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Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe

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Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe

Old 9th Apr 2012, 14:14
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Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe

Hi,

I just found a (more or less) short essay (in german and in english) about the new EASA regulations on a german website. Although I'm not sure if this wouldn't be better placed in one of the GA subforums (hint to the moderators: sorry for that, move it as you like), I think this one should be read by just every pilot available :-)

(Note: Please READ the actual essay. Don't judge by its headline, that would miss the point. It's about European bureaucracy and lobbyism killing ICAO achievements of the past. It's just about the new EASA regulations, not about italian phantasy taxes etc...)

Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe

Last edited by Jetdriver; 9th Apr 2012 at 17:09.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 14:28
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I had no idea. Sorry to hear this.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 14:42
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As a european, i went through all required exams to gain my JAA Atpl.All 14 exams and skill test.
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop [email protected]@@@@@@
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 14:44
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I'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States!
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 14:52
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Lets not forget the FTLs they're trying to increase....

Its a disgrace the whole system. I'm not quite sure on how this scenario would play out but imagine your a European pilot, you leave for the sand pit, do 10 years. You've converted your UK or EASA licence to the UAE one. Now its time to come back....I'm guessing you will be in the same situation as any 'foreign' pilot wishing to exercise his skills on European soil?

The only good part about this new licence is TR's stay on your licence for life subject to refresher/revalidation courses.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:00
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Its a disgrace the whole system. I'm not quite sure on how this scenario would play out but imagine your a European pilot, you leave for the sand pit, do 10 years. You've converted your UK or EASA licence to the UAE one. Now its time to come back....I'm guessing you will be in the same situation as any 'foreign' pilot wishing to exercise his skills on European soil?
Not correct, at least my european license (IR)remains valid while i work for an airline overseas.
However the type rating expires after a year but can be reinstated after a jaa skill test in sim of such type.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:14
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North America turning pilots away European pilots

Quote:3barsI'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States






Comments, like the above, are not in line with my experience as a pilot
who has trained and checked out many European,and other, nationals.

Many AirForce pilots from Europe have been trained here as have many private pilots AT A COST FAR LESS THAN THAT CHARGED IN EUROPE, I may add.

Mis-information is worse than not knowing at all !

As far as acceptable piloting standards, ICAO has regulations governing these and, if adhered to by the training countries, pilots should be able to fly in any other country that follows these rules as well.

If airspace has become at a premium, such as in Europe, there still remains the fact that clearance obtained is (should be) the same as in all ICAO standard airspace.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:14
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It has been this way for a little while unfortunately and only shows signs of getting stupider.
Being a Kiwi with the right to reside in Europe, with an Australian, NZ, Fijian, Indo and PNG CPL (these required 2 exams each and about $100 in expenses), a fair amount of experience I find it a bit daft that I cant even fly a C208 here in Europe.
This means that I have no choice but to drag my French wife and son out of Europe in order to provide for them.
Unless of course I sit all the exams - Again. And get basically financially shafted.

De Facto.... Stop bitching? Say that to my wife! You talk of what you know nothing. Shut your trap.

Really is a pity for Europe, as there are a hell of a lot of Canadians, Americans, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis who would love to fly here. Would probably aid the industry having more 2000+ hour pilots around.

Ah well, to bad.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:22
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De Facto.... Stop bitching? Say that to my wife! You talk of what you know nothing. Shut your trap.
One more reason..
Would probably aid the industry having more 2000+ hour pilots around.
And another one...
This means that I have no choice but to drag my French wife and son out of Europe in order to provide for them.
I am in china to provide for my family.. Like i said .,stop [email protected]@@@.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:29
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De Facto.

So you are in China, so what? Many of us work abroad. I myself have done it many times and will continue to do so. The article refers to the difference compared to other ICAO countries. However you are not here (Europe) having to deal with this rubbish.
Being a Euro pilot, you wont have to deal with this when and if you choose to return.

So enlighten us oh mighty one, why the attitude?

Care to expand on these "reasons"?

or prefer to stay with sweeping general statements?
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:38
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Adam F...

I flew in north America for several years mate - before that I had a UK PPL in the UK but ultimately gained a Canadian CPL/ME/IR and worked there.

I now work back in Europe and converted to the JAA (EASA) CPL/ME/IR. I went into it eyes wide open, and yes it cost me a significant amount. Its no good complaining about it - as others have said, it is what it is, its perfectly clear what is required. You have a choice.

As for flying on type in Europe (your C208) there is a significant difference in (rather complex) procedures in EASA land (largely due to an umbrella structure that encompasses many different countries, languages etc) and this needs to be instructed. It was way easier to take my old licence to Canada than vice versa.

Granted EASA is bureaucratic and expensive, but it is what it is.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:41
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The stupidity of these new EASA licences is endless. Listen. A certain large UK PLC operating a couple of private King Air 200's decided many years ago, for safety reasons, to operate them 2 crew with 2 fully rated pilots. Under CAA/JAR licencing this was fine and dandy. Along come EASA and say: " You cannot do that as the King Air is a single pilot certficated aircraft and you do not have a multi crew type rating on your ATPL". No dispensations are alowed so the pilots had to do a Multi crew type rating (HS125), get it endorsed on their licences in order to be legal to fly the King Air multi crew. A perfect Catch 22. If I had not been involved in their traning and heard it from the pilots I would not have believed it. To pay for all this BS the CAA have increased my AOC fees by 25% this year. No wonder I am loosing so much business to M registered charter aircraft that the CAA say do not exist.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:49
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Finals 19.

