airlines and morale
Those who assume that pilots can simply leave the industry without losing homes, cars etc only exhibit their ignorance or lack of true character (in being able to acknowledge the reality), and might be working in management, which, at some companies, requires little in the way of scruples.
An airline's CEO recently met with employees near an airport. When a pilot directly asked him whether he would also accept pay concessions, he started shaking his finger at the pilot (they say that his face turned red...) and talked about working very hard for his money (or for his "golden parachute"?). He also stated that his pay is much less than of Delta Airlines' CEO, Mr. Mullins.
Wow, what a shining example of top executive leadership. I hope that he is much better prepared for direct questions when such leaders go again to Congress to beg the govt to reduce the airline ticket tax, which can be about 25% of the average fare.
An airline's CEO recently met with employees near an airport. When a pilot directly asked him whether he would also accept pay concessions, he started shaking his finger at the pilot (they say that his face turned red...) and talked about working very hard for his money (or for his "golden parachute"?). He also stated that his pay is much less than of Delta Airlines' CEO, Mr. Mullins.
Wow, what a shining example of top executive leadership. I hope that he is much better prepared for direct questions when such leaders go again to Congress to beg the govt to reduce the airline ticket tax, which can be about 25% of the average fare.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 17th Feb 2003 at 00:22.
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Looking at some of these coments, l feel I have to add my two peneth.
It is most definitely not the case that long haul pilots are less worked than short haul having been on sh for 6 years and now on lh I am in a position to judge.
We have flight time limitations, sure but these are limitations and should not be used as a model for rostering.
Within these limitations is time specified for positioning away from base, however if the airline cannot make this work then all they appear to have to do is contact the good ol CAA and get a get out clause AKA Florida 2 variation, this gives a load of extra time for a two crew operation from LHR psn LGW - MIA for instance. 24 hours late we do the return sctor. Two days off and we can start all over again.
Most of our passengers are exhausted after this type of trip, this after sitting watching an in-flight movie and being waited on hand and foot. No thought about levels, fuel wx etc.
Most pilots can now no longer afford property around major airports so; generally have to either commute via another flight or a good few hours on M25 etc. This of course is not considered on the "limitations" nor is it considered a safety issue after a 14-hour day to drive home for 4 hours through the rush hour.
Once arrived at the airport parking the car is yet another issue that takes a good 30 minutes from your day.
We could all leave as you say. This would have lots of implications two of which are "we are pilots" what else do we do? Retrain after spending lots of effort and money in getting to this position.
Managers can generally manage but pilots fly aircraft full stop.
Secondly we are supposed to be professional and if there is a safety issue then we should address it and not turn s blind eye as you suggest.
It is most definitely not the case that long haul pilots are less worked than short haul having been on sh for 6 years and now on lh I am in a position to judge.
We have flight time limitations, sure but these are limitations and should not be used as a model for rostering.
Within these limitations is time specified for positioning away from base, however if the airline cannot make this work then all they appear to have to do is contact the good ol CAA and get a get out clause AKA Florida 2 variation, this gives a load of extra time for a two crew operation from LHR psn LGW - MIA for instance. 24 hours late we do the return sctor. Two days off and we can start all over again.
Most of our passengers are exhausted after this type of trip, this after sitting watching an in-flight movie and being waited on hand and foot. No thought about levels, fuel wx etc.
Most pilots can now no longer afford property around major airports so; generally have to either commute via another flight or a good few hours on M25 etc. This of course is not considered on the "limitations" nor is it considered a safety issue after a 14-hour day to drive home for 4 hours through the rush hour.
Once arrived at the airport parking the car is yet another issue that takes a good 30 minutes from your day.
We could all leave as you say. This would have lots of implications two of which are "we are pilots" what else do we do? Retrain after spending lots of effort and money in getting to this position.
Managers can generally manage but pilots fly aircraft full stop.
Secondly we are supposed to be professional and if there is a safety issue then we should address it and not turn s blind eye as you suggest.
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Complain?! Me?! Of Course I do! Thank Me Later!!
