Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe
 

Hi,

I just found a (more or less) short essay (in german and in english) about the new EASA regulations on a german website. Although I'm not sure if this wouldn't be better placed in one of the GA subforums (hint to the moderators: sorry for that, move it as you like), I think this one should be read by just every pilot available :-)

(Note: Please READ the actual essay. Don't judge by its headline, that would miss the point. It's about European bureaucracy and lobbyism killing ICAO achievements of the past. It's just about the new EASA regulations, not about italian phantasy taxes etc...)

Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe

I had no idea. Sorry to hear this.

As a european, i went through all required exams to gain my JAA Atpl.All 14 exams and skill test.
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop bitc@@@@@@@:ugh:

I'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States!:suspect:

Lets not forget the FTLs they're trying to increase....

Its a disgrace the whole system. I'm not quite sure on how this scenario would play out but imagine your a European pilot, you leave for the sand pit, do 10 years. You've converted your UK or EASA licence to the UAE one. Now its time to come back....I'm guessing you will be in the same situation as any 'foreign' pilot wishing to exercise his skills on European soil?

The only good part about this new licence is TR's stay on your licence for life subject to refresher/revalidation courses.

Not correct, at least my european license (IR)remains valid while i work for an airline overseas.
However the type rating expires after a year but can be reinstated after a jaa skill test in sim of such type.

North America turning pilots away European pilots
 

Quote:3barsI'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States






Comments, like the above, are not in line with my experience as a pilot
who has trained and checked out many European,and other, nationals.

Many AirForce pilots from Europe have been trained here as have many private pilots AT A COST FAR LESS THAN THAT CHARGED IN EUROPE, I may add.

Mis-information is worse than not knowing at all !

As far as acceptable piloting standards, ICAO has regulations governing these and, if adhered to by the training countries, pilots should be able to fly in any other country that follows these rules as well.

If airspace has become at a premium, such as in Europe, there still remains the fact that clearance obtained is (should be) the same as in all ICAO standard airspace.:ugh:

It has been this way for a little while unfortunately and only shows signs of getting stupider.
Being a Kiwi with the right to reside in Europe, with an Australian, NZ, Fijian, Indo and PNG CPL (these required 2 exams each and about $100 in expenses), a fair amount of experience I find it a bit daft that I cant even fly a C208 here in Europe.
This means that I have no choice but to drag my French wife and son out of Europe in order to provide for them.
Unless of course I sit all the exams - Again. And get basically financially shafted.

De Facto.... Stop bitching? Say that to my wife! You talk of what you know nothing. Shut your trap.

Really is a pity for Europe, as there are a hell of a lot of Canadians, Americans, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis who would love to fly here. Would probably aid the industry having more 2000+ hour pilots around.

Ah well, to bad. :ugh:

One more reason..
And another one...
I am in china to provide for my family.. Like i said .,stop bitc@@@@.

De Facto.

So you are in China, so what? Many of us work abroad. I myself have done it many times and will continue to do so. The article refers to the difference compared to other ICAO countries. However you are not here (Europe) having to deal with this rubbish.
Being a Euro pilot, you wont have to deal with this when and if you choose to return.

So enlighten us oh mighty one, why the attitude?

Care to expand on these "reasons"?

or prefer to stay with sweeping general statements?

Adam F...

I flew in north America for several years mate - before that I had a UK PPL in the UK but ultimately gained a Canadian CPL/ME/IR and worked there.

I now work back in Europe and converted to the JAA (EASA) CPL/ME/IR. I went into it eyes wide open, and yes it cost me a significant amount. Its no good complaining about it - as others have said, it is what it is, its perfectly clear what is required. You have a choice.

As for flying on type in Europe (your C208) there is a significant difference in (rather complex) procedures in EASA land (largely due to an umbrella structure that encompasses many different countries, languages etc) and this needs to be instructed. It was way easier to take my old licence to Canada than vice versa.

Granted EASA is bureaucratic and expensive, but it is what it is.

The stupidity of these new EASA licences is endless. Listen. A certain large UK PLC operating a couple of private King Air 200's decided many years ago, for safety reasons, to operate them 2 crew with 2 fully rated pilots. Under CAA/JAR licencing this was fine and dandy. Along come EASA and say: " You cannot do that as the King Air is a single pilot certficated aircraft and you do not have a multi crew type rating on your ATPL". No dispensations are alowed so the pilots had to do a Multi crew type rating (HS125), get it endorsed on their licences in order to be legal to fly the King Air multi crew. A perfect Catch 22. If I had not been involved in their traning and heard it from the pilots I would not have believed it. To pay for all this BS the CAA have increased my AOC fees by 25% this year. No wonder I am loosing so much business to M registered charter aircraft that the CAA say do not exist.

