I was in favour of ID cards but with all the recent sensitive data being lost, and evidence of this data being handled in what appears to be a very casual fashion by Goverment depts, they can keep them! :*

Manrow.

You say that BALPA are not going to be able to stop this. Well, asking for a judicial review is certainly a good starting point. :ok:

This attitude really does astound me. Also it beggars belief that people cannot grasp the reality of such a scheme.

1. The principle proponent of the ID scheme, a certain Labour minister, is the majority shareholder of the company selected to manage the ID card scheme.

2. the government has already entered into discussions to raise funds by "making the data available for individualised communication delivering value for money". in other words selling the data for marketing

3. the secondary stage of the id scheme is already in progress. which is to cross reference stored data between different agencies and groups. this is to enable the construction of profiles for individuals based on shopping habits, travel habits and anything else that is recordable.

4. the oyster card system, in use on London transport records every journey made with that card and stored. The metropolitan police have made over 250 applications for data in specific individuals movements. none have been refused.

Movement of mobile phones between cells is recorded and stored and available. yes, the movements of your cellphone are recorded and stored. This is why the government is pushing for legislation for all mobile phone numbers to be cross referenced with a passport.

5. the congestion charge cameras in London record and track vehicle movements 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and stored.

6. the use of data mining is already under development in order to profile individuals for preemption of determining 'potential' to commit crime. oh yes.. this IS under development, read the freaking news.

7. identity theft is nothing new, it has been going on for centuries. it has become more prevalent now due to the amount of data that is stored on individuals and the ease of access as this data can be accessed through many different aspects in the public domain.

8. the biometric passports and id card system chips can be read by equipment easily available in electronic retailers. this information can be read by as far away as 10 ft.

you walk though a crowd with a reader in your bag how many ID's will you be able to access and store the information from ? think about it.

9. we have all encountered incorrect information about ourselves held on computer, because it's on computer doesn't mean it is correct. but you try and get it rectified.

10. in respect of the prevention of crime or illegal immigration, this is just politics of fear. the reality is, if someone wants to engage in criminal activity, they wont be using their ID, they will be using YOURS.

11. the government has systematically proven it is incapable of managing secure data. in the past year the government has lost data on over 50 million people in this country, including armed service personnel, minors, pensioners, drivers, social security recipients and so on and so.

furthermore, the government has lied to the population about the id card system and its uses.

The id card system does nothing to negate the potential of false identity, in fact quite the opposite, it actually provides easier access for the duplication of personal data for use in untoward activities.

Are you aware that the inland revenue is provided access to store card and loyalty card information which is cross referenced with your tax information. what you spend and you nectar points, or whatever, are determined by the inland revenue if it fits with what you earn and what your disclosed savings are.

as above, if some wants engage in criminal activity, they will use YOUR identity, not their own and your identity information is too easily accessible for any benefit to reduce criminality or increase security.

Am I against ID cards. You bet. For the simple reasons;

1. the security of this country
2. for law enforcement to be effective
3. democracy and freedom of movement.
4. presumption of innocence until proven guilty, not the other way round.

Yes BALPA and everyone else should be against this. If someone wants to enagage in criminal activity at an airport, i dont want them using my ID and to be frank, neither do the police, it wastes their time and resources chasing a dead end or an innocent who has had their identity duplicated without their knowledge.

Good Post Bruce....Good to see others have got the message...Keep it up.:ok:

Bruce - an excellent post.

Very well said Bruce.

The whole idea of ID cards isn't "Big Brother" by stealth, it's implementation of "Big Brother" by a sledgehammer.

Shame on anyone who has been fooled into thinking it will somehow make everyday life safer.

So what are we prepared to do about it? Opposition to ID cards has been raised and backed by the TUC. BALPA are opposed and the T&G side of Unite are against it, but it will come down to me and you. It will take action to stop this happening. The soft target of airport staff could completely work against the Government, if UK air transport stopped for a day.

