pilots against hours increase
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: WA
Flight Time - Duty Time Regulations
Hi all!
I have been hearing a few things in reference to the new European Community ruling on Flight and Duty Time.
I am very interested in finding out what is the latest and
where we stand. Is anyone here up to speed?
Also the Italian pilots' unions have proposed a strike and
are selling it as Europe wide. Is it true? Are all other
European pilots going on strike on the 21st of January?
That's what the unions here are telling us, but I personally
do not believe strikes to be the best way to inform the
public of the risks connected with an increase in operational
fatigue.
What do you think??? Thanks for your input.
The Meerkat
I have been hearing a few things in reference to the new European Community ruling on Flight and Duty Time.
I am very interested in finding out what is the latest and
where we stand. Is anyone here up to speed?
Also the Italian pilots' unions have proposed a strike and
are selling it as Europe wide. Is it true? Are all other
European pilots going on strike on the 21st of January?
That's what the unions here are telling us, but I personally
do not believe strikes to be the best way to inform the
public of the risks connected with an increase in operational
fatigue.
What do you think??? Thanks for your input.
The Meerkat
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
This has to be the biggest single issue facing European pilots at the moment. If you don't know about it, find out!
Your union would be a good place to start!
Haven't heard of any strikes in this neck of the woods yet, but it is definitely going to be a BIG deal soon!
Your union would be a good place to start!
Haven't heard of any strikes in this neck of the woods yet, but it is definitely going to be a BIG deal soon!
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I currently fly under the Dutch Flight and Duty regulations. While staying well inside the requirements it is not unusual for both myself and my FO to have difficulty staying awake at 0500.
Flight and duty regs plainly have nothing to do with having well rested crews - as they totally fail to achieve this.
I have always assumed that they are just another typical piece of aviation politics whereby legislation is enacted to appear to do something while similtaneously achieving little or nothing.
Airlines constant lobbying against more effective regulations simply confirms their true position on safety verses economics.
Flight and duty regs plainly have nothing to do with having well rested crews - as they totally fail to achieve this.
I have always assumed that they are just another typical piece of aviation politics whereby legislation is enacted to appear to do something while similtaneously achieving little or nothing.
Airlines constant lobbying against more effective regulations simply confirms their true position on safety verses economics.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
The CAA proposals for changes to CAP 371 are at UK CAA FODCOM
The proposed changes close a few of the loopholes exploited in the past by less scrupulous crewing deptments!
As interesting as the actual changes, are some of the responses from our employers - showing their true colours perhaps?
(The link above is a 44 page pdf so might take a little while to download if you aint got broadband, sorry but it's not my website!)
The proposed changes close a few of the loopholes exploited in the past by less scrupulous crewing deptments!
As interesting as the actual changes, are some of the responses from our employers - showing their true colours perhaps?
(The link above is a 44 page pdf so might take a little while to download if you aint got broadband, sorry but it's not my website!)
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Beds
Sleeping. thanks for the link to the CAA FODCOM. Having taken part in one of these studies some years ago I am delighted that the scientific findings are being used to implement better safety regulation. This is just the way it should happen. Detect, a problem, objectively investigate, report and then implement an appropriate change after consultation and discussion.
I fully expected the Operator I then worked for to pull every little trick to try and thwart the changes. Trying to discredit the work of Qinetiq really is laughable. The only way to argue against science is with better science. My view is that the changes will make for safer operation. It really isn't acceptable to have crews operating in an overtired or fatigued state; especially in the high density airspace we fly in.
Also, well done to those pilots who stuck their heads above the parapet to voice opinion. If only more would do likewise.
Which brings me to Ryanair. The changes don't apply to them. BALPA have published a nice piece on the issue of flying over 100 hours per month. Yet, we don't seem to get adverse comment from Ryanair pilots. The fixed roster is obviously a good idea. But, is there never a problem with tiredness and fatigue with pilots on five early starts and the pressure of flying over 100 hours a month?
Perhaps the IAA would also like to use the services of the Qinetiq team?
I fully expected the Operator I then worked for to pull every little trick to try and thwart the changes. Trying to discredit the work of Qinetiq really is laughable. The only way to argue against science is with better science. My view is that the changes will make for safer operation. It really isn't acceptable to have crews operating in an overtired or fatigued state; especially in the high density airspace we fly in.
Also, well done to those pilots who stuck their heads above the parapet to voice opinion. If only more would do likewise.
Which brings me to Ryanair. The changes don't apply to them. BALPA have published a nice piece on the issue of flying over 100 hours per month. Yet, we don't seem to get adverse comment from Ryanair pilots. The fixed roster is obviously a good idea. But, is there never a problem with tiredness and fatigue with pilots on five early starts and the pressure of flying over 100 hours a month?
Perhaps the IAA would also like to use the services of the Qinetiq team?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
From: the past
Meerkat,
The fact is that nothing has been done on the issue for decades in Italy.Only now when Alitalia pilots see their flying done by Volare (code-sharing) the unions are waking up.Which pilot union could allow the pilots to legally work 17 hour duty periods without any regard to carcadian rhythm.Or three pilots could go on for 24 hours without dedicated rest space on plane.Volare also flies to UK.Can check: www.anva.net
The EU Commission has washed its hands
of the issue after sleeping on it for years and now we have the Simpson affair.
Pilots of all nations unite!
But we are our own worst enemies.
