airlines and morale
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<<The truth is I still love flying and don't want to do anything else, but I can seriously see myself eventually losing my medical if I don't get a more reasonable flying job.<<
I couldn't agree more. My guess is that airline flying will increasingly become a short term career option for people in their twenties and thirties. Airlines will increasingly use training pay back schemes to reduce investment in training. Savings will be made on pensions, incremental salaries and lack of seniority. The overall depth of experience will reduce. This ultimately represents a degradation in safety.
However, this is innapropriate because:
A. People have a right to work in a reasonable way without being continually overtired or stretched in their task.
B. The task has become a lot more complicated and demanding especially post 9/11.
C. The only real issue is ticket price. So what if prices rose to provide better safety margins?
I couldn't agree more. My guess is that airline flying will increasingly become a short term career option for people in their twenties and thirties. Airlines will increasingly use training pay back schemes to reduce investment in training. Savings will be made on pensions, incremental salaries and lack of seniority. The overall depth of experience will reduce. This ultimately represents a degradation in safety.
However, this is innapropriate because:
A. People have a right to work in a reasonable way without being continually overtired or stretched in their task.
B. The task has become a lot more complicated and demanding especially post 9/11.
C. The only real issue is ticket price. So what if prices rose to provide better safety margins?
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I agree that this should be expanded to other airline personnel...as a station manager with a major airline since 9/11 my workload has quadrupled,from running one station to four and expanded responsibilities in Europe,....with of course no extra money.In a recent five day period I had meetings in Rome,Manchester,Dublin,Shannon,Gatwick and Washington DC.My average daily email count is 100plus......I'm not complaining,no point, just have to get on with it or find another job, but this should be a good example of what 9/11 meant to a number of airlines as they struggle to survive.
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Someone, in an earlier post, mentioned the holy grail of command and how quickly it can be obtained; implying a lowering of standards. When I started in this game the common threshold was 5000hrs to be considered eligable. There were other criteria, but this was a base point. If the candidate was exceptional and had been in the company for many years, it might be lowered to 4000. Now, 3000 seems to be the norm. Hours aren't everything, it's the quality of those hours; short-haul v long-haul etc. However, hours does identify exposure to the enviroment. A reduction of 2000 hours is about 3 years less exposure. 3000 hours, after flying school, is only about 4 years experience. Given that the chappie in the right seat could be a rookie, I do not believe 4 years is enough exposure time, especially when it is often the captain who has to make the desicions, even about ground handling matters down route. In the second and lower level airlines, the organisational back-up is minimal. There are no station managers. The general answer from mission control is "you're on the spot. do what you think's best."
On the technical side, 4 years is a short time to have experienced any significant snags or querks; the sort of apparently minor events, that if mishandled can become major ones. The more so in our 2 crew ever more sophisticated a/c.
2 experienced crew members can, even if a little tired, keep the show on the rails by drawing on experience. Under the same levels of tiredness, a raw crew IMHO are more susceptible to mistakes, possibly because the monitoring process might be weakened. Shoot me down if you will; it's only a discussion point.
The matter of total cockpit crew hours (experience) has been raised before. I felt it was too lightly dismissed by the companies.
Regarding pricing and the publics attitude to crew T's & C's; and the idea that they only travel because of the price. This is certainly true in the LCA's. Many of the pax are flying for the first time because it's so cheap. The enviroment is bursting at the seams. The delays are contributed to by the massive rise in traffic at a faster rate than the system can adjust. I thought the airports planning forum and scheduling committtees were supposed to prevent this over burdening. Seems it's not quite right, yet. There was once a phrase in the package holiday sector, when people were decrying the loss of ethnic values in some countries whose only major income is tourisim; "We are polluting the world with people." That's what low pricing does. The demand become greater than the supply of experienced crews. By lowering the thresholds you can increase supply.
Any views??
On the technical side, 4 years is a short time to have experienced any significant snags or querks; the sort of apparently minor events, that if mishandled can become major ones. The more so in our 2 crew ever more sophisticated a/c.
2 experienced crew members can, even if a little tired, keep the show on the rails by drawing on experience. Under the same levels of tiredness, a raw crew IMHO are more susceptible to mistakes, possibly because the monitoring process might be weakened. Shoot me down if you will; it's only a discussion point.
