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-   -   BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/341720-balpa-against-id-cards-tuc-congress.html)

call100 8th Sep 2008 22:07

A question for all those 'Pro ID card'. Are you Pro ID card as in a card that proves your identity or are you Pro ID card and database?
Those that approve the database part no doubt would not have minded living in East Germany and having everything about them recorded.
The Government has already added extra bodies entitled to access to Contactpoint (Your children's database) without any consultation.
I usually find that those Pro ID card people have little concept of the database and the Governments dismal record on changing the use of any law or system without consultation or agreement.
I don't worry about them as it is clear that they are in a minority.
Even if I were Pro ID, I would be against the blatant discrimination of Aviation workers.
Having met with the Home Office on the issue of ID cards I am now even more against the introduction in general and especially of the issue to aviation workers.
As it will be specifically against the law for anyone to demand to see your ID card (In the beginning) It would seem a totally pointless exercise.
We know that the system will be trialled at one UK airport initially before being rolled out to all. The Home Office say that the decision has not yet been made as to which airport. They say it would have to be one that is willing to cooperate. However, logical deduction points to Manchester, based on the fact that some new airside passes are now only being issued with a renewal date of 12 months instead of the normal 5 years. Also the fact that they are the first to introduce the full biometric system.
As for cost. £30 will be the initial cost (Rising significantly in later years) and it will be up to each individual/group/Union to negotiate with employers as the individual will be responsible for the cost. I don't think the employers are going to be happy spending hundreds of thousands on a scheme that offers absolutely no benefits especially as it will not even replace the existing security checks.

Chippie Chappie 8th Sep 2008 22:28

Good point call100. Maybe we're looking at it from the wrong angle. As the airport wants the ID card, maybe they should be the one that pay for them?

whyisthat, I understand you are pro ID card, and I respect that. However, it appears that you are in a minority. The majority oppose ID cards. And that is how a democracy is supposed to work.

Cheers,

Chips

call100 9th Sep 2008 00:45

CC
I think you will find that most airports are not in favour of the ID card system. At least two Airport MD's have signed the letter from The British Air Transport Association. They are Birmingham and Luton Airports. I dare say the attitude of all the others will be the same.
In fact the only organisation in favour of the National ID scheme is the Government.:rolleyes:

6chimes 9th Sep 2008 14:13

If I am forced to apply for an ID card to keep my job, what information will I have to submit to get one and how will it be verified? As far as I can see the only way for me to prove that I am who I say I am would be to offer all the other forms of ID that I currently have, which is supposedly not enough hence the reason we need ID cards. :confused:

6

42psi 9th Sep 2008 14:20

Call100 & Chippie Chappy...

I'm afraid you're making the same fundamental error that many make on this subject.


It doesn't matter what airport they introduce it at first or what biometric or otherwise systems that airport has installed ..


The new National ID Card will not need to be carried by you at work as it will not be requested or required for airside access.

You will continue to use your present airside ID ... the two identification methods are not related or connected


Other than by the holder ... the govt. simply intend to make it a condition of being issued with an airside pass that you hold a National ID Card.


They could just have easily and rationally decided that it would be holding library card that would require a National ID Card

:*

jshg 9th Sep 2008 14:52

whyisthat - BALPA input
 
whyisthat -

I too am a BALPA member, and utterly opposed to ID cards. Your opinion is just as valid as mine (although I believe you are in a very small minority indeed).
The BALPA NEC and others have discussed IDs and the overwhelming consensus there too is opposition to them. If there were significant dissenting voices they might ask the membership - but in a democratic organisation the leaders lead without referring everything to the 'rank and file'.

Chippie Chappie 9th Sep 2008 18:43

call100, fair enough. And even better as it will mean assistance in fighting the blasted things. Put the pain and discomfort in to someone elses' court and turn them into you ally.

42psi, also a fair point - that doesn't make the press. All a bit rediculous for something that the Labor Party wishes to spend about as much on as will be spent on the 2012 Olympics.

Great idea to have a two-year test on public servants. To get a job in the public service, you must possess an ID card. Surely they must require an even greater scrutiny than aircrew if they will be managing the system.

