What I have been told is that at least to a degree this is in response to a request from the FAA.

European bureaucracy at work !
 

Quote from AOPA circular;

The new rules will have a potentially massive effect on American flying schools that cater to European students. For years, Europeans having been coming to the United States to earn U.S. pilot certificates at prices thousands of dollars less than what it would have cost had they learned in Europe. Then they return to Europe and fly N-registered aircraft. Now, American flight schools will presumably have to alter their curricula to conform to EASA standards.

My comment;

This obviously is going to place undue cost burdens on NA flying schools
having to change to meet EASA standards.
This is going to cost the European pilots, and NA as well. What a bureaucrtic FU !:mad::mad::mad:

No I am not, however i did what my license authority required and it took time and hard work.I took the issue by the horns and succeeded.
A friend of mine did the atpl theory while working at the post office during the day,studying at night,passed all modules in 12 months,with the money he made during that year he started the conversion from his FAA ATPL (was an instructor for GA in the USA) and passed all his licenses.
Was he WHINING about it?yeah maybe but he DID IT and got a job later where he wanted to live..
Now i call this dedication, and my friends you need a LOT of it if you wanna make it in this industry.
Airlines don't like moaners,they like hard workers/achievers.
It was the choice of those who left to get their license outside the EU for reasons of their choice(easier to get,cheaper,quicker or other) but they knew they would have to convert when and if they decided to come back.
A BIT OF FINANCIAL WORK/SACRIFICE,PLANNING AHEAD,STRONG WILL...and anyone can do it.
[quote]BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause![QUOTE]
I sat all of the 14.I will ask my school for a refund then:E
Not at all, I wanted to get back to europe,I did what i had to do under the rules of the licensing department,unless they are changed,i am merely telling those who wish to do the same,well to start studying and saving..otherwise in 20 years they ll still be in the same chair whining on their computer, while the others ..well just moved on.
yes i did and i can tell you flying in the UK airspace is quite different than flying in TEXAS or FLORIDA.:rolleyes:

Hi.

@de_facto: This whole license thing is not about YOU. It's about European Licensing. I have understood now that you chose your life in a deliberate sense, I see that you're a great aviator and I see that you're a patriotic European. But this is not about you, as I said two lines up. I won't insinuate some kind of Alexithymia on your side, but I would like you to think about the people who are really battered by this pseudo protectionism.

No offense, just my wish that you take a glimpse beyond your demonstrated horizon.

Really? Do they have different laws of physics?

I learned to fly at KDWH in Texas and flew extensively out of EGTK and in the greater London airspace (VFR & IFR), did not notice much difference, both places were friendly, except for all kind of fees being charged in the UK.

You seem to enjoy theoretical studies and written exams. As a suggestion, you could go to India and take all the DGCA ALTP written examinations over there as well. I am being told they are even tougher that the ones at EASA.

Though, it has been recognized as a fact, that these so called involved and expensive EASA or DGCA written exams do not produce better pilots...

This whole thing is nothing to do with safety which some people don't seem to realise.

It has been brewing for years.

Its all about a group of people giving the middle finger to the goverments and saying stick your rules up your arse I have found a way round them, I prefer these ones.

The loophole is now being shut.

As for policing it, all it takes is for every N reg to be met for a couple of months and the crew if not able to produce a JAR license or a green card/US passport get thrown in the nick and the aircraft impounded until its all sorted out.

You have been out manoveured by pro politicians end of story.

Apart from a minority who have been using the loophole nobody really cares one little bit. Some of us are pleased that the loophole is being shut. But are not pleased to see folk loosing their jobs. But you get that when loopholes shut. Whole industrys have shut down when they shut loopholes. Not much in the news about all the folk in the channels islands that are out of work now the VAT excemption has been closed.

@mad jock: There will be a day in the near future when you'll realize that your uber-trustworthy pro-politicians just did a trick on YOU... Sadly but true...

I already know that the EU is a pile of self serving :mad:.

I do know though that if I use a loophole I have to expect it to be shut at some point.