SN,
Your viewpoint is rather shortsighted, and reveals your ignorance of flight operations. Pilots (you label as complainers) have been key players in improving safety. Some rules that we operate under have evolved and been vetted with pilot input, still there is a give and take with any policy, the competing interests of executives weighed against the safety interests of the pilots, this will always remain an issue of contention, so participate constructively or step aside for people who offer some breadth and depth to their posts.
I don't think you would want to be operated on by a doctor who was in the 24th hour of his duty day, so why would your expectations be any different for a pilot? I would hope that all positive standards would become universal, right now my union requires double crew for flights over 11.00 hours, believe me it really helps, because there are some routes that are just shy of triggering the double crew rule, and you can really feel the pain on those legs, usually on descent, weather is down to mins, and you might have to divert, and the radios are busy. I could not imagine having to land and then go on to another destination after such a long flight, like some of my brethern have to, that really needs to be fixed, or else we all will be doing those.
If you want to call me a complainer then go right ahead because I plan on "complaining" about safety issues until I retire, and whenever you get to your destination on a flight, be sure you thank the other "complainers."
"Safety Before Profits"
Your viewpoint is rather shortsighted, and reveals your ignorance of flight operations. Pilots (you label as complainers) have been key players in improving safety. Some rules that we operate under have evolved and been vetted with pilot input, still there is a give and take with any policy, the competing interests of executives weighed against the safety interests of the pilots, this will always remain an issue of contention, so participate constructively or step aside for people who offer some breadth and depth to their posts.
I don't think you would want to be operated on by a doctor who was in the 24th hour of his duty day, so why would your expectations be any different for a pilot? I would hope that all positive standards would become universal, right now my union requires double crew for flights over 11.00 hours, believe me it really helps, because there are some routes that are just shy of triggering the double crew rule, and you can really feel the pain on those legs, usually on descent, weather is down to mins, and you might have to divert, and the radios are busy. I could not imagine having to land and then go on to another destination after such a long flight, like some of my brethern have to, that really needs to be fixed, or else we all will be doing those.
If you want to call me a complainer then go right ahead because I plan on "complaining" about safety issues until I retire, and whenever you get to your destination on a flight, be sure you thank the other "complainers."
"Safety Before Profits"
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Ignition Override
It's taken me a while to come across this thread. Now, to bring things back to your question:
The European JAA has not yet agreed on a common European duty/flight time limitations (Jar Ops 1 subpart Q), so it's still currently done on an individual national basis. As different countries/airlines have different regulations this has surely an impact on operating costs.
Here in Spain the flt/duty limitations are spelled out on CO 16-B. Duty time (usually the limiting factor) is based on crew reporting local time and number of ldgs and so are rest periods. Maximum hours/minimum days off for any 28 day or yearly are also limited (it's all pretty complicated just to give rosterers a bit of a hard time). Unlike FAR 121 a heavy crew is required if flt time exceeds 10 or 11 hrs (again based on reporting time). Duty limits can be streched up to 2 hrs at capt's discretion for unforseeable circumstances (a report has to be made).
Now, since this reg allows airlines a generous width, individual airline contracts further restrict legal flt/duty/rest limits. (Labour agreements obviously cannot be less restrictive than regs).
And yes, here too this (especially its horrors) is the favourite subject at any crew lounge or whenever any number of CMs get together. Hope it helps clarify. Cheers.
It's taken me a while to come across this thread. Now, to bring things back to your question:
The European JAA has not yet agreed on a common European duty/flight time limitations (Jar Ops 1 subpart Q), so it's still currently done on an individual national basis. As different countries/airlines have different regulations this has surely an impact on operating costs.
Here in Spain the flt/duty limitations are spelled out on CO 16-B. Duty time (usually the limiting factor) is based on crew reporting local time and number of ldgs and so are rest periods. Maximum hours/minimum days off for any 28 day or yearly are also limited (it's all pretty complicated just to give rosterers a bit of a hard time). Unlike FAR 121 a heavy crew is required if flt time exceeds 10 or 11 hrs (again based on reporting time). Duty limits can be streched up to 2 hrs at capt's discretion for unforseeable circumstances (a report has to be made).