The matter of total cockpit crew hours (experience) has been raised before. I felt it was too lightly dismissed by the companies.
Regarding pricing and the publics attitude to crew T's & C's; and the idea that they only travel because of the price. This is certainly true in the LCA's. Many of the pax are flying for the first time because it's so cheap. The enviroment is bursting at the seams. The delays are contributed to by the massive rise in traffic at a faster rate than the system can adjust. I thought the airports planning forum and scheduling committtees were supposed to prevent this over burdening. Seems it's not quite right, yet. There was once a phrase in the package holiday sector, when people were decrying the loss of ethnic values in some countries whose only major income is tourisim; "We are polluting the world with people." That's what low pricing does. The demand become greater than the supply of experienced crews. By lowering the thresholds you can increase supply.
Any views??
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macaskill
One area you might usefully investigate is legislation - i.e. pursue ministers, etc.
The Working Hours Directive leading to Regulations (1998, which became effective in December 1999), limits hours, specifies breaks, etc, BUT EXCLUDES (among other sectors) TRANSPORT - pilots (and train, bus, lorry drivers, etc) work in Transport!
There are obvious and stated reasons why Transport was excluded but perhaps you could raise questions about why the work/life balance of factory workers, et al, is protected whilst that of people, equally deserving anyway, whose personal actions/reactions do, everyday, directly, and at times tragically, affect the lives of the general public, was omitted. Strength of the Transport Industry lobby? Complexity? 24/7 operations? This is a political question, most easily solved by legislation rather than unions locally fighting T&C's. The more public outcry, to balance the powerful industry lobby, the better- so power to your pen, macaskill.
"I still need more healthy rest in order to work at my best. My health is the main capital I have and I want to administer it intelligently."
Ernest Hemingway
WE (not a pilot!)
One area you might usefully investigate is legislation - i.e. pursue ministers, etc.
The Working Hours Directive leading to Regulations (1998, which became effective in December 1999), limits hours, specifies breaks, etc, BUT EXCLUDES (among other sectors) TRANSPORT - pilots (and train, bus, lorry drivers, etc) work in Transport!
There are obvious and stated reasons why Transport was excluded but perhaps you could raise questions about why the work/life balance of factory workers, et al, is protected whilst that of people, equally deserving anyway, whose personal actions/reactions do, everyday, directly, and at times tragically, affect the lives of the general public, was omitted. Strength of the Transport Industry lobby? Complexity? 24/7 operations? This is a political question, most easily solved by legislation rather than unions locally fighting T&C's. The more public outcry, to balance the powerful industry lobby, the better- so power to your pen, macaskill.
"I still need more healthy rest in order to work at my best. My health is the main capital I have and I want to administer it intelligently."
Ernest Hemingway
WE (not a pilot!)
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I do not post on this thread as I am not a pro, but this time it is different.
It seems that I have made the right decision not to fly commercially. A friend who is a captain in one of the airlines have arrange a jump seat ride for me, talking with the crew and my friend convinced me that the only way to kill an hobby and a passion is to turn it into a profession.
I am involved in aviation for many years now. In a previous life, while working for a large a/c manufacturing company the union called for a strike, they wanted improved pay and conditions. The company was heading into bad weather as a major project was on the balance. I have disagreed with the union and started my own campaign. I called against the strike and suggested that the work-force agree to an average of 10% reduction in salary if the management guarantee to avoid forced redundancies, I was the only one who was willing to do it, the rest thought that I was drunk. Ten months latter 18,000 people lost their jobs. It is in your power to change the way you work, one person can’t do it, all of you can. Do not be afraid to face the management, they can not operate without you and they can not replace you very easily. If your union (BALPA or whatever) is good for nothing it is up to you to change the situation, you have elected them, no one will fight you battles but you. Stop complaining and prepare your case, fight the PR front, educated the public, only public opinion can make the CAA and your management changes the way they operate and you work. They will tell the world how much you earn, be ready to tell them that you are willing to wave some of it in return for rest time (don’t worry, the pay will go up 4 years latter anyway). There will be casualties on the way, you, yes you, the one who reads it might be one of them. Are you willing to fight for your beliefs and professional pride? No? Then do not complain.
It seems that I have made the right decision not to fly commercially. A friend who is a captain in one of the airlines have arrange a jump seat ride for me, talking with the crew and my friend convinced me that the only way to kill an hobby and a passion is to turn it into a profession.
