airlines and morale
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airlines and morale
Hi
I am a journalist wih The Sunday Times, based in Glasgow and cover transport issues for the Scottish edition.
I would like to write a piece for the coming weekend (2nd Feb) about the working conditions faced by some pilots. For some time, I have heard many are on lower wages than one might expect yet still work long hours - the message posted today re: easyJet's pilots would seem to support this.
Hardly surprising in this day and age, yet pilots have greater responsibility than most. I wonder if any would be willing to speak with me, particularly those with airlines such as Ryanair, EasyJet, BA, Virgin and Go! (simply because these are the main carriers out of Scotland)?
Anonymity, if desired, is guaranteed although for my own records I would like to know who I'm speaking to.
I hope a few of you will be able to help. I can be contacted on [email protected] or direct dial 44 (0)141 420 5339.
Many Thanks.
I am a journalist wih The Sunday Times, based in Glasgow and cover transport issues for the Scottish edition.
I would like to write a piece for the coming weekend (2nd Feb) about the working conditions faced by some pilots. For some time, I have heard many are on lower wages than one might expect yet still work long hours - the message posted today re: easyJet's pilots would seem to support this.
Hardly surprising in this day and age, yet pilots have greater responsibility than most. I wonder if any would be willing to speak with me, particularly those with airlines such as Ryanair, EasyJet, BA, Virgin and Go! (simply because these are the main carriers out of Scotland)?
Anonymity, if desired, is guaranteed although for my own records I would like to know who I'm speaking to.
I hope a few of you will be able to help. I can be contacted on [email protected] or direct dial 44 (0)141 420 5339.
Many Thanks.
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Mark - Congrats and respect for being up front about your intentions.
Don't take this personally, but is the intention of your article to further damage the industry in the wake of recent events ? Or maybe that is not the intent, but what do you think would be the public perception ?
By reading these pages you know doubt have an idea as to the mistrust and basic hostility towards alleged informed correspondants who by sheer weight of inept articles, prove that they actually know nothing & are just after sensationalist stories.
The above hopefully doesn't apply to yourself ( and I'm not even hinting that it may ) but you must admit some 'stories' leave a lot to be desired !
Best wishes.
Don't take this personally, but is the intention of your article to further damage the industry in the wake of recent events ? Or maybe that is not the intent, but what do you think would be the public perception ?
By reading these pages you know doubt have an idea as to the mistrust and basic hostility towards alleged informed correspondants who by sheer weight of inept articles, prove that they actually know nothing & are just after sensationalist stories.
The above hopefully doesn't apply to yourself ( and I'm not even hinting that it may ) but you must admit some 'stories' leave a lot to be desired !
Best wishes.
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I think any article which reveals that pilots are working long hours for pay that is not commensurate to effort and which perhaps shows pilots have to fly when very tired will, by its very nature, be of concern.
The aim is not to be sensationalist - either the above is happening or it isn't. I've heard enough on the grapevine, however, to suggest the situation is becoming serious and that's why I decided to post my thoughts on the chatboard.
I think public perception will be one of concern but it's important to remember that employees are not to blame here - the airlines are.
I hope that helps but if you have any other thoughts, I'll do my best to reply - my week starts getting a bit hectic tomorrow.
best wishes
Mark.
The aim is not to be sensationalist - either the above is happening or it isn't. I've heard enough on the grapevine, however, to suggest the situation is becoming serious and that's why I decided to post my thoughts on the chatboard.
I think public perception will be one of concern but it's important to remember that employees are not to blame here - the airlines are.
I hope that helps but if you have any other thoughts, I'll do my best to reply - my week starts getting a bit hectic tomorrow.
best wishes
Mark.
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Fair point.
Although I think
applies to the industry as a whole, not just the flightdeck !
This place is a prime example !
I'll resign from this thread now, as you are aiming it at flightdeck.
What I will ask though Mark - please don't forget the groundstaff as we have a major influence on flight safety as well !
Although I think
... working long hours for pay that is not commensurate to effort ...
This place is a prime example !
I'll resign from this thread now, as you are aiming it at flightdeck.
What I will ask though Mark - please don't forget the groundstaff as we have a major influence on flight safety as well !
