MYT Flight Revolt
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Not so NOT SO,
Ldg gear monitor/ldg gear disagree is a NO DISPATCH status message. It cannot be deferred.
ASFKAP
The C of A would only be invalidated if the defect was written in the tech log and the a/c flown with it uncleared. As I suspect this was not the case then technically it was ok to fly.
Down route defects are quite commonly rectified by pilots talking to maintenance (Maintrol) to see if a simple fix will clear it and I suspect this occured this time. Redistribution of the hold baggage (BY BAGGAGE LOADERS NOT A HIGH SPEED TAXI AND BRAKE MANOUVER) is an acceptable way to ensure the nose squat sensor is in ground mode. Had it not worked I'm sure the pilot would have grounded the a/c.
Ldg gear monitor/ldg gear disagree is a NO DISPATCH status message. It cannot be deferred.
ASFKAP
The C of A would only be invalidated if the defect was written in the tech log and the a/c flown with it uncleared. As I suspect this was not the case then technically it was ok to fly.
Down route defects are quite commonly rectified by pilots talking to maintenance (Maintrol) to see if a simple fix will clear it and I suspect this occured this time. Redistribution of the hold baggage (BY BAGGAGE LOADERS NOT A HIGH SPEED TAXI AND BRAKE MANOUVER) is an acceptable way to ensure the nose squat sensor is in ground mode. Had it not worked I'm sure the pilot would have grounded the a/c.
Sly Lowlife Freight
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Forgive me for my simple slf interpretations but generally as far as I'm aware, if a large passenger aircraft crashes then everybody or most everybody on board dies. The crew don't get a choice to live, they take their chances with the rest of us. Therefore if the crew are willing to get on then I really don't worry about it, my risk is their risk and they're the ones with the informed decision. The captain did a fine job in keeping the passengers informed, I guess in any load there will always be a few with the 'soap opera' dramatic mentality.
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Whilst it's clear this is basically a story about crap reporting, Instrument Ranting has the beginnings of a point... by all means keep the pax as fully informed as you like, but the vote was *probably* a mistake... and as we've seen, liable to misinterpretation.
I recall a conversation with colleagues many years ago about the nature of captaincy... one colleague told the story of the Navy captain who, with shore leave due and the ship approximately equidistant from two possible ports, allowed the crew to vote on where *they* would prefer to take shore leave.
When the higher-ups found out about it, the captain was immediately ordered back to home port... and never allowed to sail again. Desk job.
Granted, this was a military command. The point remains: with ultimate responsibility comes ultimate authority. *You* carry the can, you don't need the help of the pax to make decisions like that...
Probably seemed a good idea at the time...!
R1
I recall a conversation with colleagues many years ago about the nature of captaincy... one colleague told the story of the Navy captain who, with shore leave due and the ship approximately equidistant from two possible ports, allowed the crew to vote on where *they* would prefer to take shore leave.
When the higher-ups found out about it, the captain was immediately ordered back to home port... and never allowed to sail again. Desk job.
Granted, this was a military command. The point remains: with ultimate responsibility comes ultimate authority. *You* carry the can, you don't need the help of the pax to make decisions like that...
Probably seemed a good idea at the time...!
R1
Both The Guardian and The Independent reported that a high-speed test run was made AND that baggage was redistributed - NOT that the taxi run was made TO shift the baggage. Which goes to show - don't believe the Torygraph...
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An interesting tale
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newsl...4B216&set_id=1
Pilot shows confused plane what's up
August 12 2003 at 11:24AM
London - A British pilot took matters into his own hands by repairing a defective computer on a Boeing 757 himself and returning to England with 20 passengers, the Times reported on Tuesday.
A monitor on the MyTravel aircraft last Friday indicated that the plane was airborne despite being parked on the tarmac in Menorca for about seven hours.
Covered in oil after resetting a sensor in the plane's nosewheel, the pilot stood on a chair in the terminal building and pleaded with the exhausted ........................
Pilot shows confused plane what's up
August 12 2003 at 11:24AM
London - A British pilot took matters into his own hands by repairing a defective computer on a Boeing 757 himself and returning to England with 20 passengers, the Times reported on Tuesday.
A monitor on the MyTravel aircraft last Friday indicated that the plane was airborne despite being parked on the tarmac in Menorca for about seven hours.
Covered in oil after resetting a sensor in the plane's nosewheel, the pilot stood on a chair in the terminal building and pleaded with the exhausted ........................
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The light begins to dawn as the truth slowly seeps through the media rubbish. I'm grateful to others for buying newspapers - they're useful floor protection when I'm decorating ; I've got better things to spend my money on.
Lets hope the Captain concerned works for an intelligent and decent management. I've worked for management who would now have one thing on their minds, even if the guy was blameless - "Let's cover our behinds and be seen to discipline this guy. That'll keep the heat off us."