Lightbulb. Disappointingly the Amicus side of Unite is sitting on the fence. However, I can assure you that at grass roots level opposition is growing. The main problem is communicating with everyone and making sure they know what the ID system actually means and not just the spin.
Too many people just don't have a clue and think (as the Government hoped) that it was just another ID to add to their collection. Once informed then 99% are not in agreement and given the choice would not have one.
We are doing everything we can at all levels to oppose this and feel that we are beginning to have some effect.
Ultimately We want for some sort of ballot to oppose this with action. Then it will be down to everyone to have their say and hopefully put this into the bin it deserves to be in...
All we can do is to keep it up....:ok:

Stories about airside ID cards in today's FT and Daily Telegraph. Expect an announcement from Jacqui Smith tomorrow (6th November).

FT: Airport ID card scheme scaled back
FT.com / Home UK / UK - Airport ID card scheme scaled back
DT: First ID cards for Britons from autumn next year, Jacqui Smith to say
First ID cards for Britons from autumn next year, Jacqui Smith to say - Telegraph
Anyone care to comment on that last DfT statement? Sounds like utter tosh to me. If a (say) Russian pilot doing a walk-round doesn't have "airside access", I don't know who does!

So pilots do not need an airside pass??????????? Great news for Pilots!
Yet another example of the Government departments not having a clue.
The opposition is having some effect. Now we need the workers at Manchester and London City to say no to the system. If they don't then they will be letting down the rest of us....

Essentially the same news report as above, from El Reg:
Smith's airport ID card plans cut back to small pilot scheme ? The Register

...and a related story from a few days ago:
Airline industry refuses to be ID card guinea pig ? The Register

I did like the comment in the Register about the "small pilot" scheme. How short do you have to be to need an ID card? :E

Just been a bit on this in BBC Radio 4 Today Programme, (06:50) for those who wish to listen again. Interview with a bloke from No2ID (a bit weak in fact as he did not mention the ID Database that is the real killer of this scheme). Lets keep up the pressure and lets stop this now.


(Standby for Civil Servants in Cheltenham checking my PC IP address, e-mail traffic and monitoring my use of Oyster card to get to LCY!!!!) Yes that is all possible and would be linked under this scheme....

Well done, BALPA for opposing this mad scheme. It is completely flawed in conception and is likely to be executed badly -how many hundreds of million is the National Health computer system over budget?

Lets give them a hand with some letters to our MP's; WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free

From the BALPA website:

BALPA - PILOTS RESPOND TO GOVERNMENT PLAN FOR ID CARDS

Commenting on the Home Secretary's announcement today that pilots and all other airport workers in Manchesster and London City airports will be required to have the Government's ID card from autumn next year, Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) said:

'We are not convinced that this will improve airport security.

'We are not convinced this will deal with the hotch-potch of different regulations in different airports.

'We are not convinced that this is joined up government thinking.

'We shall be discussing this issue internally and consulting with our legal team.'

Time for the mooted judicial review into whether ID Cards are 'voluntary' if you lose you job for refusing to have one!

Perhaps the way forward to stop this madness is for a BALPA member, who is close to retirement, to refuse to apply for an ID card. Then with BALPA support sue the government for preventing him from working should he be sacked.

AP

I'll bet your not in that position AllyPally!

Brave offer you have made there!

Actually I am very near retirement and if working out of MAN or London City would consider it very strongly. ( I'll accept your apology Manrow!). I am lucky that by the time, if ever, IDs come up north I will be retired and free to ignore the need for an ID card:E

AP

Interesting to see that Manchester Airport are keen to help the Gvt round up some "volunteers".

Now who owns them I wonder? Local councils of course, 80- 90% labour controlled.

Not surprising that JS legged it up the M6 to ask for a few favours. I wonder what is being offered in return?


So what's in it for London City then? Can't think of anything happening in that part of the world in the next few years.:confused:

Actually it will not be as difficult as you think. Personally I will say no. If I am denied the right to work then the Union will have a direct dispute with the employer and will ballot for industrial action.
As we have seen in the last few days, nothing is solid in it's introduction. I believe Manchester and London Cityemployees have a dispute with their employer now as they have voluntarily signed up to the scheme.
Hopefully something will come of that. Support for them is needed. There is still a long way to go. The Government have managed to delay the implementation until after the next election. If they get back in then there will be no stopping them. If they fail then the Tories will abolish the act and New Labour will say that it's not their fault.
My God! What a poor choice of Political parties we have in the UK and not one inspiring leader amongst them.....:eek:

Manchester and LCY are getting the money to upgrade their security systems fully.....You are quite correct that they have been offered bribes. Of course had they been honourable employers they would have consulted the workforce first....Of course they are not.

