BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress
 

BALPA will be at next weeks TUC Congress. They are moving against pilots being used as guinea pigs for the UK ID Card scheme:

Well done chaps! Hope this wakes the Home Secretary up.

Link to the agenda: http://www.tuc.org.uk/congress/tuc-15221-f0.pdf

Good for BALPA.....I'll certainly be lobbying my own union to support the motion....
Some of the other Unions need kicking......And yes I am kicking hard....:ok:

I support the principle of ID cards, especially if it makes it difficult/impossible for illegal entrants to enter our fair land!

It is about time we adopted some of the American practices on immigration and stopped allowing absolutely anybody in. If ID cards assist that, then I am all for them.

So come on pilots, prove the system is workable not an abject refusal to co-operate.

manrow

So you are worried about illegal immigrants entering "our fair land"...sorry if I missed something but even now you need a passport to enter the UK through official channels so what difference does the ID card make? As far as us adopting American practices AFAIK even post 9/11 our US Cousins have yet to adopt ID cards.

Ultimately why should pilots, Cabin Crew and all other airside workers be the guinea pigs used to "prove" this scheme is workable? We have already ID's, we're already screened/vetted, and probably also carry passports every time we go to work. Unlike most of the UK population we are easily traced and easily tracked ( swipe in anyone). No doubt a refusal to carry these new cards we will lead to us being out of work....and in the meantime it's impact on the illegal immigration you seem to be worried about will be what precisely ??

If you really want to control illegal Immigration then I suggest you look at EU/UK Border Control, rather than giving me yet another bleedin piece of plastic I'll have to carry in my wallet. In the meantime you're obviously keen on the idea - why don't you volunteer for the trials - and persuade some of our MPs to do the same...:ugh:

If you believe that HM Government can make this work you're dangerously naive.....

manrow:

'Papers Please!'

Shouldn't that be Ihren Papieren, bitte?

Over the weekend a Polish baggage handler was arrested for stealing from hold luggage at BHX - no doubt he'd have been given an ID card based on him already holding airport ID:ugh:


Whatever happened to 5 year checkable work history/CRO checks?:=




S78

Foreign nationals are not required to undergo CRC procedures. The CRC is designed to raise £50 from every conceivable UK national to run a quango in a Scottish marginal constituency. It has no value.

Whilst BALPA discuss this, I hope they will be raising the issue of the Treaty Of Rome, which we appear to have discovered to be a can of worms.:uhoh:

Citizen Smith
 

I'll seriously consider supporting a National Identity card if it will be developed by private enterprise for Government and incorporate the following. (I've used Australian terms, but hopefully they translate OK)

Passport
Employment ID and security access code
All credit, debit, charge and in-store cards
Medicare ( Health Insurance )
Health , Pension and Senior Citizen entitlement stuff
Driving, flying, yachting and related licences
Social Club and Motoring Organisation membership

Put that lot on a single card and you will get my attention.

Otherwise forget it. It's just another card, and I have too many now.:sad:

I have no political objection to a national ID card as all the information that will be on it is already held on one file or another by the government. The big strength of this is that a number of different computer systems have to be entered to access the data.

By having the data all held in one place it only takes ONE computer to be hacked into for ALL your personal information to fall into the wrong hands.

It is on purly practal grounds that I object to the ID card, in my view it is an expensive reduction in security by putting all the eggs in one basket.

I respect the views of those who see this as a civil liberty's issue and fully support the BALPA stand but for me the overriding case for stopping the ID card is the ability of the government to guarantee the security of the information on the data base.

A and C, It doesn't take a computer to be hacked. How many computers, disc or pen drives been mislaid in the last year? Should the person who "found" the said item want to sell it for profit.... Lots of info has gone missing.

This is like reducing the drink driving limit from 0.08 to 0.05. Maybe it's a good idea if they can enforce/operate it properly, but if they can't enforce/operate it now, why will introducing something more limiting be of benefit?

ID cards are like locked doors that only keep honest people out, they will be a hinderance for the people who don't need them in the first place.

Chips

I'm not in favour of these ID cards as I believe they'll do nothing to improve border control, airport security or anything else I can think of.

I might reconsider my position if they were introduced first for members of the Houses of Commons and Lords followed by all local Government Office Holders and finally all employees of National and Local Government departments and agencies.


There... those conditions should ensure that I never have to reconsider my position.



At the back of my mind throughout all this is an uneasy feeling that we are walking eyes wide open into George Orwell's future vision .....




Congratulations to BALPA and I'll certainly be trying to get my union to take the same line.

Just been announced on the local news that BHX will be one of the first airports where these ID cards will be issued:mad:


Being local news it was short on detail:hmm:, but the question is : who pays for them?

Me?
My employer?
The Airport authority?
The government?