If I get in at the beginning I can expect a few years out of it, if its when it has become popular I can expect to get alot less time using it.

Crying about it post closure won't make them open it again. N reg is a victim of its own success in europe. When it was only a few it wasn't worth the bother to shut it. Now with growing numbers using it they can't ignore it any more. The EASA :mad: has just given them a good excuse to get it done.

MD11Engineer touched upon it in post#26. I am trying to look at this issue from a different perspective. Yes, it's quite disgraceful the way EASA tries to protect the European aviation market from foreigners. It's quite clear it has nothing to do with safety at all. On the other hand, US has its own ways of protecting the job market from foreigners stealing their jobs. I am European that used to work in aviation in US. Just because I had an "essential skill" that could not be done by an American, my company could support me with a favorable visa that allowed me the right to stay and work. But it did not come without cost… in administrative, lawyer, traveling expenses we're talking about $5000 dollars… and it had to be renewed every second year. And despite all the money that was paid I was restricted to work for the company I was with at the time. I could go on and talk about the hassle to get a green card to allow me to work unrestricted. At the same time I have many European friends who have imported American girlfriends to Europe where they're now living and working, relatively troublesome less. We could protect ourselves through aviation, immigration or labour laws.

I don't think it's quite that simple; the rules are based on whether or not the operator is actually based in the EU, not the nationality of the crew as such. Pretty obvious in the case of someone stepping out of a privately owned Cessna who lives in the UK but for larger aircraft it might not be so clear were exactly the "operator" resides. How that will be enforced and whether or not people come up with elaborate ways to "base" their aircraft outside of Europe or just bite the bullet and comply remains to be seen...

@Adam
Where do you live, to make such a statement? Pull off your pink glasses. Hundreds of European pilots, most of them having k's of hours on "big" jets, are forced to work abroad, because the Pilotsmarket in Europe is a mess.The market is down :ugh:
It's even difficult to get jobs where you just could fly for food.

Correct me if I am wrong and tell us names. e.g. I am desperately looking for a job in Good Old Europe - since years - :{

Hope you like sitting in a cell until they do sort out where the operator resides.

I think its another cunning ploy.

If you manage to get round the operator recidence thing they will then say its a AOC flight. And to prove its not an AOC flight it will bring the residency into question.

Alll they need to do is ground the aircraft subject to investigation for 2-3 days every time they land or even once or twice a month and then having your own transport is useless because you could never garantee it would be available when you wanted it.

Hi a321,

I was waiting to see someone to jump on that. Over embellished a touch in retrospect, agreed (sorry), but at risk of sounding like a tosser, I wanted to see what would be said.

Yes, there is a market down turn. But its not a constant. The average is still upward trending. Pax numbers are consistently up across the board.
Yes, some carriers are reducing output in order to weather the storm.
Have a look at these 2 links.
The economic downturn will reverse, as it always does. We cannot continually blame the worlds woes on this.

European airline traffic and load factors up in Sep-2011, but outlook mixed for major carriers | CAPA

4.8% Passenger Growth in 2011 for Europe's Regional Airlines

As you can see, it aint rosy reading, but its not depressing either.
Loads of new aircraft continue to be purchased all over Europe,
Boeing are expecting a 20% increase of aircrew in Europe due solely on orders over the next 18 years. (A while I know). But focusing on ''now'' in regards to this issue is a mistake. The wider implications over a protracted period - say the next 20 years, are far more wide ranging

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo...n_outlook.html

If there is a gluttony of pilots, then why are the new JAA sponsored courses in NZ, Australia and America training record numbers of students? Because there is a demand for them, that's why. Why the airlines prefer them and not multi thousand hour aircrew is a different subject.

No Rose tinted glasses here my friend, all many of us are asking for is a fair and impartial opportunity to remain open so that we CAN look for work without blowing $30k in conversion costs.