Lets hope the Captain concerned works for an intelligent and decent management. I've worked for management who would now have one thing on their minds, even if the guy was blameless - "Let's cover our behinds and be seen to discipline this guy. That'll keep the heat off us."
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Re comments about the CRS and pilot maintenance:
1) All known defects have to be reported/recorded
2) If recorded, the aircraft cannot depart until a CRS has been issued or the defect has been deferred. A pilot can defer a defect provided it is covered by the MEL and no maintenance action is required.
3) If all this hype is true, the pilot should not have attempted any form of rectification or fault-finding. The fault, as described, seems to relate to prox sensors on the nose leg or an over-serviced/defective nose leg extended too far (I've seen that several times). This also manifests itself with the EICAS showing inflight start parameters with the engines shut down on the ground. I suspect the attempted fast-taxy may have been an effort to rectify this.
4) Unless he/she is a licenced engineer (there are a few) authorised on type the pilot should attempt nothing - a maintenance organisation should have been involved. If none were available, it's a wait for the pax pending the arrival of suitably qualified people.
5) Why is it that the only aviation experts the press contact are E. M. and D. L?
1) All known defects have to be reported/recorded
2) If recorded, the aircraft cannot depart until a CRS has been issued or the defect has been deferred. A pilot can defer a defect provided it is covered by the MEL and no maintenance action is required.
3) If all this hype is true, the pilot should not have attempted any form of rectification or fault-finding. The fault, as described, seems to relate to prox sensors on the nose leg or an over-serviced/defective nose leg extended too far (I've seen that several times). This also manifests itself with the EICAS showing inflight start parameters with the engines shut down on the ground. I suspect the attempted fast-taxy may have been an effort to rectify this.
4) Unless he/she is a licenced engineer (there are a few) authorised on type the pilot should attempt nothing - a maintenance organisation should have been involved. If none were available, it's a wait for the pax pending the arrival of suitably qualified people.
5) Why is it that the only aviation experts the press contact are E. M. and D. L?
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Which aircraft was this? not i hope G-PIDS this used to (rest) at Leeds and was nick-named "pax in deep ****" due to the number of times it had gone `tech` with minor niggels.
Away from the reporting you need to bear in mind that for most of these pax's they are not frequent flyers and its an adventure for them. I can remember years ago my parents tell'in me about "how they nearly ran out of fuel" coming back from some sun spot and how they has to land in Portugal to refuel, strong head winds in an old 737-200 no doubt, either way the point you need to remember is that its part of their holiday and most will still be talking about it in't workin' man's club at Christmas but come next summer they'll back off to Lanzygroty and willStill fly with Mytravel aslong as they are 50p cheaper than Air2bob!
Later today when all the old dears get together for their bingo (pension day) it will start all over again, quickly followed by "you should sue them, my friend sued the bingo club cos she tripped over someones walking stick ,got `thousands`" and on it goes where there is blame there's a claim!!!
Most of my PAXS today will spend more on their ticket to AMS than this lot paid for a week, but its is their own cash i guess
Instr-ranting
I guess you don't fly for a living, lifes not black and white, thankfully most tech problems are, but every now and again, normally well away from home, some little microswitch says` ****** this 39c is to warm for me`
right off to cloggy land
Away from the reporting you need to bear in mind that for most of these pax's they are not frequent flyers and its an adventure for them. I can remember years ago my parents tell'in me about "how they nearly ran out of fuel" coming back from some sun spot and how they has to land in Portugal to refuel, strong head winds in an old 737-200 no doubt, either way the point you need to remember is that its part of their holiday and most will still be talking about it in't workin' man's club at Christmas but come next summer they'll back off to Lanzygroty and willStill fly with Mytravel aslong as they are 50p cheaper than Air2bob!
Later today when all the old dears get together for their bingo (pension day) it will start all over again, quickly followed by "you should sue them, my friend sued the bingo club cos she tripped over someones walking stick ,got `thousands`" and on it goes where there is blame there's a claim!!!
Most of my PAXS today will spend more on their ticket to AMS than this lot paid for a week, but its is their own cash i guess
Instr-ranting
I guess you don't fly for a living, lifes not black and white, thankfully most tech problems are, but every now and again, normally well away from home, some little microswitch says` ****** this 39c is to warm for me`
right off to cloggy land
I am a figment of my own imagination
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The thread is interesting for a number of reasons. 'Chinese whispers' show that despite some quite clear facts, the interpretations by the various readers have left most of them with quite differing pictures of what went on and what they would/would not have done, and their mindsets.
It demonstrates that almost any action taken by the Captain would have found him open to someone's criticism and a hero to some, unprofessional to others, lazy uncaring git to the remainder.