Finals 19.

Quite right, we do have the choice. I also came here eyes wide open knowing that id have to take I hiatus or spend what I don't have. My issue is not with the fact that I have to do this extra (if my original post sounded like a whinging togie, I do apologise, not my intention). My issue is WHY. This is what the article was alluding to.
If ICAO is being ignored, then what's the point? The training in NZ is no different than that in the UK. So why does the EU continue to make it difficult/expensive. It is counter productive.

If we just keep quiet, say yes sir and don't question the issue, it will not change.

I understand that many out there don't want it to change.

I pity them. Because then every nation will start playing the same dam game.

And that will damage aviation. Not just in the EU but everywhere that decides to play this game

If I operate a N registered bus jet in the EU, why would I have to get an EU licence, when the AOC is American.......not buying it.

In fact, let them go ahead with this ruling and see how long it lasts, the industry needs 20 000 pilots a year for the next 20 years, good luck to them - twats!

kingpost;

20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!

I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!

Further I believe there came a ruling EASA, that N-reg pilots residing in EU land, is required to have EASA licence! At least there was rumours of this some time ago!

So what will it cost me to go over to FAA land, and convert my JAA IR to an FAA IR? I was quoted for getting PPL issued, would be looking at around £1000, the IR re-validation would be less? Just wondering, not that I am considering to do it!

Everything in EU land is more expensive than the US, but is it really that great difference in the end?

Wrong! If you don't keep current you will loose it all after seven years. Flying outside of easa will not count.
It has always been the case that a European license was more difficult to obtain, the Americans make it easier to get an initial license but regulate things in a different way. No real change!

EASA = ****. No two ways about it.
It used to be that I had plans for the big lottery win along the lines of: buy Spitfire, buy Aston Martin etc etc.
Now it's: set up an organistaion to identify, pursue and prosecute all relevant EASA personnel for gross incompetence, criminal negligence etc etc and GET RID of the bastards. Then get Britain out of the EU.
Rant only just starting.........

@DB6 - go for it mate, let's hear the rest! ;-)

Are we to be totally controlled by the EU?...is this the end of my career?
 

It was with a degree of shock that I read about the new rulings being ratified by some faceless wonders on Brussels....there has been rumours of somewthing like this happening for years, but now some Back room boys have finally got it all together, and are enforcing this legislation upon us. I am quite sure that many of us with JAA/EASA licences have in some way looked down from our lofty positions, having passed our ATP exams.....at the seemingly inferior FAA equivalent....and yes, flying in Europe does have its challenges, so a European Licence may be deemed necessary???....

I have been flying for 30 years, and have held a CAA ATPL and an FAA ATPL, currently have 9000 hours on type of the Corporate Jet that I fly. Many Corporate Jets are operated on the US "November" register, or on various smaller Registered Authorities for primarily Tax reasons of the owners.....so to fly these aircraft, we have to comply to this requirement. Over the years I have unfortunately not kept up with my European Licences, due to cost and availability of Sim instructors. Also a minor Health issue, now renders me unable to hold a JAA Class 1 Medical Cetificate, but I have no problem meeting the requirements of the FAA Class 1......now, thanks to some chinless wonders in the European Parliament, I now have two years to end my Career in Aviation, at the age of 50. The European Union is not even a signatory to ICAO regulations.....presumably, because it is not actually a Ratified State.....or am I missing something.....has the United States of Europe been born and I missed it????

Unless I now resign from my position, (held for 15 years) and seek a job elsewhere in the World, with other countries that are ICAO signatories, I will be facing a very bleak future indeed. Kids about to start University, and No Flight Crew Licence is not a place I had worked so hard to achieve...

Can anyone tell me just who, when, why and what, has allowed the so called European Aviation Safety Agency, to start controlling peoples livelihoods, without any form of discussion, no grounding on any element of safety issues, just a European, self satisfied, bureacratically driven, unilateral sense of delusionary grandeur.....

I am hoping that not only can I hear from other Flight Crew in the same position, but also from all Flightcrew, who will support their fellow Pilots, against this tyrannical decision from the EU.

The aim of the EU is to weald total control of the population by imposing its undemoratic directives upon peoples and industries. The leaders are interested only in their own aims, those of the citizens do not count. We now have EASA which degrades the CAA to a gofor and paperwork executive. Now that this monolith is established local concerns do not have a chance of being aired. Citizens of the old USSR will recognise this regime immediately, sadly we missed killing it at birth.

