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-   -   Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost.html)

thcrozier 8th Mar 2014 07:07

@Freshgasflow

Start here: NOAA - Search and Rescue Satellite Aided Tracking - Emergency Beacons

freshgasflow 8th Mar 2014 07:10

@amos regarding ELT
 
The reason I am asking this forum about the ELT is that Google gives a huge amount of nonspecific information on ELT. This forum has experts who can tailor the information specifically to the B 777.

Let me add another question. What type of crash / situation will make a ELT signal not be detected ? I.e it is designed to with stand ground impact ? and designed to float , so shouldn't it "always" work in a crash ?

skytrax 8th Mar 2014 07:17

Any speculations in regards to what happened to this aircraft are non sense at this point in time. Wait at least until they find it. As per now, the aircraft is considered missing, they can only change the status to crashed after they locate it. Don't go about assuming of what it might had happened because many out there are gonna use these speculations in the wrong way. Think about the families of the ones involved.
A very sad day for us working in the same industry and not only.

P.S. B777 has several beacons. The ELT is designed to start emitting once is submerged. But wait, as I said, we dont even know for sure if the plane hit the water. They only know that it lost contact above the sea.

Flyingmole 8th Mar 2014 07:20

Why is it meaningless to say Publicly Available Radar? And why do airlines and airports not (i) go to FlightRadar24 (ii) move the map to the Malaysia arae (iii) pit "MA" into the filters to track only Malaysian aircraft (iv) go to the 'Playback' control and set it for 16.45 hrs 07.03.2014 and (v) watch a reply of the tragedy as MH370 is tracked flying North until at 17.23 GMT at 6.97 Latitude and 103.63 Longitude it disappears from the screen. Can anyone tell me why, when it took me just five minutes to do the above, that nobody in search & rescue, the airlines, the airports or the press seem able to cotton on to the fact that all this inof is out there, just waiting to be accessed?

thcrozier 8th Mar 2014 07:23

Gasflow: Your question has various answers. You might be better off asking at the Tech Forum.


Anyway, here is one ELT approved for installation in the 777:


Artex B406 Boeing Emergency Locator Transmitter | ACR ARTEX


There also "pingers" which are supposed to send out a signal from the FDR and the CVR if they are submerged in water.

CaptainEmad 8th Mar 2014 07:27

Gasflow,

The Artex B406-4 Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) system consists of the ELT transmitter installed in the aft overhead cabin adjacent to the ELT antenna on the upper aft fuselage. Connected to the ELT transmitter is a programming dongle. Finally, a Remote Switch is installed in the cockpit to control the ELT system.

The ELT automatically activates during a crash and transmits the standard swept tone on 121.5 and 243.0 MHz. It also transmits a 406 MHz encoded digital message.

ActivationAutomatic by 4.5 feet per second (2.3 G) Primary G-Switch or Manual https://www.cobham.com/media/185117/...e%20manual.pdf


It stays with the airframe. Have a read of the AF447 thread...:E
Try google.com. It is a search engine.

nitpicker330 8th Mar 2014 07:29

Flight Radar24 is a compilation of unofficial personal receivers out in the world placed into one website in Russia for us all to watch. Whilst I love the App and use it frequently It doesn't cover all of the planet and is unreliable.

Remember ADS-B transmit receive data is "line of sight" and maybe, just maybe the data you are watching comes to an end because MH 370 moved out of sight of the receiver Flight Radar24 use in that part of the World.

"Not to be used for navigation" or proof of....

FlyingTinCans 8th Mar 2014 07:37

Flyingmole,
FlightRadar24 may give you the impression it's an accurate radar tracking service, it's not.

It's not regulated, it can be highly inaccurate and is not used for any official purpose, it's nothing more than a grown ups toy

ARNSpoty 8th Mar 2014 07:39

Flew in the same vicinity yesterday (07/02 - 2150LT as crew) and surprisingly the smoothest one so far, not at all sign wx

StormyKnight 8th Mar 2014 07:48

@nitpicker330 You may be right but in my experience, the ALT doesn't drop to zero before the signal is lost. The signal transmitted is digital, i.e. it sends a value. I'm not sure however on the degree of error correction used in the signal for decoding or determining a valid transmission. And I might point out my experience is with planes going out of range, not those having some sort of problem which results is the signal stopping.

Also Flightradar & similar services do not use RADAR...they use a digital signal transmitted by the plane which contains the GPS location, speed & altitude plus the Callsign details. The digital data is decoded to reveal the GPS location of the plane as determined by the GPS on the plane. In my opinion this is very accurate...as accurate as a GPS can be...+- 10m horizontal?

LapSap 8th Mar 2014 07:51

nitpicker330 is one of the few speaking any sense here.

He is correct when he says the route was most probably via M771 which is basically over water the whole way until Hong Kong. Possible it could have been via DAN A1. Haven't seen the FPL.


As he and others have said, basing assumptions of crash location on publically available, incomplete surveillance data is just non-sensicle.

