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-   -   Ryanair pilot strike (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610789-ryanair-pilot-strike.html)

bringbackthe80s 27th Jul 2018 14:52

The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

adolf hucker 27th Jul 2018 15:40


Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s (Post 10207762)
The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

Inertia, fear of change, lack of self-respect - take your pick.

adolf hucker 27th Jul 2018 22:11

Really? You think pilots tolerating being treated as lackeys and publicly berated by their CEO demonstrates a high level of self-respect? And those hanging on hoping for better times is precisely why Ryanair is able to continue. It’s the pilots who have the gumption to move on who created the cancellations last year which has allowed unionisation to get a toe hold.

I hope things do get better for those remaining in Ryanair but there wouldn’t have been a hope without the more ambitious ones leaving. I spent every day in Ryanair making myself more employable so that I could get away from such a toxic, soul-destroying and generally joyless organisation.

bringbackthe80s 28th Jul 2018 09:40

I don't agree. There is a time when enough is enough and an experiencd professional should not accept certain things. And frankly what surprises me is people are still hoping for a change. Incredible

silverstrata 29th Jul 2018 18:28


Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s (Post 10207762)
The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done....

(Because working for Ryan is a real gamble.......)

ST

gearlever 30th Jul 2018 10:23

100 pilot jobs in Dublin threatened

gearlever 30th Jul 2018 13:50

Ryanair Ballot completed – Pilots in favor for industrial action

JPJP 31st Jul 2018 19:09

A great quote from the Eurocockpit article regarding Ryanair -

“This decision risks entering aviation history as a sad episode of human resources hara-kiri.”

Sonikt 31st Jul 2018 19:57


Originally Posted by JPJP (Post 10211271)
A great quote from the Eurocockpit article regarding Ryanair -

“This decision risks entering aviation history as a sad episode of human resources hara-kiri.”

It's not at all surprising to see Ryanair management lashing out with threats of redundancies etc. in fact such obvious bluster is a clear sign of desperation.

MOL and his minions have spent many, many years constantly getting their own way, total domination through a merry game of divide and rule. Consequently they have no clue whatsoever how to negotiate from the position of weakness they now find themselves in.

Personally I think this dispute has already reached a critical mass - the workforce are clearly no longer afraid and further attempts to intimidate will simply strengthen resolve and unity

bigdaviet 1st Aug 2018 08:40

I presume the “20% cuts” are just bluster and in fact are the normal cuts you would expect in winter. But if they really do scale back significantly due to strike action it just paved the wAy for the “rivals circling” to poach more FR pilots and expand their own operations.

172_driver 1st Aug 2018 09:31

Hot off the press;

Ryanair pilots based in Sweden have announced strike action on the 10th of August.
Not in the news stream yet, announced by the union.

waffler 1st Aug 2018 11:49

Belgian Ryanair pilots also going on strike.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018...82379-ryanair/

Finn47 1st Aug 2018 13:33

Ryanair pilots strike
 

Originally Posted by 172_driver (Post 10211801)
Hot off the press;

Ryanair pilots based in Sweden have announced strike action on the 10th of August.
Not in the news stream yet, announced by the union.

Reuters has an article out on it: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ry...-idUKKBN1KM4A1

Sonikt 1st Aug 2018 19:33


Originally Posted by bigdaviet (Post 10211740)
I presume the “20% cuts” are just bluster and in fact are the normal cuts you would expect in winter. But if they really do scale back significantly due to strike action it just paved the wAy for the “rivals circling” to poach more FR pilots and expand their own operations.



Exactly

Let's also not forget that a very fundamental aspect of the Lo-Co model is maximizing utilization of capital assets i.e. keeping planes in the air as much as possible.

A plane sat on the ground earns nothing in fares and ancillary revenue (in flight sales) but still has depreciation/finance costs, plus storage and scheduled maintenance costs. Grounding planes in winter can make financial sense, but only if the same assets are fully utilized during the busier summer months.