Regarding IR lapsing after 7 years, you have to retake some of the ATPL / IR exam subjects etc. Also it questions those flying abroad on foreign validations from their European issued license. Clearly the situation of a pilot flying abroad a heavy jet with a valid multi IR was never considered.

Those renewing IR's that may have booked an examiner direct and used their own plane, will have to renew via a FTO. The rules state something along the lines of how much training / discretion by the FTO, versuses time lapsed in months / year of the IR rating. e.g. less than 3 months, FTO descretion and beyond required training of X hours before test.

Some could argue, those examiners who perhaps tested private owners, outside of FTO's could loose out financially.

Those that are applying for their first multi crew operator job who might do a 1.5hr sim and then test currently whilst paying off debts. May now find under the new rules, the FTO make them do a lot more time in the sim / aircraft, increasing the costs further, before signing them off to take the test.

The UK CAA has not opposed this to EASA or put forward any other proposals.

Slightly off thread, but this attitude to 'foreign' licences from different agencies is nothing new.

Of course it doesn't affect me now, but during my working life I flew UK registered aircraft under IFR flight plans - and conditions ! - in and out and around New Zealand using my UK ATPL and I/R, but when I came to live here and attempted to convert my UK ATPL to a NZ one, I was told that a UK I/Rtg. was quote "not recognised", so I could only have a PPL.

My UK instrument was acceptable to fly around NZ in a UK registered a/c, so why is it any different if that registration is now NZ ? Just bureaucracy, but as I've said, nothing new.

I have every sympathy with those affected, best of luck chaps.

( P.s. I used to have a saying regarding my working conditions - quote " do it today 'cos tomorrow it will be worse " - sounds like it's still valid ! )

Well I guess the EU believes that they control the world, just look at the emissions charges that they are trying to make everyone pay, not just for flying in EU airspace but for all airspace from the departure point and after departing all the airspace to their next destination. Now this idiotic regulation.

Where does our goverment stand on this issue? Oh, sorry, stupid question. But somebody needs to tell the EU to stuff it, like the rest of the world. China and the US would make a great start.

Totalitarian bureaucracy run amok. :rolleyes:

I'll quote it for you from the Boeing website :

Pilot and Technical Training Requirements

As the world commercial fleet expands to more than 39,500 airplanes over the next 20 years, the world's airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, both to fly and maintain the new airplanes and to replace current personnel who are due to retire during the period.

From the horses mouth, I got it wrong, it's not 20000 pilots it's 23000 - think before leap with your hogwash comments.

Maybe a little more research before you comment next time.

Safe flying

A Real Shame
 

A little competition or protectionism is understandable. This is just outrageous.

I am so grateful for the training I got in the US. I had a PPL when I arrived there, and it cost me less than 10000 USD to get a CPL Multi/IR (more than 15 years ago). With my small budget, the US was the only option, I got a validation of my European PPL in ONE HOUR and for FREE (previous appointment required). It cost less than 50 USD to get ALL the ezam prep books for you studies. It cost me 900 Euros to get the whole written series from Bristol aviation....If it wasn'tfor the US, I'd be growing potatoes instead of flying planes.

But the best gift I got from this, is a license that never expires and is recognized worldwide (aside EU), as long as I keep flying and renew my medical, there is virtually nothing else to do.

Flying internationally now based outside Europe (first by necessity, then by choice), I will have to fork out money to maintain a JAR license, although I fly everyday for an airline with a different licensing system, on the same aircraft type.

It is not only penalizing the pilots from outside EU, but also all EU pilots who had to move abroad due to economic uncertainties in EU Land, and fly now on a different aviation authority.

Anyway even within JAR territory, there is so much crap still between countries, for example the French DGAC requires to apply for a license validation from another JAR member state in order to fly a french registered airplane...:ugh::ugh: , or you have to go to your country of (JAR) license issue in order to pass your English proficiency... Thank you EASA, you make my life complicated, and you cost me more money than it should, not to mention the insult it has become to international pilots, after reading this article.