S78

Big Brother & his mates
 

The other concern here is that our own government HMRC has been involved in "stealing" private banking records and details by paying bribes to employees. Not really interested in getting into the rights and wrongs of going after tax dodgers but it does set a moral precedent. Now the question is...... dear uncle Putin, Bush or any other hatter decides they also want info and find a suitable candidate to grease? Splash out the dollars and you've got the lot. And forget about data security. Data is stored for access and as the old saying goes, many ways to skin a cat. And they are yet to prove that an ID system will actually improve aviation safety and trust they never will. They will try the old...."ah.. erm ... in the interests of security we cannot divulge where it may help"... nice one boys and girls. Passport & Licence current pass etc... work just fine. Please would the good folk in the DFT and home office just take a long holiday and enjoy their pensions without bothering us.

Skyloone

The ID card scheme is good for the Civil Service. It will enable further staff to be employed who owe their jobs and thus their allegiance to the government. It will enable Civil Servants to plan continual expansion, more staff, more responsibilities, more career path, higher inflation-proofed pensions, etc. There will be significant revenue from the scheme but the Civil Servants will expect to spend all that on their own administration of it.

The fact that it hacks everyone else off and is useless in control of security is neither here nor there.

WHBM, brilliant : reminds me of a Yes Minister episode, the one where the hospital was deemed up and running because it had 500 administrators and no patients. Plus ca change......

Looking in my wallet i have half a dozen cards, so whats another,i have nothing to hide.
If it keeps all the undesirables out of this country and lowers my taxes-great.

But it wont. And when did you last hear of taxes being lowered?

Amber One - it just shows how we have been conditioned by this government to assume that high taxation is the only way.

It seems a change of government here would ensure the death of ID cards, which don't frighten me, and also a reduction in overall taxation if you believe the noises coming from the Conservative party!

>>I support the principle of ID cards, especially if it makes it difficult/impossible for illegal entrants to enter our fair land!<<

>>I'll seriously consider supporting a National Identity card if it will be developed by private enterprise for Government and incorporate the following.<<

>>I have no political objection to a national ID card as all the information that will be on it is already held on one file or another by the government.<<

>>Looking in my wallet i have half a dozen cards, so whats another,i have nothing to hide.<<

I am British and my family have always lived in these islands. It is up to me when I choose to identify myself to the Government. Furthermore, I do not want my life recorded and tracked on a so called 'National Identity Register'.

Under these circumstances I refuse to have an ID Card.

Do you think it appropriate that the Government should:

A. Impose a civil penalty?

B. Refuse me an airside pass?

C. Refuse me a passport?

It's not the cards themselves, it's the associated massive database of information about us all, and the inevitability that "show me your ID card" will become a stock in trade for every council jobsworth everytime they want to put you in your place.

I have just visited the STASI museum in Leipzig, now I know where HMG got some of its ideas from!

Well said, Sir. Can I join your army?

Can anyone identify the point from which we ceased to be a free society?

It started in May 1997

I
 

I agree too

This system will never work.

Passports are already supposed to do this - they don't.

People travel on fake passports - so the Government think this system is fool-proof? Easy - the Bad Guys will get people working on the inside. This system will be subverted like all the others. It's a question of when, not if.

The only issue is the sheer amount of data that will be held on file (and none of it will do anything to increase security in any form). The Government has shown over and over and over again it is completely incapable of handling such a system, so on that basis alone, it should not be permitted.

"Ihren Paperien, Bitte" indeed!

The very fact they don't even do security checks on certain air-side workers (foreigners) because it is "too difficult" shows how much they really care about security. If it is too difficult to check their background - you don't employ them!!! To hell with political correctness/anti-discrimination laws - they're unsuitable candidates.

:mad::mad::mad:

>> and the inevitability that "show me your ID card" will become a stock in trade for
>> every council jobsworth everytime they want to put you in your place.

Councils have far too much power. I think it is decentralized Government by stealth IMHO. They're looking at giving them yet more powers, this time to check your e-mails and web history (in the name of crime prevention/detection, of course)! :mad: I hope they have fun with my encrypted e-mail! :cool:

ECAM Actions.

I had 2 colleagues-
1. Jim, Welsh caucasian, born in India to english parents whilst father based in India.
2. Raj, born in UK to Indian parents with UK passports
Invariably, Jim was 'checked' by passport control, whilst Raj was not, based on place of birth!

To fly inside the UK I prefer to carry a £7 CitizenCard, rather than my more valuable passport, as my only available photo ID. It is accepted as proof of ID for opening bank accounts & proof of age (50+) It will suffice until eligible for a free bus pass next year.
It seems military ID (eg F1250) may give you access to bases covered by the Official Secrets Act but not a budget hotel room in Woking.