The fact is that nothing has been done on the issue for decades in Italy.Only now when Alitalia pilots see their flying done by Volare (code-sharing) the unions are waking up.Which pilot union could allow the pilots to legally work 17 hour duty periods without any regard to carcadian rhythm.Or three pilots could go on for 24 hours without dedicated rest space on plane.Volare also flies to UK.Can check: www.anva.net
The EU Commission has washed its hands
of the issue after sleeping on it for years and now we have the Simpson affair.
Pilots of all nations unite!
But we are our own worst enemies.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: UK
Geeny, our own colleagues here in Italy could never unite ( AEL-Volare)so what hope of world unity on this subject.
Lets face it. The despotic nature of the airline captain will always work against us. I apologise for such negativity but history bears witness!
Whilst gold continues to fascinate mankind, safety issues will always take second place to commerce!
A happy new year my friend.
Lets face it. The despotic nature of the airline captain will always work against us. I apologise for such negativity but history bears witness!
Whilst gold continues to fascinate mankind, safety issues will always take second place to commerce!
A happy new year my friend.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
From: the past
Well,if Joe (or Giovanni) the Public doesn't care the bean counters should.Also the pilots in the countries with FTL less "liberal" (more fatigue safer) should,they are the next in line unless something is done to stop the rule by the corrupt EU bureaucrats (and others,like ENAC ones).Why it took the Italian pilot unions court action to make ENAC start the latest talks?
We can only hope ECA does something soon and force the ignorant EU money (we pay) waisters to move aside.Can check their web site: www.eca-cockpit.com
We can only hope ECA does something soon and force the ignorant EU money (we pay) waisters to move aside.Can check their web site: www.eca-cockpit.com
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: uk
pilots against hours increase
from BBC teletext:
a campain to prevent an increase in the flying hours of airline pilots is being launched across Europe on Tuesday.
UK pilots' union BALPA believes the European Parliament's Proposal is dangerous and unsafe.
In Italy, pilots are poised to strike on Tuesday in protest, and in Britain union members will be lobbying MP's.
The Civil Aviation Authority said it had concerns but backed the standardising pilots' flying hours across Europe.
anyone care to comment...... anyone know what is proposed?
a campain to prevent an increase in the flying hours of airline pilots is being launched across Europe on Tuesday.
UK pilots' union BALPA believes the European Parliament's Proposal is dangerous and unsafe.
In Italy, pilots are poised to strike on Tuesday in protest, and in Britain union members will be lobbying MP's.
The Civil Aviation Authority said it had concerns but backed the standardising pilots' flying hours across Europe.
anyone care to comment...... anyone know what is proposed?
Alba Gu Brath
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 745
Likes: 3
From: Merseyside
Duty hours change to 60 hour per 7 consecutive days and 190 hours per 28 consecutive days.
No 28 day limit for block hours, annual = 900 hrs per calendar year.
Max FDP per day = 13 hours. This is reduced for flights encroaching the WOCL (Window of Circadian Low) 0200-0600 local. If you report for a flight during the WOCL then the FDP is reduced by 100% of its' encroachment. If you end during or after (having started before) the WOCL then FDP is reduced by 50% of its' encroachment.
Only comment re days off is min 36 hours off per week, to include 2 local nights. No more than 168 hours between 2 of these off periods.
All make sense? Good. Answers on a postcard to Brian Simpson MEP, rapporteur of the EU FDP Proposal.
No 28 day limit for block hours, annual = 900 hrs per calendar year.
Max FDP per day = 13 hours. This is reduced for flights encroaching the WOCL (Window of Circadian Low) 0200-0600 local. If you report for a flight during the WOCL then the FDP is reduced by 100% of its' encroachment. If you end during or after (having started before) the WOCL then FDP is reduced by 50% of its' encroachment.
Only comment re days off is min 36 hours off per week, to include 2 local nights. No more than 168 hours between 2 of these off periods.
All make sense? Good. Answers on a postcard to Brian Simpson MEP, rapporteur of the EU FDP Proposal.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From: Wiltshire England
Working hours
If i work in an office the working time directive protects me such that i do not have to work more than 40 hours per week. In the transport industry i can be treated like a victorian chimney boy and be made to work 60 hours per week by my masters.
This is a national disgrace that a group of workers can be treated
in this way.
I notice that our MPs in Westminster have got rid of the late night sittings and other unsocial hours and given themselves a massive pay rise. They realise that unsocial hours are bad for their health and private life. It is a shame that they can't make the link with other workers who are put in an unhealthy position because they are unfairly forced to work long unsocial hours for 7 days in a row.
This is a national disgrace that a group of workers can be treated
in this way.
I notice that our MPs in Westminster have got rid of the late night sittings and other unsocial hours and given themselves a massive pay rise. They realise that unsocial hours are bad for their health and private life. It is a shame that they can't make the link with other workers who are put in an unhealthy position because they are unfairly forced to work long unsocial hours for 7 days in a row.
Alba Gu Brath
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 745
Likes: 3
From: Merseyside
http://www2.europarl.eu.int/omk/sipa...NAV=S&LSTDOC=Y
A little light bedtime reading
edited to try and fix link ... now tested - seems to works fine ... McD
A little light bedtime reading
edited to try and fix link ... now tested - seems to works fine ... McD
Last edited by McD; 21st January 2003 at 19:51.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
From: South East England
Sky 9 Balpa are extremely active in this area Mervyn Granshaw devotes vast amounts of his time and effort to European Flight time issues.As you clearly have an interest may I suggest you contact the Balpa technical Secretary at the LGW office and volounteer your services on the relevant technical study group.Then you can really be up to speed on the complexity and mind numbing politics of this issue.Balpa is short of member volounteers in virtually all the technical areas.Rewarding and interesting work but also frustrating at times.Become one of the movers and shakers!!