looking through employment tribunal records. This is just ones that made the press. Stop being so naive.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/cl...p-pay-protest/



Ok. I’ll call the strike off. Neither will I stand up to injustice because you have convinced me that it might be scary to do so.
Signing off bravely,
Boeing 7E7

back to Boeing 16th Aug 2019 13:47

I didn't say don't go on strike. I was pointing out that the following 2 dogmatic statements were both wrong. Employees have been unlawfully dismissed by airlines in the UK, striking workers have been unlawfully dismissed in the UK and the costs are very much capped.


Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7 (Post 10543664)
So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company.



calypso 16th Aug 2019 14:18

Of course any well run strike will not be called off before anyone dismissed is reinstated. This is not a new battle, the tactics and counter tactics are well know and understood by both the employer and the union. If it was that easy industrial action would not be the very powerful tool that it is.

Airbanda 17th Aug 2019 09:38

Dismissal for taking part in properly organised strike action, excepting in long term action, is automatically unfair:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wo...issal-is-fair/

The employer though does not commit a criminal offence even if they knowingly dismiss for reasons that are automatically unfair. The dismissed employee's remedy is to make a claim to an Employment Tribunal. As has already been pointed out there is a maximum award the tribunal can make. Going to a Tribunal isn't an easy option, the form filling and procedure can be onerous, more so if the respondent employer and their lawyers choose to make it so. There's also a strict time limit. Then there's a day in court with a Judge etc to be faced. Furthermore there were, until the Supreme Court ruled them unlawful, extensive and costly fees.

The effect is that the 'go to law' option is anything but a level playing field. The claimant is prone to being picked off with a settlement (usually with confidentiality clauses) to save the Employer the embarrassment of an actual judgement.

As has been pointed out already even if the Tribunal makes a full award that''s chicken feed for the employer and probably a 'price worth paying' to pick of the ring leaders of even lawful industrial action.

It's arguable that Trade Unionism and Industrial Action in UK got out of hand in sixties/seventies. Legislation passed in the Thatcher era swung the balance too far the other way and succeeding governments, even those that were ostensibly Labour, had no appetite for a return to fairness and equality of arms.

Startledgrapefruit 21st Aug 2019 16:36

Ryanair loses court battle to block UK pilot strikes
 
I take it the judge was flying with them for the bank holiday weekend

beamender99 21st Aug 2019 17:33

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49421426

Ryanair loses court battle to block UK pilot strikes


hunnywagon 21st Aug 2019 19:25

Well done BALPA.

Guys and Gals piloting for Ryanair in the UK I wish you well in standing up to a bully; there is no other way. This is now the tough bit for you..... Having worked in the industry for over 30 years there has been a race to the bottom and it’s time to reverse the trend. Keep strong; I’m sure you know that every single airline pilot who has an inkling of how you are managed would support your cause.

Liffy 1M 21st Aug 2019 20:37


Originally Posted by Startledgrapefruit (Post 10550874)
I take it the judge was flying with them for the bank holiday weekend

The next Bank Holiday in Ireland is at Hallowe'en.

foxmoth 22nd Aug 2019 06:27

I am surprised there is so little comment on this. A bit like the TCX strike Ryanair are saying how they will be operating all their flights, this is actually what you want - you don't really want to inconvenience your passengers, what you do want is to inconvenience the Company and this is exactly what is happening - operating these flights will be complicated and costing as these pilots are coming from Europe costing in overtime, positioning and Hotac.

silverstrata 22nd Aug 2019 06:54

Actual terms and conditions
 
The Daily Mail is reporting that Ryan pilots get £175k per annum, and are demanding £375k per annum.

Can someone post here (and on the D.M.) the actual salaries, and the demands being made, because there is a huge amount of company disinformation out there. The company is making all pilots look greedy, and someone needs to counter this with real facts - because it looks bad for all of us.

Thanks.
Silver

foxmoth 22nd Aug 2019 07:04

£175k would probably make them the best paid pilots in the world and I very much doubt that Ryanair pay has moved on that much!

from the Express

According to salary tracking website PayScale, the salary of a commercial pilot fly a jet at the company varies from £40,000 to £105,000 per year.
that sounds much more likely and if the top is for a trainer then still pretty poor!

SliabhLuachra 22nd Aug 2019 07:23


Originally Posted by foxmoth (Post 10551332)
£175k would probably make them the best paid pilots in the world and I very much doubt that Ryanair pay has moved on that much!

from the Express

that sounds much more likely and if the top is for a trainer then still pretty poor!

new cadets start on 21K basic salary.

First Officers will see around 39K maximum.

Captains basic salary is about 88/90K and increases incrementally to a max of 142K at the very top for a line captain.

Ryanairpilot 22nd Aug 2019 07:46

"Captains basic salary is about 88/90K and increases incrementally to a max of 142K at the very top for a line captain."

That might be euros. For the UK top line captain is approx £127k total including allowances. Add about 13k for line trainer and around 17k ( I think) for TRE. Pension 8k. Leave system is a month off at company's discretion (usually over winter) plus 10 adhoc days. That's about it.

foxmoth 22nd Aug 2019 07:52

And I suspect you are working your socks off for that!

Runcorn Bridge 22nd Aug 2019 08:35

Is there actually anyone on the picket line today? Not a single UK cancellation. Have the management pulled a blinder and managed to crew all the flights even with Ryanair BALPA pilots on strike, or have most bottled it and crossed the picket line to go to work? I sincerely hope not. This a massive chance to actually change things for the better.

foxmoth 22nd Aug 2019 09:01


Originally Posted by Runcorn Bridge (Post 10551416)
Is there actually anyone on the picket line today? Not a single UK cancellation. Have the management pulled a blinder and managed to crew all the flights even with Ryanair BALPA pilots on strike, or have most bottled it and crossed the picket line to go to work? I sincerely hope not. This a massive chance to actually change things for the better.

it does not sound like you read my earlier post - this is what happened with TCX and is ideal, you don’t really want to upset your customers that pay your wages you want to inconvenience the company, Ryanair will be having to work hard and pay out for overtime/positioning/hotac - perfect!

Runcorn Bridge 22nd Aug 2019 09:11

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too. If the flights can be covered then MOL will be happy for them to keep striking for the long term. Yes it’s inconvenient for the company, but will be more inconvenient for the pilots who wont be getting paid on strike days. With families to support and bills to pay some wont be happy striking long term. It’s a massive game of who blinks first. So far MOL is winning.

foxmoth 22nd Aug 2019 10:10

I suspect it will take about 3 strike days before Ryanair realise how much it is costing them, its not just the inconvenience but the cost - and if they are using pilots from their other bases how sustainable is that? It then becomes hard to operate the bases these guys should be working from.
In addition it was on morning TV how customers have been booking elsewhere because they are wary of flights not going so that is also going to hurt MOL.
Hold out guys, you WILL get there if you do!


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