That said nitpicker, the data I saw seemed to stop abruptly right at TOC. Virtually the same update infact.

Is there any action you carry out regularly virtually right at TOC? eg switch tfr pumps on/off etc?? Just wondering.
Any thing else that could trigger a catastrophic failure just at TOC? Pwr reduction/engine disintegration?

mickjoebill 8th Mar 2014 07:55


We experienced no problem with VHF Comms with HCM Centre, and VVTS CPDLC/ADS also worked fine. We encountered no adverse wx - in fact it was a beautiful clear NE monsoon night, though there was some limited scattered lightning visible way off to the SW.
777Boyo,
Thanks for a very pertinent report, on Friday March 7th the (1/2 moon) set at Kuala Lumpur at 22.39hrs local time, none the less, could you define the horizon?

Australopithecus 8th Mar 2014 07:55

Flight Radar24 ADS data is still dependant on enthusiasts being in range with proper equipment. Can you see other flight tracks in the area? ( I am not going to pay to look)

I can watch FR24 targets near me wiggle around and sometimes jump 20 miles in a second. I think its a useful gizmo, but not for forensics.

SiriuslyCold 8th Mar 2014 07:56

newbie here.

I'm wondering why no one has remarked on FlightAware's ADS-B data further down the page, where it's picked up at 22.3598, 114.0461 by the receiver at VHSK?

StormyKnight 8th Mar 2014 08:00

Just putting this out there...possibly related technical question.
If the GPS for the ADS-B lost power OR lost connection to the ADS-B transmitter, would the ADS-B still transmit an altitude of zero feet or can it transmit that it has invalid data due to no GPS connection?

dk88 8th Mar 2014 08:03


After 15 hours Malaysia Airlines PR confirms that #MH370 disappeared near last Flightradar24 position and not "after 2 hours of flight"
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/st...22070727204864

Australopithecus 8th Mar 2014 08:04

1. It does not use GPS altitude information.
2. There are at least two GPS receivers
3. In the event of GPS signal compromise there is still inertial position data via the FMS

p.j.m 8th Mar 2014 08:07


Flight Radar24 ADS data is still dependant on enthusiasts being in range with proper equipment
Others have mentioned that other aircraft prior to and after MH370 were tracked their entire flightpath between Malaysia and Vietnam. I don't believe there is a lack of coverage from the ADSB receivers in the area.

Also the data from FR24 pretty much exactly lines up with that published by MAS, and other sources such as the Vietnamese Navy.

MH370 Flight Incident | Malaysia Airlines

The last known position of MH370 before it disappeared off the radar was 065515 North (longitude) and 1033443 East (latitude).
MAS does not indicate what type of radar their data comes from.

It would see that all that remains to be seen is whether the aircraft crashed there (as the additional altitude data from FR24 seems to indicate) or whether that was where the electronics ceased working.

Squawk_ident 8th Mar 2014 08:14

Right turn
 
Observing FR24 the latest ADSB transmission of the MAS370 is at 6.97N 103.63E at FL350. At this time the aircraft is over IGARI 6.94N 103.58E on the R208 at heading 25. Seems that MAS370 was cleared direct IGARI because slightly offtrack. IGARI is the last WPT before the FIR boundary WSJC Singapore / VVTS HoChiMinh. At 1720z, over IGARI, a right turn is initiated to BITOD to join the M765 as per FPL I presume.
The mag course between IGARI and BITOD is 059. The last adsb transmission of the aircraft is 40 deg precisely during this right turn. Flight level remains unchanged but becomes 0ft as the turn is initiated.
Closest aircraft in the vicinaty of the MAS370 is the CES539 at FL360 6.03N 104.96E from PVG to KUL on the L642.

spongenotbob 8th Mar 2014 08:16


That said nitpicker, the data I saw seemed to stop abruptly right at TOC. Virtually the same update infact.

Is there any action you carry out regularly virtually right at TOC? eg switch tfr pumps on/off etc?? Just wondering.
Any thing else that could trigger a catastrophic failure just at TOC? Pwr reduction/engine disintegration?
Now that's an insightful post. I noticed the same thing, ~1000 fpm climb up to 35,000 ft, ONE more position report at 35,000 ft, then nothing.

What would a typical MAS flight crew on a routine 777 flight do immediately upon reaching TOC?

11:57AM 4.2042 102.2904 25 Northeast 472 543 30,000 1,200 http://e1.flightcdn.com/images/live/arrow_up.gif http://e0.flightcdn.com/images/live/fasource.gif FlightAware ADS-B (WMSA / SZB)
12:01PM 4.7015 102.5251 25 Northeast 468 539 35,000 960 http://e1.flightcdn.com/images/live/arrow_up.gif http://e0.flightcdn.com/images/live/fasource.gif FlightAware ADS-B (WMKP / PEN)
12:02PM 4.7073 102.5278 25 Northeast 468 539 35,000 http://e1.flightcdn.com/images/live/blank12x13.gif http://e0.flightcdn.com/images/live/fasource.gif FlightAware ADS-B (WMKP / PEN)


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