Sorry but that's not how it's working...Initially new pass applicants will need to provide one purely as Identity proof for their airside pass. It will not be required to be carried by any airport staff or shown at any security point.
As a security pass of any kind the National ID is of no use whatsoever.
As I say the fight goes on.......At least I won't give in with a whimper of inevitability....
The problem with all of this is the Data base that goes with it....It was also made clear by the Home office that the first cards would be a prototype. Linking of everything you do to your NID will follow. Everything you do will be tracked by the Government. Any Government now or future can use that information for whatever they please. They have already stated that they will sell certain information for commercial purposes......

Here is the link to the BBC Any Questions programme:

BBC - Radio 4 - Any Questions?

ID Cards are discussed about 40.15 mins in.

Whislt we are on the subject why has BALPA not published a press release about the TUC resolution? It was quite a coup for them - you would think they'd be proud of it!

Would anyone contributing to this thread be prepared to refuse to hold a UKID card?

After the TUC conference, I would hope that some work is being carried out to organise an industry wide response to this issue, but I imagine it will come down to a choice and it will be the individual putting at risk, their employment.

I'm not planning on getting one, but as I don't work airside that's not particularly relevant. I renewed my passport early (anyone who needs one before 2011 probably ought to see about getting one before they hang all the biometrics off it) to avoid that being a way of getting me in the system.

What it probably needs is for every airport to have a collection centre where people can dump their ID card application paperwork when it's received, so that a big visible pile of evidence that others are refusing the cards can help inspire the ones who are nervous about doing it.

I think it's time for the aviation bosses who wrote to the government a few months back objecting to the scheme to put back up their words with action. They need to write again stating that, with their full support, none of their employees will be applying for cards.

Assuming the Tories stick to their word (and lets face it politicians always do!) it doesn't matter anyway because they will scrap the system when (not if) they win the next election.

call100 wrote:

Sorry but that's not how it's working...Initially new pass applicants will need to provide one purely as Identity proof for their airside pass. It will not be required to be carried by any airport staff or shown at any security point.

This is the bit where we part in our views I think - I just can't see it stopping here. I'm sure that because airports are private property, the guard forces will be instructed to check the ID cards to verify the airside passes. It'll be done randomly and while you are not compelled to do it, refusal will lead to your airside pass being withdrawn.

I'm confident this will be the case eventually.

I'm emigrating because I really can't stand what has happened in this country any more - it's so ******* obvious to me yet seems to allude millions of others. So long as Joe Schmoo has cheap credit, a new car every two years and a 42' plasma telly - he's happy that he is making progress in his miserable little existance, he's happy to sell his soul down the river for whatever reason he's told by the powers that be. Given the present economic and security situation we face, perhaps Joe is waking up to what he's signed up for, as if it really matters though, the damage has already been done.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone who signs up to these miserable cards is a collaborator, strong words yes but you legitimise all that is wrong with the way we are governed today.

I despise and pity the future you are signing up for if you take one of these cards.

You are right in one respect it will change in the future. However, the law will have to be changed to enable anyone else to demand your card.....Even the Police.....It will not be required for airside access as it will have been produced for the application.. Your scenario where it will be up to the individual airport will not happen.
You are missing the point that the card is nothing to do with airports, airlines, airside workers etc. etc. It's about starting off the whole scheme. with as little objection as possible.
I can't blame you for emigrating if you are able...UK PLC is in need of a drastic kicking to get it back on track.

llondel
You hit on another point of the aviation worker requirement..It takes away your right to individual protest to some extent. If Joe Blogs at the local Butchers in the future refuses to apply for a NID along with the millions of others who will refuse he keeps his job.
Should you refuse you will be denied an airside pass, therefore forfeiting your job..
Blatant discrimination of the aviation workforce...:eek:

The national advertising campaign will start soon. It will try to allay any fears with Government Spin.....Watch out for them..For heavens sake don't fall for them.

Why not a small tatoo ?
Somewhere like the left arm
IBM may still have the software and hardware it developed for the first group of people to get tatoo's before WW2:E

call100 wrote:

Your scenario where it will be up to the individual airport will not happen.