It show that the tabloids will spin to sell, and cater to an audience whose titalation is the pricipal object of the exercise. Truth figures in a vague sort of way, and generaly comes way behind in the list of an editors priority's. Most are a waste of good paper.
Groundbased's account of actual reports from passengers actualy there and involved, would seem to have a ring of truth. MYT is like many others is struggling to survive and this sounds like an effort above and beyond by a staff member detirmined to do his best for his company and his passengers.
The hows why's and wherefor's aside, it is a demonstration of someone trying to sort out a problem and get the job done despite the odds. In a day and age where most people are simply out for themselves and the easy way out, where trains planes and automobiles are late, cancelled or in a gridlock it makes for a refreshing read.
My hat is off to the Captain of that flight.
It demonstrates that almost any action taken by the Captain would have found him open to someone's criticism and a hero to some, unprofessional to others, lazy uncaring git to the remainder.
It show that the tabloids will spin to sell, and cater to an audience whose titalation is the pricipal object of the exercise. Truth figures in a vague sort of way, and generaly comes way behind in the list of an editors priority's. Most are a waste of good paper.
Groundbased's account of actual reports from passengers actualy there and involved, would seem to have a ring of truth. MYT is like many others is struggling to survive and this sounds like an effort above and beyond by a staff member detirmined to do his best for his company and his passengers.
The hows why's and wherefor's aside, it is a demonstration of someone trying to sort out a problem and get the job done despite the odds. In a day and age where most people are simply out for themselves and the easy way out, where trains planes and automobiles are late, cancelled or in a gridlock it makes for a refreshing read.
My hat is off to the Captain of that flight.
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You're not living in the real world. It's all very well for ground engineers to insist that any defect is repaired and signed off by a licensed aircraft engineer, but in the real world sometimes light bulbs need changing, things need a little tap with a torch, and weight switches need a bit of persuasion to operate correctly, and hey, if they then do function correctly, who's to stop the operation. The real world doesn't allow ground engineers everywhere, there are no hotel rooms to spare in Menorca, and this guy sorted the problem. So if you feel like casting the first stone step forward and see how far it gets you, but a clever and resourceful pilot got the aeroplane home, legally as far as I can see, so why don't we give him a bit of grudging respect?
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There have been some idiotic statements on this thread along with some wild speculation from so called professionals who really ought to know better. Some of them have been as wilfully stupid as the newspaper articles that this thread set out to ridicule.
Prince amongst the idiots is clearly ASFKAP with the final sentance of his post. I work for MYT in the left seat of a 757 and the culture he alludes to is not one that I recognise. Shame on you ASFKAP...you are an absolute pr*ck.
Prince amongst the idiots is clearly ASFKAP with the final sentance of his post. I work for MYT in the left seat of a 757 and the culture he alludes to is not one that I recognise. Shame on you ASFKAP...you are an absolute pr*ck.
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Not so Fantastic,
Sorry, you're absolutely wrong. While the pilot could possibly be commended for doing his best to get the pax home, and was perhaps under some pressure from MAN base, he was operating outside his qualifications. He should have said "no". You may feel that the most simple tasks are not beyond the abilities of the unqualified; they may be in practice but there is a reason why most tasks are left to those best (and legally) qualified.
You also have to consider the fact that his (well-intentioned) interfering with the air/ground system has other implications. Suppose the whole episode had had its desired conclusion - pax home and happy. It is possible that no record of his actions would ever exist.
Suppose, as a consequence of his actions, a subsequent failure/incident related to the air/ground system occurred. The last certification of any legitimate work on that system remains in force. The engineer responsible could potentially and innocently be in the frame for something he did not do.
Sorry, you're absolutely wrong. While the pilot could possibly be commended for doing his best to get the pax home, and was perhaps under some pressure from MAN base, he was operating outside his qualifications. He should have said "no". You may feel that the most simple tasks are not beyond the abilities of the unqualified; they may be in practice but there is a reason why most tasks are left to those best (and legally) qualified.
You also have to consider the fact that his (well-intentioned) interfering with the air/ground system has other implications. Suppose the whole episode had had its desired conclusion - pax home and happy. It is possible that no record of his actions would ever exist.
Suppose, as a consequence of his actions, a subsequent failure/incident related to the air/ground system occurred. The last certification of any legitimate work on that system remains in force. The engineer responsible could potentially and innocently be in the frame for something he did not do.
Last edited by Bus429; 15th Aug 2003 at 14:18.
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I dont know enough to comment on the technical issues of the 757 ground sence system , but what we have here is the press not letting the truth get in the way of a good story and a bunch of so called professionals slagging a guy who was just doing his best to get the job done without putting anyone in danger.
I am lucky enough to hold an engineers licence and to command a jet airliner and from my point of view the captain did nothing wrong , infact he he should be congratulated for his persistance in trying to get the situation sorted out.