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Easy Street
2002: 82 flights consisting of 529 hours total flight time, plus 246 hours (before and after flight) duty time; plus 96 hours (4 days for 4 commercial deadheads); plus 8 hours in simulator; plus 40 hours recurrent ground school; plus 696 hours (29 days/nights) at hotels. Total of 1615 hours away from my home. Excluding hotel time, total hours spent "on duty:" 919
The downside is that 60% of flight time is at night, which is not fun.
The downside is that 60% of flight time is at night, which is not fun.
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macaskill1
I suggest you take a long look at the first proppossal from JAA regarding crew dutytime limitation. They are astonishing and taken to the extreme the reaction time of pilots at the end of a duty corrosponds to an alcohol level of ,008 according to Swedish experts. I don't know were this propossal is on the internet, but I'm sure someone else in here knows.
I suggest you take a long look at the first proppossal from JAA regarding crew dutytime limitation. They are astonishing and taken to the extreme the reaction time of pilots at the end of a duty corrosponds to an alcohol level of ,008 according to Swedish experts. I don't know were this propossal is on the internet, but I'm sure someone else in here knows.
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Macaskill I don't think the general public care too much about possible Pilot fatigue as aircraft are not dropping out of the sky because of it!
In this 24 hour world I have no doubt life expectancy is reduced by the level of fatigue over 35 years of time zone changes ,night flights ,radiation etc etc but it is not really a newsworthy thing IMHO. The Employers always say it is just lazy Pilots,or they say we will do what we are complaining about if we get paid more for doing it.
Every few years this question of fatigue crops up and over the past 35 years I have been in this business a lot is talked about it but commercial interests always gain the upper hand .
In this 24 hour world I have no doubt life expectancy is reduced by the level of fatigue over 35 years of time zone changes ,night flights ,radiation etc etc but it is not really a newsworthy thing IMHO. The Employers always say it is just lazy Pilots,or they say we will do what we are complaining about if we get paid more for doing it.
Every few years this question of fatigue crops up and over the past 35 years I have been in this business a lot is talked about it but commercial interests always gain the upper hand .
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Orangewing,
Ghost-rider is right. Flight safety is a team effort which includes the ops staff. Not just those of us who sit in the pointy end.
It is an attitude too.
Ghost-rider is right. Flight safety is a team effort which includes the ops staff. Not just those of us who sit in the pointy end.
It is an attitude too.
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ghostrider and saudi pc9
saudi;
agree flight safety team effort but cannot think what ops bring to the party.
ghostrider:
so what stunning piece of flight safety do you bring to the team?
agree flight safety team effort but cannot think what ops bring to the party.
ghostrider:
so what stunning piece of flight safety do you bring to the team?
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Mark
I agree with others sentiments; good on you to be upfront and try to get the facts rather than 'invent' them as many of your peers have done in the interests of sensationalism.
I would however respectfully correct the misconception that long duty hours is related to pay and therefore, by implication, increasing pay would resolve a 'fatigue issue'.
The two are not related, far from it. In fact, most in the low cost sector get paid very well, by comparison. Pay is not the core issue with the EJ pilots, nor is it the core issue with those protesting about EU FTLs. It is important that you understand this.
I agree with others sentiments; good on you to be upfront and try to get the facts rather than 'invent' them as many of your peers have done in the interests of sensationalism.
I would however respectfully correct the misconception that long duty hours is related to pay and therefore, by implication, increasing pay would resolve a 'fatigue issue'.
The two are not related, far from it. In fact, most in the low cost sector get paid very well, by comparison. Pay is not the core issue with the EJ pilots, nor is it the core issue with those protesting about EU FTLs. It is important that you understand this.
No Mr Wing we've done helicopters too!.
For your goodself and twinjet, I can think of two or three issues that have occurred in my 5 or so years of ops where intervention by various ops members, in different airlines, have contributed significantly to flight safety. One of which was the refusal to operate a charter, which had been sold and was insisted on being operated by the charter airlines management.
If you want a more comprehensive answer regarding ops' contribution to safety, start a new thread in the ops forum, if youre hard enough!
For your goodself and twinjet, I can think of two or three issues that have occurred in my 5 or so years of ops where intervention by various ops members, in different airlines, have contributed significantly to flight safety. One of which was the refusal to operate a charter, which had been sold and was insisted on being operated by the charter airlines management.
If you want a more comprehensive answer regarding ops' contribution to safety, start a new thread in the ops forum, if youre hard enough!