Chips

call100 9th Sep 2008 20:09

42psi
I don't think I have any misconceptions over the ID card system. I don't think I had any before discussions with the Home Office or After.
From my last post.....

As it will be specifically against the law for anyone to demand to see your ID card (In the beginning) It would seem a totally pointless exercise.
I have not stated that it matters a jot which airport is used to begin with. The trial will not be just an issuing exercise. Everything you posted has already been discussed and it is widely known that you will not have to carry it and that it does not replace any other documents/passes.
Unlike some I am actually doing something constructive and not just sitting around in angst. I will do my best to keep this forum informed of anything relevant.
The next major step will be whether the TUC vote for the BALPA motion at Congress.
My opinion is that if they back it then that will put a major obstruction in the way of the act. However, since all the TU National officers met with Jaqui Smith last Thursday, at short notice, I am not counting any chickens.

Benjaman 10th Sep 2008 12:37

Why?
 
Why are so many people in the UK against a national identity card?

I live in Sweden and my driving license is my national ID card also. It has my personal ID number on it and whenever i use my credit card above a certain limit, i have to produce the card to be swiped. It makes life a lot easier and protects me from fraud. MY UK driving license before i moved here was a complete joke. I showed it to a policeman here once and he almost laughed at the piece of paper.

It's just like this new system in the UK called Chip and Pin. They were so late to the table, it's a joke. I was using my UK card here in Sweden and entering my pin at supermarket checkouts for years before i received this chip and pin card. For me nothing has changed.

I can understand that it shouldn't be forced on pilots to get public acceptance, but i just can't see what all the fuss is about.

jshg 10th Sep 2008 12:57

Because the UK ID card will be a massive database used and cross-referenced by many, many other agencies. Because the UK has a proven track record of leaving said data on trains or roundabouts. Because this data is controlled/used by self-important jobsworths whose arrogance is matched only by their inefficiency/stupidity. Because mistakes in similar (smaller) databases have already proved impossible to correct in a timely fashion. Because any UK national under the age of 40 is genetically unable to spell properly or consistently, so this will find its way onto the database as corruptions. Because any criminal who hacks into the system then automatically has access to every corner of your life. Because these same jobsworths have just made overfilling your bin (which is only emptied once a fortnight) a criminal offence, which will eventually have a negative impact on your ID and therefore your ability to fly an aircraft. These are just the points that spring immediately to my mind.
We already have photo driving licences which fulfill 90% of the security requirement, and could be made to 99.9% - but that wouldn't create enough jobs for said jobsworths.
Apart from the above, I have few objections to IDs ...

qwertyuiop 10th Sep 2008 13:11

jshg,

You forgot to mention the Billions of pounds it will cost.

flap15 10th Sep 2008 13:55

I may be a minority or part of the silent majority who can not be botherd to air their views. I know for a fact that only those opposed fundametaly to somthing or finally forced into a corner and told to make a decision will actively say or do somthing about whatever is ratteling their cage. So I am going to get of my couch and say:

I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with somthing to hide need fear it.

Now with all grand ideas the implementation often ruins the principle. However I do not think that because the system is not perfect we should not continue with it. We are after all human and the first to stand up and say "I am perfect" is not of this planet. So having set light to the blue touch paper I will step back the required safe distance.


.....Boom.....

spannersatKL 10th Sep 2008 15:53

Ahh the good old ...'If you've nothing to hide you have no worry argument' sorry won't wash with me.....the question is WHY do these stupid civil servants want all our data......all about 'control' if you ask me.....ID card, No Thanks......

Just think, no doubt this site is monitored by some 'jobsworth' at the DfT and Lackey Jackies Home Office to see whats going on. They will then be looking at the IP address of who posted what and keeping a tab on the poster.....think that far fetched....just wait and see what these pri*ks are capable of.......

Remember the signs at BA LHR base in the 70s/80s....I didn't vote Tory they said......well in this case I didn't vote for Blair/Brown's 'New Labour' stupidity (no one voted for Brown as PM it should be noted)....come the revolution when the common man wakes up to see the society that is being created by these ba$tards, will be nice to see the heads on spikes on Tower Bridge.......

