We can focus on obvious things like the need of increasing thrust in a GA.

But I hope the investigation committee will say something about the punitive environment at this airlines (and also other airlines), which for me is the basis of this accident. It prevents pilots from properly flying their aircraft and/or execute proper judgement and make them act as robots instead.

The gear coming up may have been a clue.

4468
 

I understand where you are coming from, however a Go Around with F/D's and A/T off should not be any drama. Power + Attitude = Performance seems to work.

However if you are intent on reverting back to automatics ASAP then you have a point.

Personally I'm a big fan of hand flying on my sector with all automatics off till through transition, or higher, especially when it's CAVOK.

To be honest if you fronted up and the DDG MEL presented you with a u/s autopilot, could you in all good conscience knock back the flight? We are after all two crew.

or U/S autothrottle? Absolutely.

Are you serious? You'd knock back a flight with A/T MEL?

The clearance was issued before the gear was selected up.

Well that certainly made for some interesting reading. If anything it confirmed what we already knew.

My thoughts are, if I was the PM on that sector I would sure as hell push those thrust levers up myself at any speed below VREF. I have had to take corrective action twice in my aviation career so far - once from a captain and once from an FO and I'd do it again if necessary. At the end of the day it is your arse on the line too, so who cares what the other guy thinks just get in there and do it if he/she is clearly unaware. If they have an issue with it you can sort it out later on the ground when everyone is still alive!

It goes to show the level of complacency we now have with automation. I won't go into that as it has been done to death in here, but it really does boggle the mind that two seemingly professional pilots could not complete one of the most basic aviation maneuvers that any pilot should be able to do with their eyes closed. Maybe it is a training issue, or an experience one, who knows, but something needs to change because we are heading down a dangerous path that has been decades in the making. Either take the pilots out of the cockpit altogether or give them a lot of training to make them much better!

It's not complacency, it's dependency. Training and practice will fix the latter.

gazumped

Nobody knows what their manual flying skills were like? They may have been keen on flying frequent manual approaches? Though comments here might seem to suggest that may not be 'encouraged' at this airline? But all those handling skills are useless if they've never (hardly ever?) seen a go-around after landing?

What 'appears' to have caught this crew out, is that the TOGA buttons (if they were pressed??) did not behave as they expected, and at a pretty busy time, it took 12 secs to recognise that fact.

Anybody with a professional license will be perfectly capable of flying a go-around after landing, IF PROPERLY TRAINED AND PREPARED FOR IT!!!

If they weren't given adequate training, it's difficult to place the fault at their door! If they were well trained, but simply unprepared, only then are we into examining human failings. Even at that point, we need to look at how intuitive the system is at that critical phase, and whether it could be more helpful?

I have to say, on first glance, it seems to me that in this precise little dark corner of flying a modern jet, Airbus looks more intuitive than Boeing!

Having flown both, that's quite some statement!!

"Airbus more intuitive than Boeing in this corner "

Agreed , except as someone else posted the Airbus G/A in this situation isn't that straightforward either as you will get a Config warning as soon as you advance the thrust levers and have to restrain yourself from planking the thing back on or retarding the levers again (motor programme) this has happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series , nasty , as the spoilers have joined as well hastening your downward progress !

Seems the TOGA inhibit was missed as discussed far, far earlier in this thread.
Ironically the FCOM procedure states, immediately after PM positions the flaps to 20,

Verify:
The rotation to Go-Around attitude
that the thrust increases

This section covers both the PF and the PM columns.

After that the PM column contains:

Verify that the thrust is sufficient for the go-around or adjust as needed

This is prior to calling positive rate. My personal habit is that being so close to terra firma then I will push the levers forward and expect my colleague to have his hands there as well to verify.

Sadly, albeit for probably many reasons, a poorly executed manoeuvre.

Nil further

You do of course receive a completely valid take off config warning on both Airbus and Boeing when conducting this manoeuvre. There's no difference between manufacturers in that regard.