So it doesn't matter if FR decide to relocate planes to Timbuktu - if they don't have enough crews to keep them in the air at the same or better level of utilization this will not only diminish revenues, but also increase the cost base relative to the remaining revenue. Ryanair's profitability is fragile, precisely because it is built on maximised efficiency; any loss of efficiency has a bigger impact compared to other airlines.

New bases and routes take some time to build traffic and load factor etc (this by FR own admission) so there can be no business sense at all in relocating assets from a mature market with close to maximum utilization (Ireland) into the unknown (Poland). It can therefore only be seen as bluster or an act of desperation.

BluSdUp 2nd Aug 2018 10:45

Stemningsraport!
 
Or a Mood-report, could not find a good English word!
YpppeeeeeKaaYehhh Mother ,,,,,,,,er! Bruse Willis.

Or maybe :
" You fell lucky , Punk"

RYR has made it to the Big League.
They can not use the Court system as a threat any more. THEY actually have to behave according to old strict rules for Industrial Action.
It looks like they need to google that concept.
When at it , they could also google : supply and demand!

Battle of Britain also comes to mind:
Churchill:
" This is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end.
But it is the end of the beginning"

History is being made Girls and Boys.
What are YOU going to tell you grand children!?

Point of no return is WAY past!

Rant over.
Were did that Zigar go,,,,??

Regards
Cpt B

wiggy 2nd Aug 2018 12:22


Originally Posted by BluSdUp (Post 10212621)
Battle of Britain also comes to mind:
Churchill:
" This is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end.
But it is the end of the beginning"

Thread drift/point of order: wrong battle...
Now back to the thread

Sonikt 3rd Aug 2018 13:14

ryanairs uk pilots said to make move toward possible strike

The supreme irony today, is that Ryanair management seem to have maneuvered themselves into the worst possible negotiating position, purely through their own arrogance

They were offered a company wide, single in house committee to negotiate with - the EERC - but they refused preferring to continue with their divide and rule

So now they are forced to negotiate individualy with multiple unions across the various countries, while staff from various countries are quite obviously now working together, completely outside the control or visibility of Ryanair

I guess they can always fall back on blaming Air Lingus :rolleyes:

Dan Winterland 4th Aug 2018 03:51


I presume the “20% cuts” are just bluster and in fact are the normal cuts you would expect in winter. But if they really do scale back significantly due to strike action it just paved the wAy for the “rivals circling” to poach more FR pilots and expand their own operations.
Both easyJet and Norwegian have advertised recruitment road-shows in Dublin. I wonder who they are targeting? Good luck with manning next year's summer flight Michael.

BluSdUp 4th Aug 2018 08:54

Dan
I am wondering about that one!
I recon the latest deft moves by Dublin has lost them some 10 to 15% of the present staff if not more by next spring.
On top of the ones that was on the way out anyway.
There is a limit to folks loyalty or stupidity as some like to call it here.
The frustration on line is now at a level that are approaching critical proportions.

So what is the Boss up to?
The behavior is irrational at best and possible destructive with regards to summer 2019 staffing.
UNLESS he intends to pull a big stunt around Brexit and crush the Union and ground a heap of aircraft in the process!
I do not know, but if he plans to have all 500 aircraft flying next April he needs to change his ways.
Regards
Cpt B

PilotRoger 7th Aug 2018 12:02

One more strike:
VC erhöht den Druck auf Ryanair - Austrian Aviation Net

ExDubai 8th Aug 2018 09:34

Just over the news: VC announced that they will join the strike on Friday in Germany

the_stranger 8th Aug 2018 20:50

Ryanair tries to prevent a strike in the Netherlands by going to court, while the Dutch pilots still hadn't decide to strike or not.

Their answer, strike on friday...

https://www.vnv.nl/news/vrijdag-10-a...r-in-nederland

SMT Member 9th Aug 2018 14:39

Well done the Dutch; bullying is best answered with a superior show of strength and unity.