Quite right, we do have the choice. I also came here eyes wide open knowing that id have to take I hiatus or spend what I don't have. My issue is not with the fact that I have to do this extra (if my original post sounded like a whinging togie, I do apologise, not my intention). My issue is WHY. This is what the article was alluding to.
If ICAO is being ignored, then what's the point? The training in NZ is no different than that in the UK. So why does the EU continue to make it difficult/expensive. It is counter productive.

If we just keep quiet, say yes sir and don't question the issue, it will not change.

I understand that many out there don't want it to change.

I pity them. Because then every nation will start playing the same dam game.

And that will damage aviation. Not just in the EU but everywhere that decides to play this game
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 15:58
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If I operate a N registered bus jet in the EU, why would I have to get an EU licence, when the AOC is American.......not buying it.

In fact, let them go ahead with this ruling and see how long it lasts, the industry needs 20 000 pilots a year for the next 20 years, good luck to them - twats!
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 16:09
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kingpost;

20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!

I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!

Further I believe there came a ruling EASA, that N-reg pilots residing in EU land, is required to have EASA licence! At least there was rumours of this some time ago!

So what will it cost me to go over to FAA land, and convert my JAA IR to an FAA IR? I was quoted for getting PPL issued, would be looking at around 1000, the IR re-validation would be less? Just wondering, not that I am considering to do it!

Everything in EU land is more expensive than the US, but is it really that great difference in the end?
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 16:32
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Not correct, at least my european license (IR)remains valid while i work for an airline overseas.
However the type rating expires after a year but can be reinstated after a jaa skill test in sim of such type.
Wrong! If you don't keep current you will loose it all after seven years. Flying outside of easa will not count.
It has always been the case that a European license was more difficult to obtain, the Americans make it easier to get an initial license but regulate things in a different way. No real change!

Last edited by BALLSOUT; 9th Apr 2012 at 17:10.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 16:36
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EASA = SHIT. No two ways about it.
It used to be that I had plans for the big lottery win along the lines of: buy Spitfire, buy Aston Martin etc etc.
Now it's: set up an organistaion to identify, pursue and prosecute all relevant EASA personnel for gross incompetence, criminal negligence etc etc and GET RID of the bastards. Then get Britain out of the EU.
Rant only just starting.........
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 16:49
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@DB6 - go for it mate, let's hear the rest! ;-)
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 17:17
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Are we to be totally controlled by the EU?...is this the end of my career?

It was with a degree of shock that I read about the new rulings being ratified by some faceless wonders on Brussels....there has been rumours of somewthing like this happening for years, but now some Back room boys have finally got it all together, and are enforcing this legislation upon us. I am quite sure that many of us with JAA/EASA licences have in some way looked down from our lofty positions, having passed our ATP exams.....at the seemingly inferior FAA equivalent....and yes, flying in Europe does have its challenges, so a European Licence may be deemed necessary???....

I have been flying for 30 years, and have held a CAA ATPL and an FAA ATPL, currently have 9000 hours on type of the Corporate Jet that I fly. Many Corporate Jets are operated on the US "November" register, or on various smaller Registered Authorities for primarily Tax reasons of the owners.....so to fly these aircraft, we have to comply to this requirement. Over the years I have unfortunately not kept up with my European Licences, due to cost and availability of Sim instructors. Also a minor Health issue, now renders me unable to hold a JAA Class 1 Medical Cetificate, but I have no problem meeting the requirements of the FAA Class 1......now, thanks to some chinless wonders in the European Parliament, I now have two years to end my Career in Aviation, at the age of 50. The European Union is not even a signatory to ICAO regulations.....presumably, because it is not actually a Ratified State.....or am I missing something.....has the United States of Europe been born and I missed it????

Unless I now resign from my position, (held for 15 years) and seek a job elsewhere in the World, with other countries that are ICAO signatories, I will be facing a very bleak future indeed. Kids about to start University, and No Flight Crew Licence is not a place I had worked so hard to achieve...

Can anyone tell me just who, when, why and what, has allowed the so called European Aviation Safety Agency, to start controlling peoples livelihoods, without any form of discussion, no grounding on any element of safety issues, just a European, self satisfied, bureacratically driven, unilateral sense of delusionary grandeur.....

I am hoping that not only can I hear from other Flight Crew in the same position, but also from all Flightcrew, who will support their fellow Pilots, against this tyrannical decision from the EU.
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Old 9th Apr 2012, 18:13
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The aim of the EU is to weald total control of the population by imposing its undemoratic directives upon peoples and industries. The leaders are interested only in their own aims, those of the citizens do not count. We now have EASA which degrades the CAA to a gofor and paperwork executive. Now that this monolith is established local concerns do not have a chance of being aired. Citizens of the old USSR will recognise this regime immediately, sadly we missed killing it at birth.
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