Now, since this reg allows airlines a generous width, individual airline contracts further restrict legal flt/duty/rest limits. (Labour agreements obviously cannot be less restrictive than regs).
And yes, here too this (especially its horrors) is the favourite subject at any crew lounge or whenever any number of CMs get together. Hope it helps clarify. Cheers.
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Airlines and Morale
Well well, INSPITE OF BEING HALFWAY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD, the problems seem so familiar and common.We pilots seem to attract so much hostility from management and are all the time projected as overpaid and underworked.In the process actually we land up fattening the pay packets of the Directors and CEOs who risk nothing and yet gain everything.The system feeds on itself as there are enough pilots available to step in where a few leave so where does thatn take YOU??Its a miserable situation!!!
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Why keep bringing fatigue back on the table when tackling work load ? Isn't private life important either ? Are we the only profession that will have to cross out that aspect of life ?
I dream of a reunion of all European pilots and of a major strike that will lead to more normal paces for the same money.
BALPA in the UK, Ver.cockpit in Germany of SNPL in France are now becoming nothing if playing alone. They now need to get together and agree on what our prefession should look like, regarless of the type of airline you work for (loCo vs regular v charter...)
Are we just too stupid and individualistic to achieve a pan-european union ?
I dream of a reunion of all European pilots and of a major strike that will lead to more normal paces for the same money.
BALPA in the UK, Ver.cockpit in Germany of SNPL in France are now becoming nothing if playing alone. They now need to get together and agree on what our prefession should look like, regarless of the type of airline you work for (loCo vs regular v charter...)
Are we just too stupid and individualistic to achieve a pan-european union ?
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Is that not what the ECA was supposed to achieve? They were blowing the trumpet a few years ago about their negotiations with the Commission about FTL's. I've heard nothing further. Was it set up just to be a bean feast for the self appointed few?
I've asked this many times, and here again. In the early 90's the EU introduced the Health & Safety at Work Act plus other Worker's Charter parameters. Public transport was excluded, for a short period (undefined). Kinnock said that the companies should introduce compensation measures for it's employees until a more longterm solutiion could be found. The improved conditions of work enviroment enjoyed by ground (Office & factory) staff could not be matched in an aeroplane etc. e.g. meal breaks, working space volume, shift patterns. etc.
This compenstaion, for us crews, could only be realised in either shorter working periods or extra time off.
This has never happened, indeed things have got worse.
Has anyone had any kind of compensation package introduced in their company? I've asked this question to BALPA and ECA.
NO RELPY! Someone must know the truth.
What is true is the comment about social life. This is not just about working hours is about the manner of work rosters. I found it impossible in recent years to be a member of any sports team or enroll in night classes or do anything that reocurred on a fixed day or at a fixed time. The various rostering departments over the past few years refused to give what they saw as preferential treatment to anyone.
My AME's all said that a balance between work and chosen activity in free time was an essential element of good helath. It was impossible in most airlines, and with the increase in work load, I often didn't have the energy, or spare time, anyway. There are too many jobbers to be done on the precious days off at home.
There is too much 'turning the blind eye' by the CAA. They issue guidelines to roster departments but do not police them. Result? Airlines roster to the limits in a very unsympathetic manner. What do the FOI's do? The CAA calls itself the SRG Safety Regulation Group. Joke. Everytime there has been a conflict between commerce and personnel duty matters guess whose side held sway??
Come on ECA. Do you still exist and what are you doing about these FTL's? Who are your consultants? Crews from the majors. What do they know outside their cosy enviroment? I've worked short/long-haul charter/schedule for 9 airlines in 5 EU countries. I was finished off by an low-coster and quit. I've sent messages to ECA offering to help with firsthand experience. No reply.
I've sent messages to Brian Simpson and received a kind reply. Bit of a contrast there. Sadly, he said that this was the first letter laying out a case; all the others had been abusive.
This is too important to become emotional, entrenched or counter-poductive. For gawd's sake this has been going on for over 10 years and we seem no closer to agreement. Could it be that the boys & girls in the majors have their own internal cap agreements, so there is no rush forthem. On the outside the rest of the guys are being shafted every which way and need help quickly.