Where has that "happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series", and (not that I've ever heard of it, but) even if you did retard the T/Ls, isn't it wheel spin up, plus WoWs that triggers spoiler deployment? I no longer have my Airbus books, but how would that "hasten your downward progress"? I'm afraid I'm not following? Is it just because the wheels are spinning, with no WoWs requirement?? I genuinely can't recall.

Cheers

Eh, it's a bit like a take off isn't it? Gain speed, pull back (.. but not too much).

I have never done a go-around after landing. Still, I am confident I could do it without leaving a burning wreck behind. Sometimes you just have to improvise a little, we can't train for every perceivable circumstance.

How many posters here would have stayed on the ground after wheels touched?

Were you there RAT? Did you see what they saw out the window? Are you aware of the Company SOP they operate under?
Go-arounds happen every day. Most go as planned. This one didn't. **** happens.

The last thing you want is two pairs of hands doing something to the thrust levers. A recipe for confusion on who the hell is flying the thing. In any case the co-pilot has a set of eyes. He just needs to look at the thrust levers to know what is going on. Riding the controls as some captains do if the co-pilot is PF and vice versa, is most annoying, distracting and unnecessary.

I take your point Centaurus but the PM could at least be "following up" the thrust levers - rather like Flight Engineers used to do....

Some even had the luxury of their own throttle quadrant.

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/156/156471_800.jpg

RAAS

We have RAAS on BA777s but it doesn't have this "long landing" callout.
Is this an option, and what are the parameters?

In Emirates is a go-around / baulked landing obligatory?

I understand your point Rat5. SOP and automation dependancy is affecting rational decision making, however the problem was not the decision to GA but the actual GA manoeuvre itself.

At our mob the GA procedure has an extra step after pressing TOGA and flaps 20, to read out the modes on the PFD including autopilot or Flight director, before calling for positive rate and gear up. One of the reasons is to ensure TOGA is annunciated and actioned. The Emirates SOP's in the appendix omits this step. Would it have made a difference? Who knows.

You have described the Bus missed approach SOP flyhardmo.

I am with "gazumped". Would you really cancel a flight because the automatics are not working?

I have said it on Prune before but I will say it again. I can well remember hand flying a DC-10 from London to LAX. It WAS an unusual occurrence but, when we had all discussed it as a crew and having reviewed the weather etc, we decided to get on with it. It was not a problem.

So now I am being led to believe that a B777 crew are unable to carry out a G/A without causing a disaster in VMC conditions because they are unable to revert to basics when the automatics don't work as they thought and all I hear from the modern thinkers is that DXB should have 65 wind monitors at every corner of the terminal (including the Duty Free Shop).

Thank God I have retired and have discovered cruise liners!

I would suggest to you, that if you had only flown the a/c manually 3x in the last 18 months, (and that was on a single engine in the sim!) due to your airline's attitude to manual flying/prohibition of manual thrust. Declining to operate such an a/c would be a perfectly justifiable position!

Indeed, because you clearly have no understanding whatsoever of where the business has gone since! Nor incidentally, have the travelling public in their insatiable desire for the VERY cheapest tickets!

The Costa Concordia provided a very sobering view for many months on departure from FCO.

Fare well.

JW

Off the top of my head I think you cannot enter RVSM airspace without an a/p. Need a lot of extra gas below FL 280!

BBK

PS while I think of it I believe the UK CAA stipulate that go arounds in the sim be flown with a simulated failed a/t. Good idea in the light of this accident perhaps. So Select TOGA but follow up manually.

Seriously ???
 

Reading some of the posts here on this tread, I really really hope that I never ever get to ride as a passenger with some of you posters up front.

I will admit that I have zero experience on both Boeing and Airbus liners or for that matter any other make of civilian airliner, but If any of the posters I refer to, seriously consider a go around, before or after touchdown, a difficult, complicated and stressful maneuver, they are in the wrong place and in my humble opinion there is no room for them in the cockpit. None what so ever!