I am involved in aviation for many years now. In a previous life, while working for a large a/c manufacturing company the union called for a strike, they wanted improved pay and conditions. The company was heading into bad weather as a major project was on the balance. I have disagreed with the union and started my own campaign. I called against the strike and suggested that the work-force agree to an average of 10% reduction in salary if the management guarantee to avoid forced redundancies, I was the only one who was willing to do it, the rest thought that I was drunk. Ten months latter 18,000 people lost their jobs. It is in your power to change the way you work, one person can’t do it, all of you can. Do not be afraid to face the management, they can not operate without you and they can not replace you very easily. If your union (BALPA or whatever) is good for nothing it is up to you to change the situation, you have elected them, no one will fight you battles but you. Stop complaining and prepare your case, fight the PR front, educated the public, only public opinion can make the CAA and your management changes the way they operate and you work. They will tell the world how much you earn, be ready to tell them that you are willing to wave some of it in return for rest time (don’t worry, the pay will go up 4 years latter anyway). There will be casualties on the way, you, yes you, the one who reads it might be one of them. Are you willing to fight for your beliefs and professional pride? No? Then do not complain.
I agree with the fact that we are all being pushed more and more. I wince a the though of some of the duty times my friends do. But just to bring two things out of this thread; what do ops do for safety? After working x amount of night shifts and overtime with my modest pay talks going sour I managed to plan a flight with the wrong aircraft. (Allthough there were other external factors that led to me doing this.) The crew didnt pick up the mistake, nor did the fueling guys, nor the engineers. Two hours into the flight a workmate did. Just luck that this flight was not a fuel critical sector and the aircraft I was working with had a higher burn than the one they were flying. What if it was the flight that had an engine shut down at etp because of a tired engineer missing something, the day that the met guys hadnt got the winds just right, the day that the guy in the notam office missed the notice that divert airport 'a' was closed. Its a team effort.
Pilots hate managers and vice versea, well everyone has problems with managment, but at the end of the day. If the were not running the company it wouldnt exist and we would be out of a job.
In saying all that, I made a choice some years ago not to fly for money. I get to go home every night, I dont live out of a suitcase. ****** that for a life, you guys deserve 99% of what your paid.
Pilots hate managers and vice versea, well everyone has problems with managment, but at the end of the day. If the were not running the company it wouldnt exist and we would be out of a job.
In saying all that, I made a choice some years ago not to fly for money. I get to go home every night, I dont live out of a suitcase. ****** that for a life, you guys deserve 99% of what your paid.
I look forward to reading the article when it is posted here, but an article put together in only one week can only begin to scratch at the surface of the morale and fatigue problems faced today.
September 11 has changed our working environment dramatically. Faceless beaurocrats produce one edict after another which greatly affect our everyday working lives. As has been already asked on this thread, are we really prime suspects to hijack our own aircraft? If so the new secure cockpit doors must be a great assistance in our endeavours.
Why have our family been banned from the flight deck? Again complete strangers who happen to have a reasonable likeness of an ID and claim to be on duty or representing an authority are permitted. For absolutely zero security benefit we have had the ability to take family members with us severely depleted.
Mismanagement leads to low morale, and our industry seems to attract the worst examples of mismanagement. I sometimes wonder what a fortune there is to be made by an airline with good management, where the staff are not treated as an unfortunate necessity. Maybe an example exists in USA.
Over recent years and in certain airlines the pilot's role has been downgraded at the expense of other members of crew. No account seems to be taken of the long and arduous training undertaken to achieve a licence. This has affected pilot morale, and is due to internal politics between departments at some airlines.
A normal social and family life is difficult enough with inevitable working of unusual hours, but now there is the added worry that even a glass of wine on the day before a flight could in some circumstances be career threatening.
Finally there seems to be a misconception that in order to offer cheap fares pilots must be worked to legal maxima (which themselves need addressing) and paid as little as possible. I think personally that most passengers would be happy to pay an extra 50p to have well rested pilots at the controls, and for 50p a passenger pilots hours could probably be halved.
Plenty of scope for future articles, I think!
September 11 has changed our working environment dramatically. Faceless beaurocrats produce one edict after another which greatly affect our everyday working lives. As has been already asked on this thread, are we really prime suspects to hijack our own aircraft? If so the new secure cockpit doors must be a great assistance in our endeavours.