On a personal note though a321, I wish you best of luck with the job hunt. I've heard rumours of Thomas Cook hiring, as well as Virgin and Jet2 recently. But there will be others who know better on that count. ;)

Oh yeah, I live in France :\

Like I said we'll wait and see what happens. As one of the most prolific posters on the Private Flying forum pointed out, it would appear that most European states (unlike the UK) have not decided to delay implementation of the licencing compliance requirement unitl 2014 for foreign registered EU based aircraft and therefore as of 8th April they are apparently flying illegally if not in possession of EASA licences and if based in a state that has not delayed implementation. However there is little evidence that in the short term there will be any sanctions taken against them...I look forward to hearing the details of any cases that emerge. :oh:

Like the Italian private aircraft tax for example there is often a delay between a law actually being past and the enforcers on the ground actually being aware of it and being in a position to enforce it.

I would hope however that simply being an EU citizen, flying an N-reg in the EU on FAA papers would not, in of itself, be enough grounds for arrest/and or impounding of the aircraft. I would have thought that the authorities would need strong evidence that the aircraft was actually EU based as well to take action.

Ultimately what I think it will come down to is the inclination of individual member states to crack down on suspected offenders...something again which will be interesting to see. Who knows, this could be a massive non issue, personally I just went and got an EASA IR... bit more of a pain for ATPL or indeed (as the article points out) for people who are only planning on staying in the EU for a few years.

I take it you have never been ramp checked in France on a Friday afternoon. They are more than happy to put you in a cell over the weekend until things are sorted out.

It was the same with the VAT certs. If there is a high chance they know they are going to find something they will head over. They will prob leave it 3-4 months to see what moves and then start targeting.

Bit of a bitch though if you get pulled in Italy and then get hammered for the tax after you have sorted things out.

Britain doesn't have that many spot checks and was more than likely quite fly with getting the 2014. Let all the rest fight the fight and by 2014 most of the flak should have died down.

Sounds like you're speaking from personal experience...;)

You're right though I have not have had the pleasure of such an ordeal thankfully.

Please see thread on EASA monopoly in the Biz Jets forum
 

Should there be any FAA N-reg drivers or owners out there who are in a similar position to myself, then please PM me, and we can talk further about this, and whether, as mentioned earlier in this thread, there is any remote possibility of bringing a Discriminatory case against the EU/EASA.

Throwing stones
 

Well in oz so far I have worked with Germans,Italians,French,Indians,Argentinians etc. All had the legal right to live and work here be it through marriage,naturalization or a birth parent. If every Aussie with a license to fly who had a euro passport turned up in Europe tomorrow you would have at least a thousand. We have better opportunities here so don't worry. Please stop banging the drum about all non euros taking your jobs,it's boring and BS.

Uhhh, no, you did not pay one penny for the "honor of flying in American Skies". The US does not charge "navigation" fees or communications fees, or clearance fees, or any other fees having to do with flying an airplane. Very few airports charge landing fees for general aviation aircraft, and those that do aren't the sort you'd normally go while training.

What you paid was to private businesses to rent aircraft, buy fuel, and pay instructors.

You may have paid some fees indirectly to the US for you written exams.

Any you know why you were over in the US paying those people?

For one reason and one reason only; because it was one hell of a lot *less* expensive than the same thing at home.

So, spare us the "paid thru the nose" drivel.

Darn right every single word A Squared says.

I dont think this will last many years...at least i hope not. It's ridiculous! Where is Europe going to get all their pilots? Surely after 10 years in europe, with General aviation not THAT big, and coupled with a tight economic situation, their conversions will go something to that of a FAA/TC conversion.

UGH I want to go to Europe and fly NOW! not later :ugh:

Vested Interest
 

The EASA/JAA/CAA regulations are designed to secure vested interest but to dress that up with spurious "safety" regional concerns that are transparent to anyone with a grain of common sense.

I gained a UK ATPL many years ago and worked in the UK for 15 years before being forced, by redundancy, to move overseas. Throughout my time abroad the UK CAA would always recognise my overseas jet time and would allow me to re-validate my licence on my return to the UK.

I now find that under the jackboot of EASA, because I have not exercised the privileges of my UK licence for 7 years it has become invalid and if I wish to fly in the UK I must take all the exams again.