Dysag 10th Sep 2008 16:46

Benjaman
 
Think of it like this.

In parts of "the continent", if a cyclist riding nude down Main Street gets stopped by the police it's not because of being butt naked, but that he/she probably isn't carrying their compulsory ID.

In the UK/US they'll risk a charge of indecent exposure but no-one will ever ask for their "papers". The phrase leaves a bad taste in a free country.

jshg 10th Sep 2008 17:23

At the risk of being banned for straying too far from aviation, the spectacularly mis-named Child Support Agency was given the power to cancel driving licences if they believed - often wrongly - that an individual was not paying what the CSA said was the correct maintenance. That is the problem with putting too much political power into the hands of monkeys, and allowing an 'infraction' in one area to have ramifications in other, unrelated areas.
Now, quickly back to aviation. An ID card will have a negligible positive effect on aviation security, regardless of whether or not it works. But it will have many negative effects, not the least of which is unnecessary cost for the sake of Gordon's political vanity.

oapilot 10th Sep 2008 18:05

Having corresponded with my MP (Labour, back bench) on the matter, he is quite open about the fact that many MPs have serious concerns themselves about how this is being rolled out, the relevance of the whole project, and also I believe the principle of so much data being held in such an unsecure fashion. That is before you even get into the arguments about what the Govt wants all this information for and what use it will be in enhancing national security.
My replies from the Home Office highlight the improved security we will benefit from as a result of the introduction of National ID Cards for airside workers. They do not explain how this will come about though. This despite the fact that foreign nationals will not be required to hold them, and the incumbant Government of this country allows a system whereby foreign nationals falling into the "too difficult to check properly" category are rubber stamped through anyway. Presumably a party so concerned with spin and being seen to do the right thing would not wish to be accused of discrimination.
We as an industry are an easy target. The Govt gets to pick on a sector where you will have no choice but to comply if you wish to continue down your current career path, and at the same time gets to crow about all the proactive steps it is taking to make us all safer. Dumbing down of society that has taken place makes sense when you wish to sell the public smoke and mirrors lies. Please don't forget that our current Home Secretary was more than happy to shaft the guardians of public safety over back-dated pay deals without batting an eye-lid.
Surprisingly, if we could have a relevant, secure and beneficial scheme for National ID, I would happily support it. Sadly, we have a white elephant (to join the herd of others we have had to suffer and pay for over the last 15 and no doubt as many again) instead. And it is being driven by a bunch of people I wouldn't trust to sit the right way round on the lavatory.
Sorry to those of you having to wade through this very personal rant, but this matter has been seriously p:mad::mad:g me off for several months now.

oap

spud 10th Sep 2008 18:34

It's another step towards being micro chipped at birth. No doubt, this would be presented as 'For your comfort and convenience but primarily for your security', and the reality tv generation would believe it.

For my comfort and convenience but primarily for the nation's security, would the chap all those funny twitches, stumpy finger nails and an obsession with control through databases be kind enough to hand over to someone a bit more normal. Although it breaks with tradition, perhaps some form of election might be appropriate.

manrow 10th Sep 2008 18:42

spud

you have the answer - micro chipped at birth!

call100 10th Sep 2008 20:56

One of Hitler's methods of controlling the German citizenry was mandatory national I.D. cards. No one could obtain work, food or travel without such cards and by means of the information on them, those who were socially unfit for the new German state could be easily identified and eliminated. :ooh:


The TUC Congress voted overwhelmingly to support BALPA's motion today. Although I must say the spokesman didn't give the best arguments against. Instead this was given by the seconder from Prospect. It was passed despite a disapointing speech by the GMB representative.
Hopefully, now we can begin organising with a bit more bite at individual airports and affected companies.

To those of you who think you have nothing to hide...I hope you are right...Forever...:E





call100 10th Sep 2008 21:03


you have the answer - micro chipped at birth!
Laugh you may.........