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Fatigue is a major problem It is exacerbated (certainly in my airline) by a CEO who is looking for loopholes in legislation and, whilst trying to be seen to be abiding by the letter of the law, is in fact attempting to ride roughshod over everything CAP371 was brought in to achieve.
Downward pressure on terms and conditions, and being expected to give more and more for less and less reward long ago took the fun out of this profession. Now, imho, it is starting to become a serious potential cause of a major incident/accident. And what happens if you indicate that you or your crew are not fit to operate up to 3 hours extra (discretion)? You are gently reminded that there are a lot of unemployed pilots out there who will take your job tomorrow. Its true as well. So the system feeds on itself, reducing safety margins and making CEOs and directors nice bonusses in the process.
Time for something to be done Mr Macaskill. Dig Deep and Go For It! Please.
Downward pressure on terms and conditions, and being expected to give more and more for less and less reward long ago took the fun out of this profession. Now, imho, it is starting to become a serious potential cause of a major incident/accident. And what happens if you indicate that you or your crew are not fit to operate up to 3 hours extra (discretion)? You are gently reminded that there are a lot of unemployed pilots out there who will take your job tomorrow. Its true as well. So the system feeds on itself, reducing safety margins and making CEOs and directors nice bonusses in the process.
Time for something to be done Mr Macaskill. Dig Deep and Go For It! Please.
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TJ et all
We have a difficult enough time with ezy management who have no idea what we do or why we exist,without having to explain to people who should know better. I suggest a familiarisation into ops if you can find it,in the meantime check your plogs very carefully or is that not a safety issue?I could go on.....
We have a difficult enough time with ezy management who have no idea what we do or why we exist,without having to explain to people who should know better. I suggest a familiarisation into ops if you can find it,in the meantime check your plogs very carefully or is that not a safety issue?I could go on.....
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T & Cs
BIG E.
I'm sure we all agree that everyone in the team contribes to flight safety. However I think the idea of the original post was to find out about fatigue and other factors affecting flightcrew.
I, for one, appreciate the support given by most Ops, crewing, & rostering personnel.
NJ
I'm sure we all agree that everyone in the team contribes to flight safety. However I think the idea of the original post was to find out about fatigue and other factors affecting flightcrew.
I, for one, appreciate the support given by most Ops, crewing, & rostering personnel.
NJ
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No Joke,. . . .you must be joking!! Do you work for Heaven Air,
it sure sounds like it. Most airlines in my humble opinion do not give a rat's *** about fatique. It's all about the beans now, profit, profit, and survival. Sure we would all be out of a job if. . .,
but I have seen the balance tipping over veeeery slowly to the side that is not in our favour, it used to be a nice job but not anymore. And for the starter of this topic, look at 'pilots against more hours', there is some really good stuff in there.
it sure sounds like it. Most airlines in my humble opinion do not give a rat's *** about fatique. It's all about the beans now, profit, profit, and survival. Sure we would all be out of a job if. . .,
but I have seen the balance tipping over veeeery slowly to the side that is not in our favour, it used to be a nice job but not anymore. And for the starter of this topic, look at 'pilots against more hours', there is some really good stuff in there.
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Thanks Mark, I’m sure that you will seriously represent the concerns of flight crew, but in a week when we’ve seen such blatant distortions and crude stereotypes trotted out by the Mail, you might forgive us all taking this with an unhealthy pile of salt.
My primary concerns are as follows:
- the large volume of legislation being thrust upon us by the administration in the name of ‘security’, but more to do with ‘spin’, leading to flight crew members being boroscoped in public every time we go to fly our own plane. What are we going to do? Hijack ourselves?
- Similarly the proscribing of family members accompanying us on the flight deck because they are a ‘security risk’, as opposed to some bloke I’ve never met with an ID he could have made up on his PC.
- the cynical Jihad about so-called drinking and flying whilst conspiring to make us fly unsafe hours, completely in the face of legislation designed to avoid fatigue which is a real killer.
- This illusion about pilot salaries. My headline salary might look quite attractive, but factor in the relative lack of extras, and the long hours, separation etc and it doesn’t look quite so rosy. Compare that to some of my neighbours who have company car, assisted house purchase, health care for the whole family, airmiles, school fees, and of course the annual bonus which for one computer nerd round the corner was £100k last year. That makes me the pauper of the neighbourhood.