The UK CAA is now no more than a regional office of EASA and the authority to re-validate my ATPL has been taken from them and surrendered to their masters in Brussells If I needed one reason to get Britain out of the EU this would be a good start. As it happens I can think of more than one.

This is surely an erosion of our basic human rights as British Subjects - this issue needs taking up at the highest political level.

I agree BIG MACH - the sooner UK leaves the EU the better.

@MagicMilkshake: To be honest, that won't be a problem at all. Europes pilot schools churn out a huge surplus of new CPLs each year. European airlines have a long standing tradition and training experience to take on pilots right out of flight school, in the past usually out of their own program, nowadays in many cases third party providers.

On top of that European Company’s making big bucks with student pilots; they charge up to and more than 100’000 Euros for training and after that they put them in the right seat of an A320/B737 with a total flight experience of about 300h for a B-scale salary.

It’s pure BS. If it was a safety issue no US carrier would be allowed to operate in European airspace. Next thing they ask tourists to get a European driver’s license before they can rent a car.

I am also one of the guys who would have never been able to fly if it wasn’t for the USA. I am very grateful for that and I’m sick and tired of Europe. Unfortunately I am not welcome to life in the US.

The next question is about currency; does an EU pilot who is operating an N reg aircraft with an EASA license has to stay current under FAA (2 profchecks)?

Is it fair to say, if no non-euro pilots are welcomed in Euro, it should be the same in other continents for Euro pilots too.

So, am I right in saying, Euro pilots should be moving back from to EU?Europe from e.g. middle east (raking in $$$ tax free), etc.

Nice one I suppose.

I guess I have to look for a job in Artic!
My future is bleak...

No pilot is really welcome in Europe. The :mad: who run the system are totally unaccountable and run the system any way they see fit. Their system is not fit for purpose. Who can you complain to? No one! The slime who make the rules work for (the highest scum of all) an EU commissioner - who is unelected. Our system is nothing to be proud of. It's the epitome of a totalitarian bureaucracy.

With any luck they'll all get caught out in an office fire or food poisoning.

Let's consider why ICAO standards were promulgated in the first place. To ensure some kind of standards in pilot training,one assumes. Once a pilot attains an ICAO licence, it should be recognized by all signatory countries' authorities. Seems simple enough.

As for the US, many airlines send their cadets for training there because a fine weather training area is easy to find, and costs are much lower than in the EU,as stated elsewhere.

Lufthansa has been training such cadets as their source of pilots for years. Quite successfully too, it would appear.

Because of these factors, some American Universities and FTO's tailored courses to train JAR cadets, but these fell by the wayside during the economic downturn. Now, they will have to retool to train to EASA standards.Can we expect training to return to Europe with its weather and expense considerations? Don't bet on that.:ugh:

EASA ops, the new world standard . . .
 

Trouble is that there are more foreign pilots of more foreign air carriers operating into EU airspace and into EU airports than there are "EU trained EASA pilots."

The EASA boys at Bruxelles must be :mad: all over themselves . . . just imagining the horror of so many non EASA trained pilots operating their foreign registered big jets into EASA turf. :{

The Bruxelles boys already must be dabbling with the idea of requiring the rest of the world's pilots to obtain EASA licenses. :ooh:

Spent 40 years of a career operating heavy jets into and through Europe.

Until you understand that the EASA rules are really an action in restraint of trade, then you don't get it.

Apparently, even the UK CAA [and/or it's predecessors] accepted that with 2,500hrs [?] jet command in a/c >5,700kg you might not be the ill-trained aviation moron which the Regs assumed.

Rant over!!

G'day ;)

"So if my licence is inferior, why am I allowed to use it to fly a Hong Kong registered B747 into an airport such as LHR?".

That was a question asked of the CAA recently. Not suprisingly, they had no answer. It's all about making more money out of pilots.

This whole EASA thing is an utter farce in my opinion.

99% of the users don't want it but it is being forced on us!

We need to complain loud and clear to our political "servants".

Why on earth we didn't stick to (UK) national licences beggars belief.