‘ContactPoint’ – formerly the Information-Sharing Index
The Children Act 2004 empowered the Secretary of State for Education to create a database (or databases) of everyone in England who is aged under 18. In July 2007, the regulations that will bring this first national database of children into being were passed by Parliament.
The government has announced that the database will be called ContactPoint. It was originally known as the Information-Sharing Index, but re-branded in February 2007 because of negative publicity about information sharing.

spannersatKL 10th Sep 2008 21:23

So basically the &*() s are out of control? Sooner the idiot at No10 gets his marching orders North the better?

Chippie Chappie 10th Sep 2008 21:47

It wasn't just Hitler who enforced ID cards. In the 1930s, Holland carried ID cards and they had nothing to fear because they trusted their government. And they were right...nearly. Unfortunately, their ID cards were related to information which also included their religion. So, when the Nazis came marching through in 1940 they could easily identify all the Jews...who were smartly marched off to concentration and death camps.

But hey, I'm being paranoid. That could never happen now....

What I want to know is why will I be stopped from doing my job for refusing to carry an item that's not related to my job that the rest of the population don't have to carry?

Still it's easy. Call an election Gordon :E

Chips

Beausoleil 10th Sep 2008 23:34


I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with something to hide need fear it.
What an odd thing to say. Why do you imply that "having something to hide" is suspicious in itself?

I prefer not to have strangers poking around in my life - there are aspects of my life I want to hide from the state. In short, I value my privacy. There have been lots of words for people who find that suspicious - the East Germans used to call them the Stasi.

The assumption that "having something to hide" is sinister is very foreign to traditional British values. I don't want to live in a country where preserving one's privacy is considered a suspicious activity

6chimes 11th Sep 2008 00:02

The notion of having nothing to hide therefore you should not fear being monitored by the state is nothing short of communism.

Who knows what ideas those that rule our lives have in store for us. And with the evidence of the last ten years that labour has so far displayed, it will be full of using laws to suit themselves (think back to when they used their new anti terrorist laws to arrest a 70 yr old labour activist from speaking at a conference).

When these ID cards can be used to determine what you get and when, then how long before those political imbeciles use them for compliance to their way of thinking?

For those of you that have viewed these posts from outside the Uk, and many of you already carry ID cards you may wonder at our reluctance. You have not lived with a government hell bent on protecting itself rather than doing its job of running this country. They want to control us like a huge train set and use us a live experiment that they once talked about as students when as now they have no knowledge of the real world, just an idea of some political ideal.

They are incompetent and they have proven themselves to be so on many occasions, so why would any rational person allow their free lives to be handed over to these creatures?

It is not who I am that worries me it is what they will do with me.

6

Fragman88 11th Sep 2008 01:04

Data protection
 
I caught an article on the BBC internet news service a couple of days ago about a data stick being lost containing sensetive information. Th worrying thing was they also listed many past events, the CDs lost in the post, heaps of laptops stolen etc. etc.

I had an ID card in HK for may years and found it to be good, however I'd need to see a big change in the UK's data security before being keen on supplying more data then they already have:=

llondel 11th Sep 2008 03:32

flap15:

I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with somthing to hide need fear it.
I think the preferred response at this point is usually to ask how much you earn, when you last had sex and with whom.

Most people get the point at this stage and most of the rest probably ought to be carrying cards to identify them and warn the rest of us what we're dealing with. Unfortunately it doesn't work with politicians because what they earn is a matter of public record and the rest is probably already in the tabloids.:E

Spartacan 11th Sep 2008 16:14

Discussed on NO2ID:

NO2ID :: View topic - BALPA TUC motion passed against National Identity Scheme

Quote:

>>Generalising on the basis of a modest knowledge of UK pilots and an even more modest knowledge of BALPA:
1. BALPA and its members wouldn't get into this fight if they didn't feel they had to.

2. They wouldn't get into it if they didn't believe they could win.

3. If they back down, it will be because they have been bought off. It's hard to see what the government could do to buy them off.

4. If they don't back down, the government will have to back down. Another defeat in IPS's unbroken record of defeats. (Good job IPS don't run an airline.)

5. When IPS were trounced by the banks and the major retailers, there was no crowing. There was no benefit to the banks and the retailers to be gained by crowing. The situation could be different with BALPA. They have an interest in making it clear to their members, loudly and in public, that BALPA will always strongly defend them.