A go around prior to contact with the runway should be as natural as changing your descent to a climb. A go around after touchdown should be considered as nothing more than a take-off with a head start. Oh yes some will argue, but the airliner is a complicated and automated machine. It needs to have this and that switch pressed and you need to raise the gear and the flaps, and you need to let tower know, and you need this and that…

No you don’t! Aviate – Navigate – Communicate. Fly your aircraft first and foremost, be that full manual or full automatic mode, I don’t care, but you better know your systems if you relay on automation. And you better be able to hand fly the thing if you chose to go manual or even worse, if you are forced to do so due to system malfunction. You actually don’t need to retract the gear right away, and you don’t need to retract the flaps either. If in doubt, keep the configuration as it is and fly the aircraft. You can always fly a full pattern in the configuration you had 1 second prior to landing and the same goes for 1 second after.

Once the aircraft is fully established in the climb, and your attitude, altitude and speed is under control, then go ahead raise the gear and flaps, follow your missed approach procedure (navigate) and let tower know (communicate). And you know what, even if you manage to overspeed the gear or the flaps, or even both, you won’t turn into a pumpkin. But you will, and that is guaranteed, turn into a pumpkin, if you stall or CFIT while not aviating.
Sure enough, you might have to explain to the company chief pilot why and how you ended up without your gear doors or with overstressed flaps, but then be a man and tell him how it is his responsibility to make sure that the company policy ensures all pilots are fully able to tackle a simple scenario like a go around.

I can continue with this all day, but I think I have made my point.

I don’t blame the Emirates 777 crew. They did not board that aircraft with the intention to crash. It’s the responsibility of their company to provide them with adequate and repeated training both flying and knowing the systems, and it is the regulators responsibility to verify and ensure that the company meets these requirements.
But I blame this crew for not having enough insight as to know about their own limitations and abilities. And I blame them for not having enough integrity to just elect not to fly and endanger themselves and hundreds of pax, until fully qualified.

Some of you will argue that it’s all about the money and that one has to make a living. Seriously, are you really that desperate that you are willing to risk your life (and mine too)?

My speed over the threshold is usually between 150-160 knots, but occasionally, due to circumstances beyond my control, it will be as fast as 190 knots. I don’t have some guy next to me monitoring all my actions and taking care of the comms and setting up the ILS. I don’t have all the automation to keep my speed within limits. I raise and lover my flap and gear all by myself. But I cope, and I have never feared a go-around. Why? Because I practice. And because I study and I know my systems. I am prepared! And sure I make mistakes, but most of those happened in a controlled environment (something called training), those that happen on real missions are only minor, and usually I catch those and stop them from snowballing on me. And if they start snowballing, so what, I go around and try again.

What I wrote here is nothing new. It is old news. It was already old news 20 years ago. Do not continue to make the same mistake over and over again. Especially not while I’m in the back of your aircraft!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

If you consider yourself a professional then you better act like one.

Seeya

F16Guy. Whilst I agree with everything you say, why is it that during my career I have seen many a fast jet pilot & others, make similar mistakes as this crew did? Luckily their mistakes were picked up by the other pilot or the mistake was made on the sim. IMHO their are no aces in this "game" we are humans after all.

Now hold on, nobody every said they wanted wind monitors around the Duty Free Shop. Do we really need that level of resolution on the wake turbulence from those heavy departures (with all of 8 kg payload on the loadsheet)?

Config changes on a G/A are a complete waste of time...until thrust increase has been verified..... because if you don't have a thrust increase, config changes won't do anything for you.

In a 3 second period, apparently, this crew raised the flaps, took and acknowledged a clearance and raised the gear.... but for 12 seconds, T/L's stayed in idle.

Has anyone tried to do a G/A in the sim with gear and full flap....just to see if this aircraft will do it? Just to give confidence that a 3 second delay in a config change to verify thrust, will not hugely affect INITIAL G/A performance with gear and flap?

I know SFA about the 777. Is there a multiple failure scenario where you have to manually extend the gear (so no retraction...Hyd failure??)... and perhaps don't select full flap till committed to the landing because of half flap speed or no flap retract (elec/hyd fault??) in case of G/A.... But then you have to G/A anyway... due to say, runway incursion, RAAS etc etc. Knowing the capability of the aircraft will help in times of abnormal situations.