You are missing the point that the card is nothing to do with airports, airlines, airside workers etc. etc.

I have no faith or belief that this will be the case call100, I really don't. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I just don't trust those involved in this process.

These places are private property, therefore they can do what they like, and they will. I understand they cannot compel you to do it by law but they can turn you away if you don't because they have that right. Same as the staff seach procedure now, I can refuse because I did not consent but they can refuse entry because I did not consent.

I don't think it's anything to do with the law at all, it's to do with what they want to do on their property. If they say I have to hop on one foot for 5 minutes before they let me through, what choice have I got if I want to work. It's why the security regime is different in every UK port because they've been allowed to interpret as they see fit.

I'm not that interested if it's to do with airport staff or not, that it effects me is all I'm bothered about.

I hope to be away from this stinking pit of a country before it's instigated. I never thought I'd ever say that.

:(

Apologies if this seems a bit ranty, I just don't understand how we arrived at a point where the least qualified people to pronounce on something in our work environment have acquired so much power to impose an agenda upon the majority of good hard working people for no real quantifiable reason other than their failed experiments in multiculturalism.

How on earth is that my fault?

Why on earth did people sleepwalk into this nightmare?

No, you won't. The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Para 16, s2) specifically makes it a civil offence for ANYBODY to require you to produce the ID card for ANY purpose, or provide them with ANY information held about you on the database. If airports chose to make it a condition of passage through security, they would be breaking the law. The fact that the premises are 'private property' is irrelevant. In fact, reading through the provisions of the above-mentioned s2, any attempt to get anybody to do anything other than register and obtain a card would be illegal - with that in mind, exactly what is the purpose of forcing the aviation industry to register en-masse? The card cannot be used for anything, under current legislation.

Having said all that, I couldn't be more opposed to this scheme. As many have already said, it's not the card itself, but the data collection behind it. Read through the Act itself here - many of its provisions are truly frightening. For example, the Home Secretary can demand information, under penalty, from any person, that relates to any other person on the database. Moreover, the Act specifically authorises him to pay for that information!!! This seems more to be straight out of a Mafioso movie than a supposedly free, democratic society!

It's purely political. The ID Card scheme is dying but it would be a disaster for the Government to have to cancel it before the next election so they pick a 'percieved' soft group to launch the scheme. They misread the feelings of pilots and, due to the BALPA TUC resolution, this has backfired. So, they move on to the next 'soft' group - 'overseas students, and people seeking to settle in the UK with British husbands and wives.'

Read the latest on NO2ID:stop ID cards and the database state

As as a parent, the scheme that most worries me right now is Contact Point. The thought of my child's personal data been hacked or lost is quite appaling.

The important thing here is can i legally refuse to register for one or can my employer
force me tohave one

ID Cards will be linked, in a way that is not yet precisely clear, with the issue or renewal of your airside pass. So, no ID Card - no airside pass.

Just heard David Cameron on the Today programme confirm that he will cancel ID Cards, the National Identity Register and the children's database Contact Point.

If your money is on a Tory win at the next election then you can smile - just a little.

I don't get it? If you have nothing to hide- whats the problem??

The problem is we are told a lie to get us onboard and its a waste of money and will not inprove security. Its the big brother thing and its a slippery slope. I have nothing to hide and have lived in countries that required me to have a ID card, the difference being they did not hold all the info this one will and the people who will have access to it concerns me . And the sneak it in the back door way of getting us used to the idea.

'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear' has led to a culture of individuals and organisations being careless with personal data whilst criminals and wrongdoers learn to cover their tracks carefully to avoid detection.

Rebellion…the irony. Why not use your real name when you post?
Surely you have nothing to hide.

The argument for ID cards that is based around 'if you have nothing to hide' is wrong and spells out everything that has gone wrong in the UK over the last 10 years of a labour government. If you don't agree with their point of view then they create spin to suggest that you are in fact some sort of radical lunatic.

i.e. If you don't agree with the way immigration has been handled over the last few years you are immediately branded a racist.