6. The TUC has the same interest in making it clear to its members and everyone else that they are powerful. Demonstrating their power in the cause of everyone's civil liberties, not just their members', could be universally attractive. Which would make IPS look universally unattractive. Which they are ...

7. ... because my God, if ever there was a natural constituency for ID cards, it's airline pilots, and if IPS can't convince airline pilots that ID cards are a good idea, they can't convince anyone.

8. IPS's defeat by BALPA will strengthen the hand of the NUJ and UCU, who have also had a motion carried, and strengthen the hand of the NUS, whose members are next on the ID card roster after non-EEA nationals and airside workers ...<<

Spartacan 11th Sep 2008 17:22

Also NO2ID Press Release:

http://www.no2id.net/news/pressRelea...lmingly_oppose

>>"The Home Office has almost given up pretending that its ID scheme is necessary for national security. Those involved in aviation security day-to-day don't believe it. Now the plan is that ID will confront us in the workplace - as a form of official permission to earn a living. We are delighted that the unions and their members will be ready to fight it."<<

ZeBedie 11th Sep 2008 17:45

++ TUC PLEDGES TO RESIST THE NATIONAL IDENTITY SCHEME "WITH ALL
MEANS AT ITS DISPOSAL" ++

This week the Trades Union Congress (TUC) voted at their Congress in
Brighton to resist the National ID scheme with all means at its
disposal, "including consideration of legal action to uphold civil
liberties". The motion was put forward by the British Air Line Pilots'
Association (BALPA) in light of government plans to require workers in
aviation to enrol in the National Identity Scheme in 2009. The motion
states: "Congress sees absolutely no value in the scheme or in
improvements to security that might flow from this exercise and feels
that aviation workers are being used as pawns in a politically led
process which might lead to individuals being denied the right to work
because they are not registered or chose not to register in the scheme."
The motion puts unions on a collision course with the government over
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.

esa-aardvark 11th Sep 2008 20:41

ID cards.
 
I just took a look at my European ID card. It's huge
a piece of A4 paper (looks quite nice). Gives my full name,
place of birth, and parents first names. Also my nationality
address and my NIE (=tax number).
If only the UK would stop at something like that.

Why oh why does the UK need all the other data ?

call100 11th Sep 2008 22:14

"

The Home Office has almost given up pretending that its ID scheme is necessary for national security. Those involved in aviation security day-to-day don't believe it. Now the plan is that ID will confront us in the workplace - as a form of official permission to earn a living. We are delighted that the unions and their members will be ready to fight it."
As I said in another post..At the meeting with the Home office, they actually stressed that the requirement for us to have the ID had nothing to do with Anti-Terrorism. In fact that was the only time it was mentioned in the entire meeting. We did go expecting them to bang on about security and were surprised that they took this path. As it says above, they seem to have given up on that one. That is not to say that Government is not still saying that, they don't know how to change the mantra in the face of defeat.

The motion puts unions on a collision course with the government over
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.
The vote at the TUC congress was from the collective delegates. It would be wrong to assume that some of the National Officers at Warwick were giving any indication that they were against ID cards.
The GMB delegate seemed to have lost the plot at congress and had no idea what the arguments were. Thankfully BALPA used the right of reply and more or less said that. I do still think that the arguments that BALPA put over were not necessarily the best I've heard, but, at least they stood up to be counted and the outcome was positive. (I am not a member of BALPA)

Yarpy 12th Sep 2008 06:05


I do still think that the arguments that BALPA put over were not necessarily the best I've heard, but, at least they stood up to be counted and the outcome was positive.
Who gave the speech? Jim McAuslan?

Do you have a link to the transcript?

deltahotel 12th Sep 2008 09:08

Do I have a philosophical objection to ID cards? No - used one for years in the RAF and seen other countries use them. Do I think govt can bring them in without :mad: it up and costing an astronomical amount of money? No I don't - look at their record on big IT projects. Will they be forgeable? Reckon so and someone will.

call100 12th Sep 2008 09:21


Do I have a philosophical objection to ID cards? No - used one for years in the RAF and seen other countries use them
Lets not lose sight of the problem....It's not the ID card (We all have one for work) its the Database and Government control. Unfortunately in the UK you can't have one without the other.


call100 12th Sep 2008 09:44


Who gave the speech? Jim McAuslan?