Ah, so its nothing to do with them being in the market for purchasing another airport then?

So when they promised their staff that in accordance with the Data Protection Act etc, biometric data would not be shared with anyone else, what they really meant was......

Now had it been LHR, JS might have found herself in the embarrrasing position of having to ask some of the Airline executives who signed the letter of objection to this half baked scheme to be her first "volunteers".:)

Biddedout.
I Can't fault a word of your argument.......:)

Different puppets, same hand up their arses......INDUSTRY!

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but why is it necessary for a legal case to be made? Isn't there a much simple way to block the scheme?

If at the two airports in question, on the first day of operation with the new ID cards a majority of the staff accidentally mislaid their cards, the airports would be shut down with pax and TV crews besieging the gates.

It's unlikely that large numbers of staff could be dismissed over such a simple matter as forgetting a card, and in any case the operators couldn't bring in replacement staff because they wouldn't have the right ID.

Surely something like this might happen?

Edit: Not that I'm promoting any sort of conspiracy of course - that would be entirely wrong and quite unacceptable!

Sallyann
Sadly the issue is that you won't need to carry the awful thing....just be issued with it. The normal issue of an airside permit (from the airport)would be on the basis of holding one of Smith and Brown's Stazi Party ID cards....so would take a number of months to actually reissue the airside permit for everyone at the locations concerned. If on being asked to renew your airside pass you did not hold a so called National ID card then no new pass would be issued and you would be made unemployed......and this is supposed to be a Labour Government supporting the workers......I don't think so. They no doubt hoping the economic situation they have engineered will then make everyone scared for their jobs and go out and get one of these. Basically once again democracy has been put on hold by this bunch of bandits. Roll on an election to kick these idiots out.

Thanks Spanners - I thought there had to be a flaw somewhere.
So you must have the card, but not show it.:ugh:

MAN & LCY only trial
 

Here comes the even thinner end of the wedge then.

If ever we need the unions to stand together on something, it's now.

Just out of interest, as Labour are so concerned about regular access to sensitive areas, why don't they trial it out on the civil service. Not that they would ever employ "unsuitables" of course.

Oh sorry forgot, you never :mad: on your own doorstep do you.......

Sallyann1234
We knew Manchester was up for this some months ago. Manchester ID's have been issued with a 12 month expiry instead of the normal 5 years for a while now. What they want to happen is as the ID's come up for renewal then the requirement will be for you to prove who you are on production of a National Identity card. The trial is for 18 months to ensure that they ensnare everyone. Of course it goes without saying that if you are applying for work at MAN or LCY you will have to have the National ID or you won't be employed.
Once you have the National card you can throw it into a drawer and forget it. The act even specifically states that no one (Even the Police) can demand to see it. Of course the airports will not demand to see it only request.
oapilot
You are right. To that end some of us are working very hard to maybe achieve this.
It's not easy as some of the career National Officers in the TU's are hand in glove with New Labour politicians....This all has to come from Grass roots membership.
Support is growing, but we can't rest yet..

How about we all accept a card......after it is mandatory for every MP/lord/lady to hold one? Remember they have to be Citizens etc. this to include all present MPs/Lords/Ladies and those who put themselves up for election or buy their peerage.....shouldn't be a problem should it? Am sure there wouldn't be any one that would complain there would there. Remember some of them have access to Nukes, vote to send the youth of the nation to invade other countries, so should be enough reason for them to be correctly identified? Who's the broon chap with his finger on the button?

Oh of course I forgot, access to WMDs has never been a bar to high office has it? Its when you don't actually hold them you get illegally booted out!

The way things are going, one will have to hold a "party" card or "id card" to have access to any half decent job. Perhaps we could call it a National Socialist Workers card?

Eh? I renewed mine earlier this year and it was for the normal 5 years. :confused:

------------

I wrote to my MP and asked her to make some noise over this issue. She did as asked as she is opposed to it personally.