- The staggeringly inept standard of British management in general and airline management in particular. Most of the pilots in the UK are proud professionals who do the job regardless to the best of their abilities and very successfully. Most of the suits we are forced to put up with see this loyalty as a sign of weakness. They continue to pile more and more responsibility on the pilot whilst taking away his authority and demeaning his status in favour of a ‘flatter’ management structure.
You’ll find that most pilots will tell you that once the aeroplane is safely airborne and away from the suits, the operation runs in a quiet, calm, efficient manner until once again we come down to Earth and the stress of dealing with assholes.
The reason that management hate pilots is that we refuse to play the game of bollitics that their sad lives revolve around. Pilots hate management because the qualities that make a good pilot are completely, diametrically opposed to the qualities exhibited by managers.
I’m sorry to rant, but if you worked for a company like mine you would encounter this everyday. Pilots have accountability and little authority. Managers have authority, but little or no accountability.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
My primary concerns are as follows:
- the large volume of legislation being thrust upon us by the administration in the name of ‘security’, but more to do with ‘spin’, leading to flight crew members being boroscoped in public every time we go to fly our own plane. What are we going to do? Hijack ourselves?
- Similarly the proscribing of family members accompanying us on the flight deck because they are a ‘security risk’, as opposed to some bloke I’ve never met with an ID he could have made up on his PC.
- the cynical Jihad about so-called drinking and flying whilst conspiring to make us fly unsafe hours, completely in the face of legislation designed to avoid fatigue which is a real killer.
- This illusion about pilot salaries. My headline salary might look quite attractive, but factor in the relative lack of extras, and the long hours, separation etc and it doesn’t look quite so rosy. Compare that to some of my neighbours who have company car, assisted house purchase, health care for the whole family, airmiles, school fees, and of course the annual bonus which for one computer nerd round the corner was £100k last year. That makes me the pauper of the neighbourhood.
- The staggeringly inept standard of British management in general and airline management in particular. Most of the pilots in the UK are proud professionals who do the job regardless to the best of their abilities and very successfully. Most of the suits we are forced to put up with see this loyalty as a sign of weakness. They continue to pile more and more responsibility on the pilot whilst taking away his authority and demeaning his status in favour of a ‘flatter’ management structure.
You’ll find that most pilots will tell you that once the aeroplane is safely airborne and away from the suits, the operation runs in a quiet, calm, efficient manner until once again we come down to Earth and the stress of dealing with assholes.
The reason that management hate pilots is that we refuse to play the game of bollitics that their sad lives revolve around. Pilots hate management because the qualities that make a good pilot are completely, diametrically opposed to the qualities exhibited by managers.
I’m sorry to rant, but if you worked for a company like mine you would encounter this everyday. Pilots have accountability and little authority. Managers have authority, but little or no accountability.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
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Mac:
You've obviously picked up on a thread and would like a story. There is one, but it needs to be treated with great care; even more so than many Panorama exposees.
The debate is most certainly not about money. The profession is vocational and that is being abused by management. Much of aviation has become a sweat shop existance, (by comparison to other 21st century professions). Crews are treated as cost items, not assets. The similarity with the health service springs to mind. There are limits of work set out by the CAA's of each country. They are LIMITS, and within those there are guidelines. The guidelines are ignored and management treat the limits like the Italian tax system. It's a good game to find the loop holes, whether they exsist or not.
Generally, in Europe, the lot of the average employee has improved dramatically over the past 10 years since various EU legislation has been introduced. Health & Safety at work has improved the working enviroment. Public transport was exempt from much of these rules and the quality of life has deteriorated beyond a joke.
Having said that, there are some good company's, namely the majors; most likely because they have had a strong union for many years. Indeed, most pilot unions were formed within the flag carriers. Being a commercial pilot is as different as liquorice allsorts. There is no national standard of employment; it just depends who you work for.
To make an accurate assessment of the profession will take great care, delicacy, honesty and no pre-conceived ideas. There is no broad brush to cover all, and thus may not be as easy to present as it first appears.
PS.
Roobarb: Well said.
"Pilots hate management." IMHO this is caused because most managements dislike pilots, all crews. They make their money from transporting pax. That's easy becasue they will do as they are told!! The a/c will fly all day & night, and with enough fuel, for ever. The bean counters hate the fact that they have to have crews. They are the limiting factor. If pax would fly on an unmanned automated a/c the financial boys would love it; until the first prang.