Knowing if Mr RR or Mr GE will give you a better chance of a successful outcome compared to Mr Dowty's brakes or a drag reduction is knowledge that will save lives.

And all this talk of further automation to monitor the automation????:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

It would be cheaper to bring back the flight engineer to monitor the only 2 things on a flight deck that are going to kill him and everyone else!!!!!

I am quite surprised that so many on here are dismissive of anyone "who cannot fly a GA" with no distinction between the planned and unplanned versions. Missed Approach procedure will be included in the midair briefing but I dont think anyone ever says here's what we will do if we bounce 85 ft or land with the wheels up. Both events happened to this crew and they must have been shocked to the core. Though faced with a fast diminishing runway as well they still managed to do a dry Sullenburger.
And another thing, while so much is automated shouldnt there be inhibition of raising the gear until certain actions and height are met?

In a 3 second period, apparently, this crew raised the flaps, took and acknowledged a clearance and raised the gear.... but for 12 seconds, T/L's stayed in idle.
[/QUOTE]

This accident seems to be a CRM breakdown, cultures don't get more different between Oz and ME? different experience? maybe the gradient went the wrong way in the flight deck?

Listening to the tower recording I don't recall hearing the FO tell ATC we are going around rather than being given an instruction to climb 4000, could have been distracting if this was the case.

ATC in UAE is very good but some controllers can have an attitude and a sharp tongue, priority to answer ATC over monitoring?

Nothing wrong with EK SOPs or Boeings re the go around procedure, but I can imagine what was going through the skippers mind when the RAS call outs started, at trip to the office, removed from roster, friends asking what you did, in a career we will all end up in the office, the guys working in the office see it everyday, they will tell you this.

Trying to land a 777 on a hot runway at max landing weight with a tailwind in often turbulent air (the touch down zone comes and goes pretty quickly)its what we are paid to do, is it pleasant? Not always, sitting next a brand new guy who has demonstrated little situational awareness through out the flight who we've never seen land before, this can be stressful.

I feel very sorry for the crew I just hope we can take something positive away from this as more comes out in the future.

Happy flying guys, Enos

A GA after landing...............oh my oh my how complicated can you get......?

Sounds awfully like a touch and go. ........meat and taties for any student pilot.

Suggesting this is a difficult manoeuvre is just ludicrous in the extreme. The only difficulty would be in doing it using all automatics and and trying to get everything done in a 3 second window, reply to ATC and making it look as elegant as possible.

Two steps are required 1 push the power levers up
2 select and hold an attitude slightly above level


Everything else is to make it look pretty, you know flap back a notch, positive rate ( I was taught VSI and ALT both sustained increasing, and visually departing Mother Earth)......... After a suitable pause..........gear up.

As for hand flying above FL280, you must have a serviceable A/P, I don't recall if you actually have to use it.

Let me propose a hypothetical, ..........

if the crew of AF447 had seen and flown their aircraft in the past as a regular habit in the cruise and seen from experience exactly what a typical climb and cruise attitude looked like............ Do you honestly think they would have selected 29 degrees nose up to prevent a possible overspeed?

Let me now ask all of the assembled..............would you be able to hand fly your aircraft in the cruise accurately + or - 100'. and can you tell me what the level flight attitude is with F/D's off?

So now explain to me what use RVSM was to AF447, and which skill was more important, managing the automatics or being able to hand fly the aircraft?

Explain to me how Air Asia X crew tried to solve their navigation problem with automatics, and by the captains admission a "dire emergency was only avoided by ATC vectoring them"...... all the way to Melbourne. Another crew completely incapable of hand flying the aircraft on raw data after the automatics didn't do as expected.

How many of these crew are out there operating ok so long as the automatics work............and more to the point how many crew are latent accidents waiting for the automatics to fail?

What guarantee can anyone provide me automatics never failing, or doing something unintended? In fact it would appear that the biggest risk to modern jet fleet is exactly this scenario,........automatics stuff up......and crew not equipped to pick up the pieces.