Why have our family been banned from the flight deck? Again complete strangers who happen to have a reasonable likeness of an ID and claim to be on duty or representing an authority are permitted. For absolutely zero security benefit we have had the ability to take family members with us severely depleted.
Mismanagement leads to low morale, and our industry seems to attract the worst examples of mismanagement. I sometimes wonder what a fortune there is to be made by an airline with good management, where the staff are not treated as an unfortunate necessity. Maybe an example exists in USA.
Over recent years and in certain airlines the pilot's role has been downgraded at the expense of other members of crew. No account seems to be taken of the long and arduous training undertaken to achieve a licence. This has affected pilot morale, and is due to internal politics between departments at some airlines.
A normal social and family life is difficult enough with inevitable working of unusual hours, but now there is the added worry that even a glass of wine on the day before a flight could in some circumstances be career threatening.
Finally there seems to be a misconception that in order to offer cheap fares pilots must be worked to legal maxima (which themselves need addressing) and paid as little as possible. I think personally that most passengers would be happy to pay an extra 50p to have well rested pilots at the controls, and for 50p a passenger pilots hours could probably be halved.
Plenty of scope for future articles, I think!
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It would seem that this thread, and the one "pilots against hours increase" have mated together. The posts are now becoming idebtical in opinion. Add the easyjet strike thread to them and there there is some troylism.
No doubt that this is a red hot topic, but what can be done about it? All this voting with your feet is not an option. They're all the same. A bit of continental style pilot power to oust the dim-wits who've created this, perhaps? At least then the correct feet will be walking!
IMHO it is the pilots and engineers who have the most longterm career attitude towards an airline, and thus the most stalwart attitude to its survival. Senior management do not seem to have that same longterm devotion. Shortterm profits and bonuses drive their passion. Somehow, though, pilots are branded as wanting to drive the airlines into fiancial ruin and thus lose their jobs. I can't quite fathom this. Daft idea to me.
If you read the application forms for airline recruitment, the qualifications and characteristcs required to join air-whoever, they demand 5* everything. Managament & team leadership skills, apptitude, flexibility, dynamisim, a host of scholarly achievemnts. Assuming they select people who meet all this, how is it they think we are all suicidal towards our careers. I can't think of any european airline that has gone bust because of the attitudes & actions of the crews, but I can think of many who have been saved from the brink by the attitude & actions of the crews. Pilot costs pale into insignificance compared to the c@*k -ups made my managment.
Anyway; do you think, bewteen all 3 threads, we've said it all an reached conscensus? Perhaps someone might like to start a post about solutions?????
No doubt that this is a red hot topic, but what can be done about it? All this voting with your feet is not an option. They're all the same. A bit of continental style pilot power to oust the dim-wits who've created this, perhaps? At least then the correct feet will be walking!
IMHO it is the pilots and engineers who have the most longterm career attitude towards an airline, and thus the most stalwart attitude to its survival. Senior management do not seem to have that same longterm devotion. Shortterm profits and bonuses drive their passion. Somehow, though, pilots are branded as wanting to drive the airlines into fiancial ruin and thus lose their jobs. I can't quite fathom this. Daft idea to me.
If you read the application forms for airline recruitment, the qualifications and characteristcs required to join air-whoever, they demand 5* everything. Managament & team leadership skills, apptitude, flexibility, dynamisim, a host of scholarly achievemnts. Assuming they select people who meet all this, how is it they think we are all suicidal towards our careers. I can't think of any european airline that has gone bust because of the attitudes & actions of the crews, but I can think of many who have been saved from the brink by the attitude & actions of the crews. Pilot costs pale into insignificance compared to the c@*k -ups made my managment.
Anyway; do you think, bewteen all 3 threads, we've said it all an reached conscensus? Perhaps someone might like to start a post about solutions?????
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Orangewing et all
Sorry to backtrack a few days, only picked up on the thread.
Anyone but anyone involved in the operation of an aircraft, from grooming, through bag chucking, payroll, etc to the MD of an Airline can influence the safe operation of said aircraft.
Take Capt Blood-pressure, and F/O Newtoline. What happens after 60 Hrs on shift over 4-5 nights we snap. 0600 Capt B-P not at his best, said groundie is best compared to a Polar Bear straight out of hibernation. Capt B-P now adopts same. Poor old F/O. Oh and the leading edge slats Sir?