Dan_Brown 9th Aug 2018 14:54

Like a lot of employers these days, MOL is learning,albeit slowly, these facts.

= Treat your employees like sh*t, they will turn on you.

= The employees are a companys greatest asset.

Pilots aren't known to stick together, however at the moment there must be huge dissatisfaction within the ranks to get this type of collective response. He didn't take his chances to negotiate earlier on, now he is going to pay.. Serves him right.

SanHor 9th Aug 2018 17:45

Strike approved by the judge in the Netherlands.

see attached link (Dutch only)

https://www.nu.nl/economie/5405948/r...t-vrijdag.html

In short strike approved, next time the Dutch union needs to announce the strike 72 hours in advance.

Sonikt 9th Aug 2018 17:57


Originally Posted by Dan_Brown (Post 10219277)
Pilots aren't known to stick together, however at the moment there must be huge dissatisfaction within the ranks to get this type of collective response. He didn't take his chances to negotiate earlier on, now he is going to pay.. Serves him right.

​​​​​​I see some observers in the press and financial markets still feel that MOL will somehow regain the initiative, at which point he will hit back hard

This is total BS

There is a global structural shortage of aircrew, which will only continue to get worse as older pilots retire, and other opportunities for the rest continue to grow.

Boeing have predicted this situation for well over 10 years and there have already been failures of regional airlines in the USA due to shortage of crew. In this case ultimately crew are fine because new jobs are created as competitors move in to fill the void - just look what happened at MON and AB

The simple choice for Ryanair is to either addapt to the changing labor situation, or otherwise find out the hard way that the previous business model is no longer sustainable in the current market.


Rated De 9th Aug 2018 20:15


The simple choice for Ryanair is to either addapt to the changing labor situation, or otherwise find out the hard way that the previous business model is no longer sustainable in the current market.
The entire sinew of Ryanair is predicated on unlimited supply of labour. The process or recruitment, management and disposal of staff, has at its genesis an 'assumption' that what leaves is simply replaced. (and cheaply) With minimal sunk costs in the labour unit itself (think pilot training, pensions and even uniforms) the loss for the company was minimised. If one considers the EU itself, there are nations here where the demographics helped them sustain this practice.

The fundamental flaw in Ryanair's thinking is that:
  • Pilots own their log book hours
  • Pilots own their endorsements
  • Aviation is globalised.
Given that Operating Revenue is a result of operation, pilots or rather lack of it impact the business. Thugs like O'Leary are being progressively dragged kicking and screaming to the new paradigm: Pilots are essential.

Over in the USA is a highly unionised, well paid airline, who also operates in the Low Fare sector. Their CEO and company sinew is different.
"A company is stronger if bounded by love than fear-Herb Kelleher"

Ryan air will need to change to meet the new paradigm. If they don't they will realise the truism that it is hard to operate an airline without operating revenue.

Little Napoloen (Alan Joyce) in the antipodes, famously remarked cicra 2004 at a Sydney hotel press conference speaking of the Jetstar pilot model: "We will work them hard for 5 to 7 years and then replace them"

Many airlines have tried to replicate the Southwest structure, however cherry picking bits of it, whilst maintaining the adversarial model has yielded very little.
You cannot fake sincerity, but the worse it gets for industrial bullies like Mr O'Leary and eventually 'downunder' too (Alan Joyce) they will try!

BluSdUp 9th Aug 2018 20:48

412 flights cancelled tomorrow!

Rated De 9th Aug 2018 21:04


Originally Posted by BluSdUp (Post 10219533)
412 flights cancelled tomorrow!

412 times zero= zero.

Wonder how long it takes to permeate to the board?
  • Does the IAA require RPT schedules to be maintained as per AOC requirements? Below what threshold are RYR required to explain?
  • Do airport operators have a contractual remedy for their loss of revenue? That is if airlines don't use the gate, pay landing fees etc the 'business model' of airports will implode..funny that.