As a free-born citizen I was incensed to be asked for photo ID to fly within my own Country, when I could travel overland without hindrance.
Work-related Security ID I can accept but not one linked to my life history!
If 'papers' are demanded, I think I still have my post-war ID card.

The proposed Childrens' database should also be resisted, as should the DNA database for arrested but not convicted suspects.

I predict the first forged UK ID card will be circulating within weeks of the first compulsory card, which the Govt promised would not be before 2010-15?

Sorry if this is thread creep.

>>Well said, Sir. Can I join your army?<<

Of course!

Sign on at: http://www.no2id.net/

I don't need an ID card.........I know who I am.
If I say my name out loud it is checkable......anything fake is not going to pan out.
I do not believe ID cards are the prudent way forward as I am one of the "salute the man, not the uniform" subscribers.
Just my two bobs worth you understand.

I think the Geheime Staatspolizie used to to demand "Ausweis bitte!"
but nevertheless it amounts to the same thing - we are heading towards a police state..........

The notion that many civil servants voted for and would sustain this bunch of morons because they owe a debt of gratitude to this government, as expressed by a fellow forumite, is laughable.

Most civil servants that I've met resent the politicisation of their roles by this government and the PCS union is about to ballot it's members regarding strike action around this years pay awards - we'll see how grateful the civil service is then when the ballot results come in.

As repugnant as it might sound - I think the only reason things are not as bad as they could be is because of the civil service. I qualify this by looking at the 'elected' representatives from all parties that were voted in by the MORONIC idiots that put them there in the first place.

You and I.

Who'd work for less this year than last? Seems that civil servants are not immune from this either - and while there are roles that we could probably manage without we clearly need civil servants doing jobs for the apparent greater good than merely profit.

In essence, what I'm saying is that no-one is immune from the harm and chaos this government has created and caused. Insidious attacks on just about everything that distinguishes a free society from one that oppresses, attacks on the family, attacks on the rule of law, attacks on soveriegn rule, attacks on the union of our constituant states, attacks on the working man, attacks on our armed forces - one could go on.

It must be resisted - at the ballot box - and by every union or congress articulating freedom of expression that exists in the UK today be it local or national.

The edge of the abyss is upon us - what we do next determines those perceived freedoms and hard fought for priviliges.

I'm off to New Zealand because I only see more of the same - I hope I'm wrong. I might get 20 years there before the same old ****e cripples that country.

It would also seem worth pointing out that when all of us airside workers have these wonderful ID cards, there will have to be scanners/readers at all airside locations to check us in/out.

So now all the logistics are in place; who is to say that from a given date anyone wishing to leave or enter the UK will have to have an ID card or not get in/out. A family wanting to go on holiday will all have to have ID cards.

This is just a government scam to track us, tax us and generally overstep the role of the government of a supposedly free society.

To work airside I have already got several forms of ID.

This has been dragged out now for years and it is just the pride of those imbeciles in Westminster who do not want to appear on the 6 O'clock news announcing another U-turn. Bulldozer politics.

6

And after ID cards we get the DNA samples which are rumoured to be required to hold an airside pass in the near future...

"Hello Mr Alwaysairbus, could you please fill this DNA sample bottle up quickly before i can pass you you're new ID card"

I wonder if you're allowed to take your sample through the x ray machine if it's under 100ml's???

Oh no there won't .. that's one of the points to objecting ...

The new national ID card will have nothing at all to do with your airside access .. you can quite happily leave it at home, you don't need it for your work and it won't be asked for/required.

It's simply that airside aviation workers have been picked on as an easy group to coerce into having it.

By making it a condition of being allowed airside access to have a new National ID Card (even though it won't be passed or/used to to grant access) it means you have to get one or give up your job.

:mad:

The big problem is that once you have an ID card, you are who it (and the computer) says you are. If any of the data are wrong, then you will have a big problem trying to prove it is incorrect. It also works the other way, with a fake ID. If it claims you are Mr. J. Bloggs, then that is who you are, even if in reality you are Mr. O. B Laden.

There will be errors, there will be fakes; it's only a matter of time.

We stopped being a free society in September 2001 when everybody was assumed to be guilty and a potential threat to security. So much for the pressumtion of innocence.

Rwy in Sight

:=Just a thought, but as a BALPA member when are they going to ask me what I think about ID cards. I was under the distinct impression that they were supposed to represent me, and therefore my views.

I am am pro ID cards, for many reasons.

Is this just another vehicle for those at the top of BALPA to push there own agendas in search of that MEP job, or similar ??

whyisthat,

I would like to know some/all of your reasons to be pro ID cards. I am undecided and need convincing.

If some airside workers will not be required to have ID cards (as a condition for keeping their job) because they fall into the "too difficult category", then on the face of it this would seem to be blatant discrimination. Must have missed something.