No let us not let it happen again, CRM aside from morale, but moral a contributing factor.
Do not belittle ANY input into flight safety. Take-offs to equal landings is the only mandatory target the industry needs to achieve.
Just remember (and it applies to all trades), Payroll are the most important part of an airline on payday, staff travel as hols need booking, and noone goes nowhere without a clean log
Anyone but anyone involved in the operation of an aircraft, from grooming, through bag chucking, payroll, etc to the MD of an Airline can influence the safe operation of said aircraft.
Take Capt Blood-pressure, and F/O Newtoline. What happens after 60 Hrs on shift over 4-5 nights we snap. 0600 Capt B-P not at his best, said groundie is best compared to a Polar Bear straight out of hibernation. Capt B-P now adopts same. Poor old F/O. Oh and the leading edge slats Sir?
No let us not let it happen again, CRM aside from morale, but moral a contributing factor.
Do not belittle ANY input into flight safety. Take-offs to equal landings is the only mandatory target the industry needs to achieve.
Just remember (and it applies to all trades), Payroll are the most important part of an airline on payday, staff travel as hols need booking, and noone goes nowhere without a clean log
My twopenny's worth:
I'd feel happier flying an aircraft being rested and having consumed one beer than flying when severely fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after operating on a 10 hour two crew return flight from Florida having taken off at midnight body time with irregular and disturbed rest. Please bear in mind I had just recently landed the aircraft!
Also, I heard a fellow pilot once comment "If our pilots made as many errors our management makes, there would be aircraft wrecks all over Southern England".
I'd feel happier flying an aircraft being rested and having consumed one beer than flying when severely fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after operating on a 10 hour two crew return flight from Florida having taken off at midnight body time with irregular and disturbed rest. Please bear in mind I had just recently landed the aircraft!
Also, I heard a fellow pilot once comment "If our pilots made as many errors our management makes, there would be aircraft wrecks all over Southern England".
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Overworked pilots snooze at controls - Sunday Times
Source: The Sunday Times
Typical management deception "Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall." They forget to mention that that is flight hours and not duty hours or the fact that it is spread unevenly through multiple circadian cycles. Trust management as far as you can throw them. 
February 09, 2003
Overworked pilots snooze at controls
Mark Macaskill
SOME pilots for Britain’s leading budget airlines claim they often doze off at the controls during long working days.Flight deck staff say that long working hours and few breaks mean they are increasingly putting the safety of passengers at risk.
Under Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) rules, pilots are permitted to fly up to 100 hours per month. However, some claim they are reaching their monthly limit within a fortnight, which means they struggle to keep awake and miss radio calls from air traffic control.
More than 20 pilots from seven airlines were interviewed by The Sunday Times, five of whom admitted to falling asleep briefly at the controls. Most expressed deep concern over the number of hours they work, the effects on their alertness and the increasing risk to passenger safety.
The European commission is considering introducing new flying limits that could see British pilots flying up to 14 hours a day, which some experts believe will dramatically increase pilot fatigue.
One pilot with ScotAirways, which flies between Edinburgh and London City four times a day, described the hours as “frightening”.
The pilot, who did not wish to be named, said he often reaches his maximum monthly flying hours in fewer than two weeks.
“Pilots do fall asleep and quite often you are in the cockpit while struggling to keep your eyes open,” he said.
“Concern is rife about the number of hours we work and in my opinion the regulations are exploited to the absolute maximum.”
Another pilot with easyJet, who also wished to remain anonymous, said: “The authorities know what’s going on, but nothing will change until there is a nasty incident and the cause is found to be fatigue. The rostering system is decided daily and causes absolute chaos.”
Safety risks posed by tired pilots have also been voiced by air traffic controllers. According to one pilot, concerns were raised by London controllers in spring 2001 after pilots with one leading airline were given “complicated” landing instructions late at night, which had to be “repeated several times” to ensure they were carried out properly.
Bob Osborne, 62, a retired commercial pilot, refuses to travel on night charters after his experiences working for a leading airline for 10 years.
“I noticed very strange behaviour patterns among staff after long shifts, as fatigue had a similar effect to alcohol. It was hard to hold a conversation.