Pass the popcorn, the industry needs a purge like this!

Sonikt 9th Aug 2018 23:26


Originally Posted by Rated De (Post 10219540)
412 times zero= zero

EU 261 compensation = 250 EUR per passenger!

Given about 75k passengers impacted I make that just shy of 19m EUR potential exposure, just for tomorrows strikes. That's a dead loss, in addition to costs of refunds or rebooking.

Of course FR are trying to weasel out of it, but the media and various regulators are already on to it and are vigerously encouraging people to claim. I believe the Spanish regulator even had people handing out claim forms at the airport.

The longer this dispute goes on, the more publicity EU261 will recieve, so awareness will spread of the right to claim, and how to do this sucsefully. Once this cat is out the bag its not going back, having a permanent ongoing impact on FR costs and losses, due to increased levels of claims for regular delays and cancellations besides strikes.

​So the idea that FR can 'ride out' prolonged mass strikes is preposterous.

Avoiding EU 261 requires 2 weeks notice of cancellation and most EU countries only require a few days notice or less for strikes. Think about that.

BurDubaiBob 10th Aug 2018 04:54

BBC News: Ryanair strike: One in six flights cancelled in pilot walkout


JPJP 10th Aug 2018 04:55

‘And the Beat Goes On’

From The Irish Times -

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ment-1.3590930

Well Used 10th Aug 2018 05:37

Good luck and well done to those making a stand, personally I think other airlines are in similar situations with overall staffing issues. Where I currently operate the training staff have been getting it hard for years and there are strengthening undertones in those ranks that are now migrating outwards to line crews and management.

Why? It’s the same as Ryanair, incredibly poor middle management unable to voice concerns to high profile directors who are interested in nothing more than headline profits. Pair this with inept crewing practices, poor rostering and the perfect storm brews.

Well done the boys and girls of Ryanair, you are the first but not the last.

Boeing 7E7 10th Aug 2018 08:45

Again, I add my support to the pilots in Ryanair that are finally doing some to stop the rapacious tactics Ryanair has used for so long. How noticeable it is too that UK pilots are not part of this strike. It says nothing about the depth of feeling and commitment to change by the pilots and everything about the law in the UK that makes strike action by employees so difficult, thanks to changes made in 1980s by the government of the time. I hope that BALPA and UK pilots can work through the legal mine field and strike too, to change things for the better.

Timmy Tomkins 10th Aug 2018 09:20


Originally Posted by Rated De (Post 10219509)
The entire sinew of Ryanair is predicated on unlimited supply of labour. The process or recruitment, management and disposal of staff, has at its genesis an 'assumption' that what leaves is simply replaced. (and cheaply) With minimal sunk costs in the labour unit itself (think pilot training, pensions and even uniforms) the loss for the company was minimised. If one considers the EU itself, there are nations here where the demographics helped them sustain this practice.

The fundamental flaw in Ryanair's thinking is that:
  • Pilots own their log book hours
  • Pilots own their endorsements
  • Aviation is globalised.
Given that Operating Revenue is a result of operation, pilots or rather lack of it impact the business. Thugs like O'Leary are being progressively dragged kicking and screaming to the new paradigm: Pilots are essential.

Over in the USA is a highly unionised, well paid airline, who also operates in the Low Fare sector. Their CEO and company sinew is different.
"A company is stronger if bounded by love than fear-Herb Kelleher"

Ryan air will need to change to meet the new paradigm. If they don't they will realise the truism that it is hard to operate an airline without operating revenue.

Little Napoloen (Alan Joyce) in the antipodes, famously remarked cicra 2004 at a Sydney hotel press conference speaking of the Jetstar pilot model: "We will work them hard for 5 to 7 years and then replace them"

Many airlines have tried to replicate the Southwest structure, however cherry picking bits of it, whilst maintaining the adversarial model has yielded very little.
You cannot fake sincerity, but the worse it gets for industrial bullies like Mr O'Leary and eventually 'downunder' too (Alan Joyce) they will try!