Flex

Some 11 years ago, when I had to get the FAA A&P licence, the biggest problem for me as a European was not the technical knowledge (I already had an Irish AME licence and a JAR 66 B1), but to get a letter from an American operator to the FAA, which stated that I, as a foreigner, was required to maintain their aircraft and that no American national was available to do the job.
Mind, at this time I was working for a big American cargo airline on their European base, a fact which was at least known to the FAA field representative, who had to issue the certificate to allow me to take the exams.
I don´t think that the EASA put any of such obstacles in the way ( it is more likely up to the individual EU countries to regulate the access of non-EU citizens to their markets through labour laws, not through aviation laws).
Similarly I had American colleagues, who lived in Europe and were bitching about the fact that they had to get an EASA licence (or JAR licence at this time) to get a wellpaying job certifying for European aircraft (there are not too many maintence companies around in Europe where one can get a good job solely based on a FAA A&P licence).
At least they didn´t face obstacles like having to prove their need to get the European licence, they were just required to get their behinds into gear and take the exams.

Considering the recent purchase of TNT by UPS, I wonder what impact this ruling will have on the N registered UPS aircraft based in Europe.....

Mutt

What they bought DHL too now?:E

ADAMF
Exactly my point..

As Finals19 wrote : Exactly the thought i tried to put across.

JAA has a standard,if you wanna enjoy the privileges of a EU license you simply have to do the work/sacrifice for it.
The SELECTION is the license.
In the US,the selection is experience and University degree.

Each system has its own ways.

In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines???

Wrong, the Airline i operate for in China is recognized by the UK CAA and my IR remains current while I work here.

De Facto,

Mate, with all due respect, that type of backward thinking is what created this sorry mess to begin with.
If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved.
If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
Somehow I doubt that.
As I said earlier, you may not give a toss because the issue does not effect you. That's fine, I don't really give a dam. But for those of us that it does, well we can see a better way, and quite frankly we would like to see it come to fruition as it will benefit all of us in the long run.

A waiver and a green card are totally different things, even with a Ryanair waiver, you needed the right to work in Europe.

Mutt

I deal with the problem,I don't just complain about it.In other words, youd better off start studying:E

Again, i deal with it with the resources I have, i don't seat there and whine bout it.
Most probably,however,ICAO holders still have a year exemption.
just enough time to pass those 14 exams:E
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP:p

That's not dealing with the issue, that is simply placating the muppets who pull the strings.
The study is no issue, the $30,000NZ needed to convert the licence, that is the issue.

@TolipsubriA

+1 !

UPS bought DHL?!?!?!
 

It was TNT that UPS bought out for 5.16bn Euros, not DHL....UNLESS I missed the memo from Moon Base and I now fly for UPS without realising!

2W2R :ok:

Weak argument
 

De Facto,

you seem to be pretty full of yourself for passing those 14 exams. As you correctly state in a later post, it's a selection. Nothing more. In fact it's a selection that separates good rote-learners with lots of time on their hands from bad rote-learners with little time on their hands. That's all. I'm really sorry that you apparently feel this to be a factor for your job security.

More important, it's also a selection between people who have EUR 15.000 to convert their license, type ratings and instructors privileges and those who don't. From a standpoint of aviation-safety this second selection is about as relevant as the first one.

BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause!

Unfortunately your argument in favor of the status quo is an intellectually very weak one. It boils down to: "I had to do it, so everybody else has to do it." That's plain silly, even if a case for the EASA-rule could me made on other grounds.

Anyway, if you read my article which iwrbf has linked, you notice that it's mainly about private pilots moving between systems due to job- or life-changes. And if you honestly think, that the current law is adequate or appropriate in these cases, then I would really like to know your reasoning.


best regards,
Jan Brill

100% correct.
 

I read the following article. Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe I though it was well written.

I especially liked the line about the author being able to fly for a living verses growing potatoes because his limited finances going much farther in the US. I think it is a good thing that many of us not born into nobility or extreme wealth have the opportunity to pilot aircraft. I think we, the taxpayer of the United States, made a fine investment in the author. I think his attitude and summary are perfectly correct.

Further I would have to agree with Capt Scribble contribution to the discussion, I reposted it in quotes below. I am afraid there is a very dark side to this movement. It will develop iron jaws and steel teeth.

Competition for jobs Spicejitter? Lol, if only it were so, then perhaps we wouldn't worry about it. Europe requires so many pilots that the cadetships pass them out into the right seat of a 737 after 300 hours total time. Now that is a low hour pilot in a jet. Most Aussies don't get there until well after 1500 hours :}

Europe is a very bureaucratic part of the world, everything has to go through government and their fees. If you want a fishing license the season is over by the time you finish all the loops to get that stupid license. You are better off to fish illegally. In US you just go Walmart pay your 28 usd fee and you are in your way fishing. US is about how good you are in doing a job, EU is about you have a diploma or not and how you doing your job comes second place and that IF.