“While flying, it was quite common for pilots to grab a few minutes’ sleep because they were so tired. My worry is that pilots are being pushed to the extreme of fatigue where the simple things, like engaging automatics on approach, can catch you out.”
A senior pilot with Ryanair, who was interviewed by The Sunday Times last week but wished to remain anonymous for fear of losing his job, added: “Officially, nobody sleeps on the flight deck, but unofficially it does happen. In many cases, a quick nap, provided your co-pilot is on the ball, can be beneficial.”
Last year research funded by the CAA found that 10 out of 12 pilots who flew between London and Miami showed signs of dozing off on the flight deck. A special wristwatch that detects when pilots fall asleep and emits a high-pitched alarm to wake them up is being tested. Further trials are planned later this year on domestic and European routes.
Mike Nash, director of the Independent Pilots’ Association, which represents about 1,000 pilots from Britain’s leading airlines, added: “Pilot fatigue is a big concern in the industry now. There’s no doubt that some pilots are struggling to keep awake while flying. Some airlines are pushing to get the maximum number of hours out of their staff.”
A spokesman for Ryanair denied that pilots were being overworked. “Our crews operate to the highest European safety standards. We have a very low turnover of pilots and a large number of new applicants,” he said.
“If pilots have concerns they should raise them with the company. Safety is a priority and if it’s an issue among staff it has to be taken seriously.”
Jerry Froggett, a spokesman for ScotAirways, said: “I would not like to comment on one individual’s views. We know the majority of staff are happy working for the company and one individual’s view does not represent the whole.”
A spokesman for easyJet said: “We know about the problems of pilots and pilot rostering, and that is being addressed by management. We take safety issues very seriously. Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall.”
Overworked pilots snooze at controls
Mark Macaskill
SOME pilots for Britain’s leading budget airlines claim they often doze off at the controls during long working days.Flight deck staff say that long working hours and few breaks mean they are increasingly putting the safety of passengers at risk.
Under Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) rules, pilots are permitted to fly up to 100 hours per month. However, some claim they are reaching their monthly limit within a fortnight, which means they struggle to keep awake and miss radio calls from air traffic control.
More than 20 pilots from seven airlines were interviewed by The Sunday Times, five of whom admitted to falling asleep briefly at the controls. Most expressed deep concern over the number of hours they work, the effects on their alertness and the increasing risk to passenger safety.
The European commission is considering introducing new flying limits that could see British pilots flying up to 14 hours a day, which some experts believe will dramatically increase pilot fatigue.
One pilot with ScotAirways, which flies between Edinburgh and London City four times a day, described the hours as “frightening”.
The pilot, who did not wish to be named, said he often reaches his maximum monthly flying hours in fewer than two weeks.
“Pilots do fall asleep and quite often you are in the cockpit while struggling to keep your eyes open,” he said.
“Concern is rife about the number of hours we work and in my opinion the regulations are exploited to the absolute maximum.”
Another pilot with easyJet, who also wished to remain anonymous, said: “The authorities know what’s going on, but nothing will change until there is a nasty incident and the cause is found to be fatigue. The rostering system is decided daily and causes absolute chaos.”
Safety risks posed by tired pilots have also been voiced by air traffic controllers. According to one pilot, concerns were raised by London controllers in spring 2001 after pilots with one leading airline were given “complicated” landing instructions late at night, which had to be “repeated several times” to ensure they were carried out properly.
Bob Osborne, 62, a retired commercial pilot, refuses to travel on night charters after his experiences working for a leading airline for 10 years.
“I noticed very strange behaviour patterns among staff after long shifts, as fatigue had a similar effect to alcohol. It was hard to hold a conversation.
“While flying, it was quite common for pilots to grab a few minutes’ sleep because they were so tired. My worry is that pilots are being pushed to the extreme of fatigue where the simple things, like engaging automatics on approach, can catch you out.”
A senior pilot with Ryanair, who was interviewed by The Sunday Times last week but wished to remain anonymous for fear of losing his job, added: “Officially, nobody sleeps on the flight deck, but unofficially it does happen. In many cases, a quick nap, provided your co-pilot is on the ball, can be beneficial.”
Last year research funded by the CAA found that 10 out of 12 pilots who flew between London and Miami showed signs of dozing off on the flight deck. A special wristwatch that detects when pilots fall asleep and emits a high-pitched alarm to wake them up is being tested. Further trials are planned later this year on domestic and European routes.