We're now snowed under with a mountain of bureaucratic nonsense (with no accountability for those imposing same), a "system" which is unfit for purpose, government officials who haven't got a clue what all this stuff means, not to mention it all costing the users more money as well as wasted time!

A licence is just a bit of paper that says the holder is qualified to exercise a privilege - WHY has it been made so complicated?

Top Dogs At EASA Are Non Pilots . . .
 

EASA Executive Director: Patrick Goudou NON PILOT

Patrick Goudou was born in 1950 in Paris, France. After graduating from the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, he went on to train at the Ecole Superieure de l'Aeronautique et de l' Espace in Toulouse with a specialization in aero-engines.
In 1975 he started his professional career at the French General Delegation for Armaments (Delegation Generale pour l'Armement - DGA), where he worked primarily in the aeronautical sector. For ten years he was responsible for testing civil and military aero-engines at the DGA Engines Test Centre at Saclay. He was then appointed to a series of management posts in economic control and industrial strategy, with particular emphasis on the aerospace industry and the question of its restructuring to European level. In 1997 he became Director for Commercial and International Affairs at the French shipyard DCN.
At the beginning of 2002 he was appointed Chief Executive of the French Aeronautical Maintenance Agency (Service de la maintenance aeronautique - SMA), a body responsible for engineering, industrial maintenance and repairs to aircraft, engines and aircraft equipment, as well as for the design and production of aeronautical parts.
He has been Executive Director of the European Aviation Safety Agency since the Agency's start of operations in 2003.
He is married and has three children.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Approvals & standardisation Director - Trevor Woods NON PILOT
Trevor Woods commenced his career as an apprentice at British Aerospace. He graduated in Aeronautical Engineering and was later awarded a Master of Business Administration. Following his graduation, he worked in the Military Aircraft Division of British Aerospace as a Future Projects Engineer in the development of supersonic VSTOL aircraft.
He moved to the UK CAA in the design certification of aircraft and over time covered all aircraft categories from balloons to supersonic transport leading both national and international certification projects including JAA certification of the Next Generation of Boeing 737 aircraft. Through this he was engaged in the development of working arrangements with FAA that encompassed cooperative and concurrent certification along with what was then a new approach to determining the applicable rules for derivative aircraft.
Positions that he held in the UK CAA included Head of UK Aeroplanes and Rotorcraft Certification, and Head of Strategy and Policy for initial and continuing airworthiness. During this period he was an active participant in the JAA Rulemaking Sectorial Team and subsequently the EASA Advisory Group of National Authorities (AGNA). He was also very active in the ICAO Airworthiness Panel which completely overhauled Annex 8 of the Convention.
When EASA was formed he played a central role in the UK CAA’s transition programme to accommodate the initial Basic EASA Regulation. This included organisational restructuring, the transfer of responsibilities to EASA and the work that the UK CAA carried out on behalf of the Agency.
In January 2008 he was appointed as Chief Operating Officer of Air Safety Support International. This is a subsidiary company of the UK CAA providing air safety support and regulation for the UK Overseas Territories.
He is married and has three children.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rulemaking Director: Jules A.J.M. Kneepkens NON PILOT
Jules Kneepkens was born in 1955 and is a Dutch national. After graduating from the Utrecht University in Social Sciences with a focus on International Political Relations and Development Co-operation (University of Amsterdam), Mr Kneepkens started his professional career in 1983 as a project manager in development aid and became soon the Chairman of a secular European network of non-governmental organisations in Brussels.
From 1990 to 1991 he was working for a member of the Dutch parliament. After that he joined the Ministry of Transport, Public Works and Water Management first as Head of the Management and Infrastructure Strategy Division and as of 1996 as Head of the Environment and Country Planning in the Ministry's Civil Aviation Division.
In 2002 he was appointed Director Civil Aviation and International Affairs of the Dutch Directorate of Civil Aviation and Transport where he was responsible for safety, security, international aviation policy, environmental issues, air traffic management and privatisation of airports. At the beginning of 2007 Mr Kneepkens assumed the position of Director General Civil Aviation of the Kingdom of Belgium. In both positions he was a member of the EASA Management Board and held functions as Vice-President of Eurocontrol, board member of the JAA-Board, Chair of the European Security Institute EASTI, Advisory Board member of the Safety Training Institute EASTO in the Netherlands, Chair of the Steering Group Functional Airspace Block Central Europe, Chair of 'International Financial Facility Safety' (IFFAS) established by ICAO.
Jules Kneepkens was appointed Rulemaking Director of the European Aviation Safety Agency as of 1 September 2008 by the Agency's Management Board.
He is married and has two children
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Certification Director: Dr. Norbert Lohl NON PILOT
Dr. Norbert Lohl is a German national. After his University Education in Physics between 1969 and 1976 he started his professional career at the German Aeronautics Research Center DLR on Flight Guidance and Navigation where he made his Doctor-Engineer degree in aeronautics. In 1982 he joined the German Aviation Authority Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (LBA) starting as Project Certification Manager in the Transport Category Airplanes Division. From 1990 he acted as Head of the LBA Regional Office Berlin and became in 1993 Head of the LBA Engine/Equipment Type Certification Division. From 1998 he was Deputy of the LBA Director and Head of the LBA Administration Department. In 2001, he became Head of the LBA Commercial Operators Department. Dr Norbert Lohl has been Director of Certification at EASA since the beginning of 2004.