What is crystal clear is that some of the loudest voices posting above dont have the first idea what it is like to be in command of an aircraft that has just "gone tech" and they know even less about the best way to resolve the situation.
To the captain I say "well done and I,m sorry that the press got hold of this ".
To his more viciferouse critics above all I can say is "I dont think that you have what it takes to do his job".
I am lucky enough to hold an engineers licence and to command a jet airliner and from my point of view the captain did nothing wrong , infact he he should be congratulated for his persistance in trying to get the situation sorted out.
What is crystal clear is that some of the loudest voices posting above dont have the first idea what it is like to be in command of an aircraft that has just "gone tech" and they know even less about the best way to resolve the situation.
To the captain I say "well done and I,m sorry that the press got hold of this ".
To his more viciferouse critics above all I can say is "I dont think that you have what it takes to do his job".
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Sorry, A&C - I totally disagree with you. Accidents often happen because those involved are trying to do their best, with no malice intended, without necessary back-up. Circumstances conspire against them and it spirals out of control from there.
Furthermore, as a licenced engineer, you should know better than to make remarks suggesting that some of those contributing to this post "don't have what it takes".
Get-home-itis is a potential killer.
Furthermore, as a licenced engineer, you should know better than to make remarks suggesting that some of those contributing to this post "don't have what it takes".
Get-home-itis is a potential killer.
Last edited by Bus429; 15th Aug 2003 at 18:57.
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Seems to me there is a lot of comment on this thread from those who clearly do not know what they are talking about and some from those who sadly should know better!
The company is supporting the actions of the Captain so I guess that says it all! Good to see some level heads around as well as Muppets on this thread though!
Another story blown out of all proportion by the good old British press.
The company is supporting the actions of the Captain so I guess that says it all! Good to see some level heads around as well as Muppets on this thread though!
Another story blown out of all proportion by the good old British press.
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Just to inject a fact into this thread. (Not many so far)
"The nose gear compressed logic sensing system provides logic to relays controlling stall warning and portions of the caution and warning system."
(From the Boeing 757 manual)
There is no question of thrust reversers/spoilers/self destruct mechanisms or lavatory inhibiting levers deploying.
It affects warning systems only.
All the critical stuff comes off the main gear truck tilt sensors.
"The nose gear compressed logic sensing system provides logic to relays controlling stall warning and portions of the caution and warning system."
(From the Boeing 757 manual)
There is no question of thrust reversers/spoilers/self destruct mechanisms or lavatory inhibiting levers deploying.
It affects warning systems only.
All the critical stuff comes off the main gear truck tilt sensors.
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Some may be missing the point. It is not the complexity or simplicity of the system that is at issue. He should not have involved himself to that degree. I would have thought that the systems mentioned by Bally Heck warrant sufficient concern.
I would expect the pilot's peers to defend him and reasonably so. No doubt MyTravel are only to happy to defend him - it is probable a fair amount of commercial pressure was the reason this whole episode started!
However, when we get the full story we'll probably find it never happened.
I would expect the pilot's peers to defend him and reasonably so. No doubt MyTravel are only to happy to defend him - it is probable a fair amount of commercial pressure was the reason this whole episode started!
However, when we get the full story we'll probably find it never happened.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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There have been some cold hearted callous insinuations that the newspapers might have blown this episode out of all proportion purely for their own mercenary interests. These leading some to believe that all they are good for is wrapping fish and chips in. I would like to point out however that the TV guide section can be quite usefull in detailing which rubbish not to watch, and they can be invaluable for housetraining small puppies.
In the meantime the readers of the thread all maintain a vigorous defence of their respective positions, still it would be a dull old world if we all thought said and did the same as everybody else.
In the meantime the readers of the thread all maintain a vigorous defence of their respective positions, still it would be a dull old world if we all thought said and did the same as everybody else.
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ASKAFP
As has already been pointed out by those that were there he did not ask the passengers to vote on the airworthiness of his aircraft.
Clearly you have more information than I, as you feel able to comment on his professionalism. However, those who were present seem to feel he conducted himself professionally and with consideration for his passengers. But why let the facts get in the way of a good story!
As for the technical issues and legalities I am sure with all the publicity the CAA will have looked into the problem. As far as I know they have no problem with anything he did unless of course they are part of some cover-up as well!
As has already been pointed out by those that were there he did not ask the passengers to vote on the airworthiness of his aircraft.
Clearly you have more information than I, as you feel able to comment on his professionalism. However, those who were present seem to feel he conducted himself professionally and with consideration for his passengers. But why let the facts get in the way of a good story!
As for the technical issues and legalities I am sure with all the publicity the CAA will have looked into the problem. As far as I know they have no problem with anything he did unless of course they are part of some cover-up as well!