All CAA approved ops manuals I've read include paragraphs about the connection bewteen morale and saftey; yet they turn a blind eye, again, to what is the well known dire state of general morale. The biggest gripe is rostering, in every country and every company I can think of. The effect on morale and family life has been well publicised. The total conflict with all CRM training is plain for all to see, those who wish too.
It is about time the various authorities were made, perhaps by the ECA, to face up to their responsibilities in this field and not be the apparent puppets of the bean counters.
I've asked this many times, and here again. In the early 90's the EU introduced the Health & Safety at Work Act plus other Worker's Charter parameters. Public transport was excluded, for a short period (undefined). Kinnock said that the companies should introduce compensation measures for it's employees until a more longterm solutiion could be found. The improved conditions of work enviroment enjoyed by ground (Office & factory) staff could not be matched in an aeroplane etc. e.g. meal breaks, working space volume, shift patterns. etc.
This compenstaion, for us crews, could only be realised in either shorter working periods or extra time off.
This has never happened, indeed things have got worse.
Has anyone had any kind of compensation package introduced in their company? I've asked this question to BALPA and ECA.
NO RELPY! Someone must know the truth.
What is true is the comment about social life. This is not just about working hours is about the manner of work rosters. I found it impossible in recent years to be a member of any sports team or enroll in night classes or do anything that reocurred on a fixed day or at a fixed time. The various rostering departments over the past few years refused to give what they saw as preferential treatment to anyone.
My AME's all said that a balance between work and chosen activity in free time was an essential element of good helath. It was impossible in most airlines, and with the increase in work load, I often didn't have the energy, or spare time, anyway. There are too many jobbers to be done on the precious days off at home.
There is too much 'turning the blind eye' by the CAA. They issue guidelines to roster departments but do not police them. Result? Airlines roster to the limits in a very unsympathetic manner. What do the FOI's do? The CAA calls itself the SRG Safety Regulation Group. Joke. Everytime there has been a conflict between commerce and personnel duty matters guess whose side held sway??
Come on ECA. Do you still exist and what are you doing about these FTL's? Who are your consultants? Crews from the majors. What do they know outside their cosy enviroment? I've worked short/long-haul charter/schedule for 9 airlines in 5 EU countries. I was finished off by an low-coster and quit. I've sent messages to ECA offering to help with firsthand experience. No reply.
I've sent messages to Brian Simpson and received a kind reply. Bit of a contrast there. Sadly, he said that this was the first letter laying out a case; all the others had been abusive.
This is too important to become emotional, entrenched or counter-poductive. For gawd's sake this has been going on for over 10 years and we seem no closer to agreement. Could it be that the boys & girls in the majors have their own internal cap agreements, so there is no rush forthem. On the outside the rest of the guys are being shafted every which way and need help quickly.
All CAA approved ops manuals I've read include paragraphs about the connection bewteen morale and saftey; yet they turn a blind eye, again, to what is the well known dire state of general morale. The biggest gripe is rostering, in every country and every company I can think of. The effect on morale and family life has been well publicised. The total conflict with all CRM training is plain for all to see, those who wish too.
It is about time the various authorities were made, perhaps by the ECA, to face up to their responsibilities in this field and not be the apparent puppets of the bean counters.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Like 'TE RANGI', I had missed this thread, and the recent article from the IPA about the proposed EU FTLs woke me up to it. From a shorthaul pilot's point of view, the effect they would have on my life would be significant and would, I think, generate a need for larger PREDICTABLE blocks of days off to allow one's 'private life' as 'bijave' puts it to recover.
Throw in the recent decision to allow US Airways to trash its salary scheme and I ask 'What morale'!
Throw in the recent decision to allow US Airways to trash its salary scheme and I ask 'What morale'!
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From an early post:
That’s not a lot of time spent in the profession. There are corporate middle managers and employees making far less then airline pilots working 50-60 hours every week. Some even carry beepers so they can respond to computer problems a 2:00 am.
Total of 1615 hours away from my home
That’s not a lot of time spent in the profession. There are corporate middle managers and employees making far less then airline pilots working 50-60 hours every week. Some even carry beepers so they can respond to computer problems a 2:00 am.