Mike Nash, director of the Independent Pilots’ Association, which represents about 1,000 pilots from Britain’s leading airlines, added: “Pilot fatigue is a big concern in the industry now. There’s no doubt that some pilots are struggling to keep awake while flying. Some airlines are pushing to get the maximum number of hours out of their staff.”
A spokesman for Ryanair denied that pilots were being overworked. “Our crews operate to the highest European safety standards. We have a very low turnover of pilots and a large number of new applicants,” he said.
“If pilots have concerns they should raise them with the company. Safety is a priority and if it’s an issue among staff it has to be taken seriously.”
Jerry Froggett, a spokesman for ScotAirways, said: “I would not like to comment on one individual’s views. We know the majority of staff are happy working for the company and one individual’s view does not represent the whole.”
A spokesman for easyJet said: “We know about the problems of pilots and pilot rostering, and that is being addressed by management. We take safety issues very seriously. Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall.”
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I wonder just how MANY circadian cycles there actually are between Edinburgh~London City.
Pilots have ALWAYS bit@hed about their duty times, no matter HOW many hours they fly. Going home/hotel and actually sleeping instead of proping up the bar....is recommended.
Pilots have ALWAYS bit@hed about their duty times, no matter HOW many hours they fly. Going home/hotel and actually sleeping instead of proping up the bar....is recommended.
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Circadian rhythms just means daily rhythms, which can be affected by many factors apart from the obvious time zone change.American police forces discovered that when they rostered plods for 4 months of earlies followed by 4 months of days, then 4 months of nights, more crimes were solved, less sick days were taken and the accident rate decreased significantly. Pilots rosters are so random that you never get a chance to adjust to a particular daily cycle, apart from the night freight boys.
Unfortunately the police model would be unworkable in an airline environment, not to mention unacceptable by most pilots.
Unfortunately the police model would be unworkable in an airline environment, not to mention unacceptable by most pilots.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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OZZY
Interesting about the police...seems it works for them.
Worked for a carrier in south asia a few years ago. Always thought they had a completely fair and unbiased roster pattern.
They asked for each tech crew to state which flight(s) they preferred, and did their very best to assign same.
For example, many liked to fly to LHR (2-3 day layover) or SYD (7 days).
OTOH, some (yours truly) preferred NRT and FRA.
You could request as many of these as you liked...and if no one else wanted 'em...they were yours.
Of course, no one liked the KWI and DHA turnarounds, so these were apportioned fairly to all.
Worked for them anyway
IF airlines would ASK crew for their opinions...they might just be surprised.
Interesting about the police...seems it works for them.
Worked for a carrier in south asia a few years ago. Always thought they had a completely fair and unbiased roster pattern.
They asked for each tech crew to state which flight(s) they preferred, and did their very best to assign same.
For example, many liked to fly to LHR (2-3 day layover) or SYD (7 days).
OTOH, some (yours truly) preferred NRT and FRA.
You could request as many of these as you liked...and if no one else wanted 'em...they were yours.
Of course, no one liked the KWI and DHA turnarounds, so these were apportioned fairly to all.
Worked for them anyway
IF airlines would ASK crew for their opinions...they might just be surprised.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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So, instead of looking into work patterns, duty hours, number of pilots and rest requirements, they are developing a wristwatch which will detect when pilots fall asleep? And then wake them up?
Why not make one that can detect why pilots fall asleep? And then sack the management?
Why not make one that can detect why pilots fall asleep? And then sack the management?
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Scando,
Why sack management?
IF pilots cannot get adequate rest....maybe, just maybe it is their own fault. Poor planning perhaps?
The ONLY time I was not able to sleep in a hotel (anytime of the day) was in the Hilton in SFO many years ago. Opera music was coming from the next room so called same and asked the broad if she was practicing for the Metropolitan Opera.
Turned out she was...for the 8pm performance
Voice like a schrew.....
Why sack management?
IF pilots cannot get adequate rest....maybe, just maybe it is their own fault. Poor planning perhaps?
The ONLY time I was not able to sleep in a hotel (anytime of the day) was in the Hilton in SFO many years ago. Opera music was coming from the next room so called same and asked the broad if she was practicing for the Metropolitan Opera.
Turned out she was...for the 8pm performance
Voice like a schrew.....