IMHO the insidious decline in hand flying skills is a time bomb ticking away, and it would appear to be periodically detonating.......

Dependency/complacency, whatever you want to call it the end result is a smashed up 777 because nobody was aware of what was going on. I don't blame the crew, like others said they had no intention of crashing a plane that day. But **** happens! I have seen the 777 rosters at EK, they are brutal and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that fatigue played a huge part in this.

TDZ
 

This is why you should get into the habit of landing in the touchdown zone or going around asap if it isn't happening. Simple to remember, helps keep your stick and rudder sharp, and would have avoided this outcome.

Or

Stop the presses......

Allow the use of Airmanship, rather than trying to create a set of rules that tries, but fails miserably, to cover every set of eventualities.

You are soo right because if(in the event of the long landing auto call)they are compelled to GA then maybe the whole GA thought process has to be quickly retrieved and is not something they anticipated. Let us cut the crew some slack🙄🙄

DISSERTATION ABOUT BEING A CAPTAIN
 

If we could establish a list of the best qualities displayed by all the Captains that we have encountered and known, we would have the ideal Captain's description. We know that to get an ideal Captain, according to this list, it would be really difficult if not impossible. However, we could analyze diverse aspects related to the responsibilities of a Captain, auto-evaluate and define an ideal that they have shown us with dignity.
Decisions Making Process and Safety.
First and foremost, the objective is the safety of the flight. The rules and regulations give you the authority to take any action that you consider necessary in order to guarantee the safety of the flight. Any time you have a doubt taking a decision related to something that impacts the safety of the operation, be conservative. If you make a mistake, it should be for benefit of Safety.
When you experience difficulties in taking a decision, ask yourself this question: “What am I suppose to do?” You will never end up with problems if you do what you are supposed to do.

1/ Yes I can
2/ 3 degrees and 88% at normal weights and altitudes
This is basic stuff in my airline, I remember being grilled on it as a new f/o .If you fly for a descent outfit it can be hard to believe that some folk don't know these things. I have flown in parts of the world where many of the pilots don't know basic stuff like this. The difference in standards as you make your way around the globe is staggering.

IcePack,

You missed my point. This is not a military vs civilian pissing contest. I know lots of civilian pilots that I consider to be aces. And I know lots of military pilots who suck. The main difference is that in the military we will provide pilots who suck with the required training in a controlled environment, until they become safe pilots. If we cannot achieve and maintain that with training they will be washed out! We simply don’t have room for them in the cockpits.
I have also seen military top notch pilots change into unsafe pilots once over in the civilian world due to lack of sustained training. Skills will degrade over time if you don’t actively seek to maintain them. You get good at what you practice!


portmanteau,

There is no such thing as a planned Go Around. The planned version is called a low approach and a Touch and Go respectively before and after contact with the runway. You don’t need to brief what to do if you end up bouncing 85 ft. I assume that you already know what to do. If not, stay out of the cockpit. You don’t brief an unplanned gear up landing either, but if you end up in one, try to keep it on the centerline and pull the power back. And if you want to make it a textbook unplanned gear up landing, remember to set the gear handle to the down position before evacuating the cockpit. That way you will follow normal behavior for an unplanned belly flop….


gazumped,

Good post. Pitch and Power (or Control and Performance) will save the day. I know by heart a rough Pitch and Power Settings for any phase of the flight. And I use it on a daily basis. Every time I need to enter a new phase of flight (Climb, cruise, descent etc.) I start by setting the rough Pitch and Power that will match what I need. Then when everything settles down I make minor corrections to nail the parameters I am looking for. Establish, Trim Cross-Check, Adjust……

As pax, I wonder if the size and force of the bounce didn't rattle their teeth and delay their response? It may well have been the biggest and baddest bounce they had ever had and it may well have broken their train of thought. If both their mental AND physical composure had beeen lost, how long to refocus? If, meanwhile, they were taking actions they were used to, something could easily go awry.