Got a nice letter from the government which basically said - "Tough titty". :mad:

TURIN no doubt we can say the same to Broon and his bullies after they are chucked out?

I said for a while....Not sure when it started. I was there the beginning of September (Talking to the Home Office) they had certainly started doing 12 month renewals then. exactly how wide spread it was I'm not sure. It was pretty clear then that an airport trial would take place and things were going on at Manchester that heavily indicated that it would be them.
I only hope the Manchester and LCY workforce are up for the fight....

Just to reiterate a point I made some months ago. I already hold an airside pass and another piece of identity confirmation which I need to use to go to work, it is called my passport. If when I got my passport the system was so poor that it does not actually confirm who I am and the need for another 'stazi' form of ID is needed then every country in the world should stop any UK citizen from entering their country.

Today it is the case that to go to work at an airport you will need an ID card, tomorrow you will need one to go shopping, vote, get a loan, pay a bill, go on holiday, have children ....... ..... .. . .. . .

6

Worrying that it's not being discussed on the respective airport threads!!! :ugh:

Well Liberty are on side....

Liberty - Protecting Civil Liberties Promoting Human Rights : 06/11/08 Liberty warns against expensive and invasive ID card scheme

I feel some sympathy with your post 6chimes!

Outright opposition to ID cards will not work, but let BALPA (supported by the membership) take the legal action to prove the point if they wish.

In the meantime considering the options and perhaps alternatives will be much more productive then all the vitriol spilt here.

There is only one alternative!!! The Government want their subjects on a huge data base to enable tracking and total control. The Alternative is to scrap the idea. .
It's not Vitriol being spilt here as you put it. I accept that there are a few of you that do not see it as a civil liberties issue or don't care about it being such. However, there are some of us that are taking the trouble to question in depth and challenge the Government. It's your opinion that outright opposition to the system will not work...I beg to differ, It has already had some success and the fight has not ended yet.
Your argument for them is the Illegal Immigrant argument..This argument fails on all levels...Only Legal immigrants will get the card (as they do at present). Illegal immigrants will still have nothing (Thats what makes them Illegal). Too many people lump all immigrants into the illegal category because it's convenient.
Even if the case was proven, it would not be worth giving up other civil liberties for such little gain.

Another issue here is that "legal immigrants" and British Citizens" are also lumped together in the same category.

Because you are a legal immigrant DOES NOT provide you with citizenship. Being a Legal immigrant give you "leave to remain" you still remain a citizen of your country of birth unless you denounce that citizenship.

Whereas, foreign nationals employed at airports are not subject to the extensive background checks that UK nationals are, due to the difficulty and complexity of a task, there remains a vast black hole of security.

It is not impossible or unlikely that a foreign national may have engaged in, been convicted of, of even been imprisoned in their own country of criminal activity, wither it be insurgency, drug offenses, theft or whatever and while having "leave to remain" in this country can gain employment at an airport with access to secure areas with no knowledge of that persons history or activities in their country or affiliations to "outlawed" groups or factions.

Therein, lies a huge security risk.

Unfortunately, we have gained a mentality of human rights that gives foreign criminals more rights than that the law abiding citizen in their country of birth. The country that they are the electoral voters, that the government is there to represent.

So the question here is that if the ID card system is applied to legal immigrants and there are no background checks to that persons prior history due to the complexity and difficulty and inability of the task with foreign governments and illegal immigrants will not be required to be issued with a card, then what is the point ?

This does nothing to enhance security. Unfortunately, with the offset of ID card issuance, then this in fact detracts from security with the misunderstanding that having been issued an ID card confirms "X" person's identity, without any cursory background knowledge.

Again, as my per my previous post, the main subjects to the ID card system and the "bolt-on goodies" the government gets from it is only to monitor and construct databases on UK nationals, their spending habits, travel patterns and all aspects of our personal lives that are quite frankly "none of the government's god-damn business."

This is being pushed through under the guise of security and immigration matters, which as we have seen have no bearing on either issue.

The Unions, the bulk of Labour support, will not go against the government on this issue . It is simply a union representatives path to destruction and loss of union representation in the NEC to stand firm against the government on the issue.