If you want to mention how we are pandering to muslim radicals you get slammed as anti-islamic.

If you are against the UK joining the Euro, you are said to be a Xenophobic.

I do not want an ID card because I live in a free country and I want to go about my business without the government knowing my every move and hence tax it. The ID card will not benefit me in any way shape of form, it will be used for other purposes that could in fact be of detriment to me. Forcing me to have an ID card that will not assist in security just because I work in a job that requires security clearance is political thuggery designed only to save their own reputations rather than back down.

Within 5 years of its implementation there will be a scandal from either losing all our information on a laptop because the private company hired to look after it all was inept or there will be some unscrupulous/incompetent employees caught abusing our information for either criminal or terrorist means. There will be wholesale failure much like the CSA debacle.

Why do I distrust this government so much? Because they are a lying, cheating, war mongering bunch of self obsessed hooligans.

6

I like the bit in the act regarding required information. at 1 (7) (d) "his date and place of birth and, if he has died, the date of his death;"

Id cards for dead people.:rolleyes:

I understand that entries on the National Identity Register will be kept until five years after the ID Cards holder has passed away.

So, yes, we are even tracked in our coffins, urns and sea burials!

This is of particular concern. They know they can't 'sell' the idea of a database to the adult population, so what do they do? Target our children! Children do not stay children forever - they eventually grow up and become adults. Within a generation, the whole of the UK will have been 'born' onto the database!

But this is nothing new for this government and their social experimenting, dreamed up when they were sociology students in the 60s in a haze of weed and LSD. They've done this before. When they realise they can't sell their radical, social-engineering ideals to the (still largely) free-thinking adult population, they brainwash our kids by forcing schools to teach them their propaganda.

We're not heading into a big brother society - we are already there.

See my previous post - they cannot do this, it would be illegal. At least under the current legislation as it stands.

The ID Cards Act allows the Secretary of State to 'designate', by regulation, a document for the purposes of the Act.

My interpretation of this is that they would 'designate' an airside pass as an ID Card document. Thus, you would not be able to hold an airside pass without an ID Card.

It will be the same for passports.

I would love there to be a flaw in this position - if you can establish one.

Rod of Iron
 

Well, I am a little late on this one girls. Sadly in my book BLPA equals Luddites. Argemmadon is approaching, beware.
Yours truly R o I.

I personally don't have a problem owning or carrying a national ID card- why would anyone worry if they have nothing to hide? The only people who would genuinely have a problem with it clearly DO have something to hide such as criminals or illegal immigrants etc! Many countries have such a thing- in Holland you are required to carry it if you are (I believe) over fourteen.

What I DO have a problem with is having to pay for the privilege! If they want to provide me with this card, I don't have a problem carrying it. After all, I carry a wallet full of credit cards and a photo driving licence- one more won't be a problem! But I ain't paying for one!

But it certainly won't help improve security- can HMG afford to be doing this with all the associated costs at a time when the country is clearly going bust?

"Nothing to hide nothing to fear"

Try that one on the Birmingham 6 the Guildford 4, the late Mr Menendez or Sally Murrer. Yes, it happens to white middle class Brits as well as the Irish and foreigners. Do a web search on Ms Murrer, middle class house wife and mother, part-time local journliast, bugged, arrested, strippped, kept incommunocado and so on. Not for committing a crime but for having the wrong friend.

Wake-up.

Yarpy:
The one flaw from the perspective of the government is if the airport workers can stand firm and overwhelmingly refuse ID cards. No card, no pass, nothing happens airside. Unions used to be good at organising large protests, this is one time where it would be nice to see them demonstrate they can still do it. After all, if everyone turns up to work with their most recent airside pass, it's going to be more like a management lockout than a strike.

You only need to hold out 18 months or so, by then we'll either have a new government or we'll be deep in the smelly stuff anyway.

I think this issue here is that, prior to the General Election, New Labour wants to get some kind of ID Cards scheme working. So, expect a piecemeal approach. They might, for example introduce ID Cards at just one UK airport. This would reduce the opposition.