I have an Aussie ATPL, and a British Passport, and considered Gaining a JAA ATPL for one day I might like to work over there. After finding out the Cost and BS involved with doing it. Not interested.

A mate of mine is a highly experienced (43 years) heavy jet engineer with extensive B777 experience (In Australia). Everything is good until one day they start going on about him not having a "B1" rating on his licence, (after they start transitioning to a euro type licencing system) and therefore not qualified to sign off on some AC.

If thats the way they see it, why does CASA allow JAA/FAA holders to come in and do 2 small exams, pay a few $$ and essentially get handed an ATPL.

I have managed to hang onto my UK ATPL and convert it into a JAR ATPL while working overseas, but it has been a struggle. It was actually the CAA with their interpretation of the JAR FCLs which were a problem. JAR FCLs said I could keep my old UK rating (with restrictions), the CAA said "no". But now EASA FCL says "yes" and this is enshrined in EASA FCL and the European legistlation which enables it.

I don't have a desire to return to Europe. It's marginalising itself, especially with it's common currency which is rapidly heading towards "Andrex" staus. But my worling ATPL is a validation of my original CAA ATPL, and I have to keep that (or replacement) current if I want to move location for a future employment and another validation.

The notion that I have to take a load of exams on nonesence such as lattitude nuts in a DI because i haven't had a JAR IR for 7 years is nonesence. I have a perfectly good IR from an authority which is at least as demanding as the UK CAA, and I renew it every six months. It's like asking a doctor to retake his Biology GCSE on return to the UK after working elsewhere for 7 years.

Vote
 

The time is coming when there will be a IN/OUT vote on the EU and EASA wil certainly factor into many pilots decisions when that day comes.

The lack of democracy and the breathtaking arrogance and costs associated with all these things as stated above is becoming more evident day by day as the whole system impodes

There just dont get the concept of democracy; no one voted for EASA and its rules, no members of the public voted, no passengers voted; no pilot voted for these rules. They (EU/EASA) are UNDEMOCRATIC - THAT WILL BE THEIR UNDOING ...

The political climate is changing rapidly:D

This thread is completely ridiculous.

Who wants to make us believe an European pilot can go to north america with his pilot licence and find a job, like that?
He would have to get a green card (citizenship would be better), then get the appropriate licences.
Well, that's exactly the same in Europe, and that's not really new.

This thread is what we can call a non event.

It seems somebody woke up this morning with a headache or something wrong and decided to write some bullcr@p.

Europe wants to protect the jobs here against oversees pilots, with this easa-thing???? Bullsh*t, cause if i want to work in france as a european citizen, i simply dont get in because i dont speak french. The same goes for Germany. The same goes for Scandinavia etc. Do u think that europe is reacting in these cases??? Hello, europe, where aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you???????