Do you have a link to the transcript?
Even better.....BBC Iplayer still has the whole conference....For those not Union minded (unless it suits) the relevant part of the video is on the time line at 2.33.50. to save you watching all the other stuff
TUC Conference: 2008: 10/09/2008

Having re listened to the speech. I think he may have done better than I first thought. It is difficult at congress as you only get 7 minutes to put the motion across. The second speaker for 'Prospect' made some of the missing points.
Stick with it BALPA reply to the bad speech from the GMB representative.
UCU representative makes very good points.

saddest aviator 27th Sep 2008 11:04

UK Government plans for National Identity Cards
 
I think we all know that UK nationals who work airside are going to be subject to new rules concerning UK ID cards. I think whether we like it or not, all of us that work in such an environment are going to be forced to have the new cards. The question I have is are we also going to have to have an individual airport specific card as well as we have at the moment? Some numpty at the BAA security is probably dreaming up some excuse as we speak as to the reasons why we should all still be subject to additional screening as well as UK government screening. After all security is a good little earner for airports. Any thoughts?

fireflybob 27th Sep 2008 11:39

The topic of ID cards came up on Any Questions (BBC Radio 4) last night - Any Answers is on at 1310 today and I thought this would be a good opportunity to get on air to mention how airside workers feel about this suggested imposition. I am just off to fly but perhaps someone even more erudite than me might want to give them a call over this issue - good luck!

qwertyplop 27th Sep 2008 16:45

Saddest Aviator Wrote:

Some numpty at the BAA security is probably dreaming up some excuse as we speak as to the reasons why we should all still be subject to additional screening as well as UK government screening. After all security is a good little earner for airports. Any thoughts?

No chance - there's a huge difference between passing through a 5 year check as is required now and being vetted properly - I'm sure some of the ex - forces people here will back me up on that one. Ergo the airports would shut down overnight if vetting was to be done properly - remember the Trever McDonald show about BHX and the behaviour of our airside colleagues? I sure do.

Another thing - what no-one here is picking up upon is the guard force companies in some UK airports are employing increasing amounts of Eastern Europeans to physically screen SLF and staff now - are these the same people that we all know CANNOT be screened for criminal records right now according to the Daily Mail?

BBC NEWS | UK | Airport staff avoid crime checks

In such circumstances, someone who has been honest and upfront about a previous mistake and declared it is a safer bet than some of those whose antecedence cannot be checked.

call100 27th Sep 2008 20:44

Come on people...Lets not lose sight of the reason you will be required/forced to have a national ID card as an airside worker......It's so that the Government can begin the role out of the system to the general population with the argument about how many already have them...If they make it voluntary no one will have one.
In Talks with the home office officials who are implementing this they actually stated it was nothing to do with security.
The Act says that no one can demand to see your ID including the Police. Once issued you will not be required to carry it anywhere. This card is only seen as something we need by the present ruling party...They have no support from any other area.
Lets not make this an aviation only issue. It is a Civil Liberties abuse.
As for the cost £30 each for your initial cards.....It will rise in the future once they have every one on the system and it will be renewable.
Some of us are fighting the whole thing and sometimes despair at the 'There's nothing we can do' attitude.

qwertyplop 28th Sep 2008 07:02

I don't doubt you are correct call100 but I'll bet a months salary that if you don't produce the card, you won't get an airside pass in the first instance.

Thereafter, I'll bet that anytime a security operative asks you for the national ID card, despite the fact that you may already have given him/her you airside pass to pass through a barrier, and you refuse, you'll be denied entry because these places are all private property and they can stipulate what they like if you wish to proceed through.

Same as now really, you don't have to submit to a search if you don't want to, that's your perogative but they'll just turn you away and you can't work.

We are bent over a desk and our pants have just been removed............

:\


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