The main reporter for the NY Times story wrote it from Sepang Malaysia, he was assisted by two reporters in Washington.
The climb to 45,000 ft, the descent to 23,000 ft, are based on Malaysian military radar. The 40,000 foot descent in one minute is based on engine data, and is discounted as unreliable by 'investigators'. (The source for the 40,000 foot descent reference was a Washington official.) The two initial course changes, and flight then stabilizing at a cruise altitude of 29,500 feet are based on Malaysian military radar. The NY Times article does not reference the VAMPI, GIVAL, IGREX waypoints. The VAMPI waypoint looks to be near the island of Pulan Perak, where earlier reports said Malaysian military radar lost track of it. GIVAL is about 54 NM from VAMPI. |
multiple sources
In reply to Silanda --
Reuters and ABC News both independently have reported that there is data indicating that the plane flew for 4-5 more hours after transponder shutoff. Further, the WSJ has developed the story with additional sources subsequent to their scoop. |
he so-called "pings" being followed, are all electronic noise being erroneously followed - like confetti being tracked, instead of the wedding. |
ACARS Pings
Note that BA claims no such contract- and RR also claims no ( engine? ) data after a few minutes before transponder shut down. I suspect that some technical types consider DATA only to be ( engine parameters and the like ) and the non technical types do NOT consider a simple ping to be DATA … or vice versa depending on background. And about 99 percent of the media pundits don't know the difference. So when RR says NO engine data - they **probably mean ** no engine parameters- and do not count a ping per se as DATA The press probably thinks or defines NO DATA as being NO pings Not sure how often ACARS pings occur - would guess somewhere between once every 5 minutes and once every hour. |
About an hour into the flight, the plane's transponders stopped functioning In the ensuing minutes, a second system sent a routine aircraft-monitoring message to a satellite indicating that someone made a manual change in the plane's heading, veering sharply to the west. Those system-monitoring messages are suspected to have been disabled shortly afterward, according to some of these people. "Increasingly, it seems to be heading into the criminal arena," said Richard Healing, a former member of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. |
Originally Posted by dmba
(Post 8376130)
I'm totally against sharing this but it's had over 1 million views and the guy is getting money for advertising...despite the "second video" showing reg of the flight from the next day. Ie this is fake. Sick.
Busted! Flight Radar Caught Changing Flight Path of Malaysia Flight 370! - YouTube This had duped an awful lot of people, I do hope not related to NY Times though. That video makes suggestions on this forum look far from fantasy. The question is though is if this data from another flight be in obvious error, how can we rely on the actual flight data? Does ADS-B have error correction or CRC (Cyclic redundancy check)? |
So if we have a given of:
Inmarsat data is good This seems a huge amount of trouble to go to if the end result was the plane in the sea. Why not just go right in right away? So this seems to leave us with the plane actually is hidden somewhere or the plan failed for unknown reasons. |
The claimed altitude of 45Kft seems highly implausible - balancing a pin on a knife-edge sort of thing. As for the claimed altitude loss of 40Kft in one minute, well, it doesn't seem likely there would be much left after trying that one. Am I wrong? Anyway one of the CNN talking heads (I forget who), but covering the Pentagon I think, basically dismissed this as information derived from the Malaysian radar system at the extreme limit of it's capabilities and likely highly unreliable. Any other supporting evidence?
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Aussiepax - it might be relatively easy to notice a turn in daytime when light levels and shadows in the cabin change in response to a turn (or you are sitting near a window) but it might not always be as detectable as many think. There's an excellent article on spatial disorientation in the current issue of Flight Safety Australia called 'Don't believe your ears". It also features Captain de Crespigny in an interesting experiment with a Barany chair and gives the methodology so anyone who's interested can replicate these somatogyral/somatogravic illusionary experiments with their own rotating chair at home. The author states that even the graveyard spiral isn't detectable to the inner ear - a pilot can still sense they are in straight and level flight. From the story... "One telling detail in how the vestibular apparatus functions is that the semi-circular canals have a stimulation threshold of two degrees a second. You will not feel yaws or rotations slower than this. Autopilot software on airliners exploits this fact; so that passengers are unaware an aircraft is zig-zagging to avoid storms or traffic. But the threshold also means pilots can't detect a slow divergence from straight-and-level flight."
Full article here: Civil Aviation Safety Authority - FSA issue 97 - Don't believe your ears |
cynar, DFDR would/will tell plenty. That can not be overridden. Whatever can be retrieved from CVR be a bonus.
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Porterhouse:
You have a right not to like the electronic evidence but frankly your so called "witnesses" can equally easily be dismissed. |
Originally Posted by island_airphoto
(Post 8376566)
So if we have a given of:
Inmarsat data is good The data is likely used by numerous identities, not just forwarded (on a subscription basis) to MAS, or RR or the NSA etc At this point in time its not known if the absense of data, equals the last location of the aircraft. |
I didn't mean to imply last Inmarsat record = end of the airplane. They could have finally found out how to turn it off. OTOH for the entire time it WAS on the plane had to be intact at least with electrical power.
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45 to 5 in a minute??
"The claimed altitude of 45Kft seems highly implausible - balancing a pin on a knife-edge sort of thing. As for the claimed altitude loss of 40Kft in one minute, well, it doesn't seem likely there would be much left after trying that one. Am I wrong?"
No, for a start why take the aircraft outside its safe operating altitude and to achieve such a rapid decent in one minute would probably cause immeasurable structural damage. So if the intention was to "confuse" anyone by then flying somewhere else (after taking major steps to disable comms) why take that risk. Brings this NYT info into serious question. |
Originally Posted by Communicator
(Post 8376545)
Inmarsat's press release disclosed that Inmarsat has provided link data to its client SITA (which runs part of the ACARS service). SITA then forwarded the information to MAS.
Maybe I am grossly misunderstanding their official statement, but honestly I can't read there any confirmation of what's being widely speculated on several mainstream sources and here during the last two days. |
"#3523 (permalink)Hypoxia as a way to get compliant pax and cabin crew?
I suppose one way to make passengers and cabin crew compliant with any kind of nefarious activity on the flight deck would be to depressurize the aircraft slowly while the flight crew put on O2 masks. If everyone in the back has blacked out from hypoxia then there wouldn't be much resistance emanating from the cabin. Could this work?" Yes, and as I suggested yesterday an environment of elevated CO2 would also incapacitate the passengers - whether intentional or as an accident. Once the passengers were unconscious O2 masks would be futile as the liter flow is too low. Just wondering what a pilot would do if their entire passenger manifest were accidentally overcome (dead) by elevated CO2. Land in Beijing with Malaysia Airlines taking blame immediately, or ditch the plane in the deep ocean and leave speculation open for months if not years. My opinion only. |
and the laws of physics state that man-made constructions fail But we know from statistical analysis of causes of aircraft accidents that what fails even more is pilot's mind. |
Originally Posted by 1stspotter
(Post 8376364)
ABC News reports that two data systems were switched off with an interval of 14 minutes.
First at 1:07 AM the data transmission system was not sending data anymore, then at 1.21 AM the transponder did not sent any data. ABC suggest this was done deliberatley. The 'ping data' to satellites is the only system which cannot be shutdown manually. Malaysia Airline Search Intensifies in Two Widely Separated Areas - ABC News |
Originally Posted by Titania
(Post 8376380)
Do you mean to tell me that pilots would not know to navigate by the stars?
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