After the next Election, in the extremely unlikley event that New Labour are returned to power I would expect them to can the ID Cards scheme - it's just going to be too much hassle.

However . . . Expect the National Identity Register to remain - but linked to passports. This a key point. The Government are looking at changing passport legislation. Presently they are issued under the Royal Prerogative. They now want to put passports on a statutory basis. This would allow the Government to change the rules surrounding them. I.e. demand that you use the passport for other purposes.

Watch this space, as they say.

So now you have all had a good moan are you going to accept the ID cards?

BALPA may not be powerful enough to stop this?

Mass Action
 

On the day of implementation we simply choose to go to work or not.

Nothing moves in UK airspace.

How long could the Govt and the economy cope with that?

If enough stay away from work the Govt perform a U-turn.
If sufficient turn up for work for safety not to affected then the Govt win.

That's democracy.

What is going to happen is they will instruct airports to establish identity of airside pass applicants via National ID's. They will not be able to demand to see them. Applicants will be free to say no. However, no airside pass would be issued.
No airside pass.........:ugh:
You will not be required to produce one until your ID is up for renewal or you are a new applicant.

From Today's Observer:

ID cards plan in crisis as the 'guinea pigs' revolt

This sounds to me like a very good move indeed. I look forward to hearing mor of this on the BALPA website!

It's good to see that things are beginning to come together for those of us who are anti the NID card.
More is yet to be done but I think this can be defeated.
It does amaze me however, that a Government can get into such a position that it refuses to listen to the arguments and carries on regardless. They know that the apathy that runs through the British public means they can get away with it.
What is needed is mass demonstrations and calls for an immediate election. I know it won't happen but it is still the only way to get the point across.
I hope BALPA (and other TU's representing airside workers) don't bottle this. The Government is already trying to buy off the TU's with offers on other things....Still the fight goes on.:ok:

'ID card guinea pig' pilots ready to call in lawyers

'How can it be voluntary if we're all going to lose our jobs?'
'ID card guinea pig' pilots ready to call in lawyers - Public Sector - Breaking Business and Technology News at silicon.com

So, in other words the Government either thinks it can ignore a Judicial Review or may influence the outcome of it in the first place.

Can the government afford the cost of the ID cards now that they are hocked up to the eye balls bailing out the banks. Perhaps now would be a good time to bury bad news and quietly withdraw from this ill thought out plan.

Maybe now that Gordon runs the banks we will all have to have an ID card to use his services.

They should of implemented ID cards for Bank execs! They have been a bigger risk to our security than a pilot ever has! :ok:

6

Ever thought of not re-electing them every time you're asked?

:*

A lot of us have thought of exactly that. Unfortunately, in recent years around 75% of people couldn't be bothered one way or the other.:ugh:

The Economist has a great peice about ID Cards and other Big Brother projects:

ID cards flounder | A solution in search of a problem | The Economist

Love the cartoon of the 'Guinea Pig' airline pilot chucking his ID Card out of the L1 door!

Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon has said the government is prepared to go "quite a long way" with civil liberties to "stop terrorists killing people.

Do the Terrorists job for them. Frighten the people and deprive them of their Civil Liberties,
At least he has shown the true colours of this Government.
I don't think even he can believes that we believe him....:rolleyes:

I posted this elsewhere but is much more appropriate here:-

Public Service - ID cards will not prevent terrorism

Nice to know GCHQ think IB cards will not prevent terrorism!

This Government won't listen though will they?

manrow which side of the argument are you on? Post 109 appears to support the ID cards and you last one appears to be anti? Are you sitting on the fence?

If this bunch of to$$ers in No10 can use Anti Terror legsilation on Iceland and to assist George to extradite ordinary criminals (Note: it has never been used to actually stop proper 'terrorists' and in fact would never actually put off any of them in any case) then we are all terrorists in their eyes aren't we. So the reason they want ID cards and the big brother Data Base is that we are all in the frame and they can act like Nazis....or more probably the Stazi....frankly every time one of Browns Gangsters opens their mouths I feel sick.... :}