Many years ago I was fortunate enough to be at a presentation by the Southwest pilot's union and tried hard to get some of the practices that were normal in that company introduced into my UK airline; unsurprisingly without success. Herb Kelleher is/was a leader and that is the difference. O'Leary and others visited SW, plundered the low cost model but left out all the good ideas that made the company special and good to work for. At that time, SW had the lowest fares and highest pay in the US and with enviable work and roster practices. Kelleher's apparent generosity was based on the simple principle that the number 1 priority was to maintain the schedule, no matter if it cost more to do that.
I still remember the look of fear in the manager's eyes when we proposed some of these measures. It was too difficult, too difficult to justify to those above them and they ran for the hills, with all the problems still intact. O'Leary's is no different.

4runner 10th Aug 2018 10:14

Hey Guys/Girls. As an aviator and someone with global flying and work experience, perhaps I can make a presumptuous suggestion or propose an idea. Why doesn’t a US pilot union get involved in European labor issues? I’ve worked overseas without a union, in the US without a union and in the US with ALPA and Teamsters. I can say, with very few exceptions and through experience that having a union to back you up and represent our interests is many legs up on being caught “high and dry”. Has anyone proposed even speaking to a pilots union that could Represent European pilots as a WHOLE, instead of being divided, conquered and screwed by management? As long as no one from Thpain is involved...

italian stallion 10th Aug 2018 10:25

Oh I love it... just my personal vendetta against RYR...what goes around comes around ����

JW411 10th Aug 2018 10:37

The difficulty is that whatever happens, MOL is going to walk away with more money than you or I could ever imagine.

Alpine Flyer 10th Aug 2018 12:18


Originally Posted by 4runner (Post 10219944)
Hey Guys/Girls. As an aviator and someone with global flying and work experience, perhaps I can make a presumptuous suggestion or propose an idea. Why doesn’t a US pilot union get involved in European labor issues? I’ve worked overseas without a union, in the US without a union and in the US with ALPA and Teamsters. I can say, with very few exceptions and through experience that having a union to back you up and represent our interests is many legs up on being caught “high and dry”. Has anyone proposed even speaking to a pilots union that could Represent European pilots as a WHOLE, instead of being divided, conquered and screwed by management? As long as no one from Thpain is involved...

There's a regular sharing of knowledge across the Atlantic (and across the rest of the globe) regarding industrial issues and industrial action via IFALPA, where ALPA Intl. and the European Pilot Associations - joined themselves within ECA meet regularly. The current developments at Ryanair AFAIK are based on a multinational multi-union working group where pilot unions of countries with Ryanair bases join forces and act in a synchronized way. (Which replaced previous attempts to form a single association within Ryanair.)

As noted above it is indeed interesting that MOL rejected a single negotiating committee and now has to deal with 10 variations of something he doesn't seem to understand. Good luck and stamina to all pilots involved (and to cabin crews as well!). We should all petition our pilot reps to put enough resources in this fight (even if the share of Ryanair pilot members is still small) as a change in work practices at Ryanair will undoubtedly benefit all European pilots.

Sonikt 10th Aug 2018 13:36


Originally Posted by Alpine Flyer (Post 10220044)
As noted above it is indeed interesting that MOL rejected a single negotiating committee and now has to deal with 10 variations of something he doesn't seem to understand

I predict that Ryanair will now attempt to negotiate preferential terms with the unions of the countries that have the most clout (i.e. Germany) in order to eliminate them from any future action.

Ironically no doubt this will harden union positions on the very central issue of base transfers; because there is no gain in negotiating decent terms in one area, if these rights can effectively be stripped simply by transferring staff to another country, where perhaps the local labor laws are weaker


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