What amazes me is that all except one excellent management team I've worked for, most airline managaments operate 180' to what is considered good man-management practices. Morale is not consdered an asset. We are part of a machine, taken for granted. It erks them that this component is a 'lifed item' (i.e.FTL's) and not an 'on condition item'. And that the service life is too short.
What erks us, about them, is that if we displayed the same level of competance and desicion making that they do, we would fail our regular checks, never pass a command course and ultimately be kicked out. Somehow that never seems to happen upstairs.
Perhaps the definition of accountability you were talking about.
You've obviously picked up on a thread and would like a story. There is one, but it needs to be treated with great care; even more so than many Panorama exposees.
The debate is most certainly not about money. The profession is vocational and that is being abused by management. Much of aviation has become a sweat shop existance, (by comparison to other 21st century professions). Crews are treated as cost items, not assets. The similarity with the health service springs to mind. There are limits of work set out by the CAA's of each country. They are LIMITS, and within those there are guidelines. The guidelines are ignored and management treat the limits like the Italian tax system. It's a good game to find the loop holes, whether they exsist or not.
Generally, in Europe, the lot of the average employee has improved dramatically over the past 10 years since various EU legislation has been introduced. Health & Safety at work has improved the working enviroment. Public transport was exempt from much of these rules and the quality of life has deteriorated beyond a joke.
Having said that, there are some good company's, namely the majors; most likely because they have had a strong union for many years. Indeed, most pilot unions were formed within the flag carriers. Being a commercial pilot is as different as liquorice allsorts. There is no national standard of employment; it just depends who you work for.
To make an accurate assessment of the profession will take great care, delicacy, honesty and no pre-conceived ideas. There is no broad brush to cover all, and thus may not be as easy to present as it first appears.
PS.
Roobarb: Well said.
"Pilots hate management." IMHO this is caused because most managements dislike pilots, all crews. They make their money from transporting pax. That's easy becasue they will do as they are told!! The a/c will fly all day & night, and with enough fuel, for ever. The bean counters hate the fact that they have to have crews. They are the limiting factor. If pax would fly on an unmanned automated a/c the financial boys would love it; until the first prang.
What amazes me is that all except one excellent management team I've worked for, most airline managaments operate 180' to what is considered good man-management practices. Morale is not consdered an asset. We are part of a machine, taken for granted. It erks them that this component is a 'lifed item' (i.e.FTL's) and not an 'on condition item'. And that the service life is too short.
What erks us, about them, is that if we displayed the same level of competance and desicion making that they do, we would fail our regular checks, never pass a command course and ultimately be kicked out. Somehow that never seems to happen upstairs.
Perhaps the definition of accountability you were talking about.
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Mac,
Thanks for your open approach to us all asking for information for your article.
By the responses you will probably already have received, plus the posts here, I'm sure you have already appreciated the myriad number of facets contained within a fairly compact and dynamic industry.
I cannot disagree with and wholeheartedly endorse just about all of the comments made so far on conditions within the industry. Note I refer to conditions and not pay.
A number of the more mature pilots have reasonable bank balances mainly because they do not have the time to reduce the balance! The new guys? I do not understand how some survive.
Just three points I would ask you to keep in mind:
1) Are we pilots, particularly those who have been in the industry 20 to 30 years, a bunch of habitual moaning whingers?
2) How many totally positive responses in respect of conditions have you received?
3) If you ask, how many pilots will allow you to quote their name in any article? Remember these guys do not fear to make daily decisions manifestly affecting the lives of hundreds of people in their care.
What they do fear is the management!
Thanks for your open approach to us all asking for information for your article.
By the responses you will probably already have received, plus the posts here, I'm sure you have already appreciated the myriad number of facets contained within a fairly compact and dynamic industry.
I cannot disagree with and wholeheartedly endorse just about all of the comments made so far on conditions within the industry. Note I refer to conditions and not pay.
A number of the more mature pilots have reasonable bank balances mainly because they do not have the time to reduce the balance! The new guys? I do not understand how some survive.
Just three points I would ask you to keep in mind:
1) Are we pilots, particularly those who have been in the industry 20 to 30 years, a bunch of habitual moaning whingers?
2) How many totally positive responses in respect of conditions have you received?
3) If you ask, how many pilots will allow you to quote their name in any article? Remember these guys do not fear to make daily decisions manifestly affecting the lives of hundreds of people in their care.
What they do fear is the management!