pilots against hours increase
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Probably treated the same as fatigue… put it down to sickness and look the other way.
As an aside, in the charter company I work for, an alarming number of my colleagues have succumbed to various forms of cancer. Sadly in the majority of cases it’s proven terminal. It’s starting to worry many of us so much; we now choose not to cruise above FL350
PS RAT 5 absolutely correct, consider it started.
As an aside, in the charter company I work for, an alarming number of my colleagues have succumbed to various forms of cancer. Sadly in the majority of cases it’s proven terminal. It’s starting to worry many of us so much; we now choose not to cruise above FL350
PS RAT 5 absolutely correct, consider it started.
Last edited by max_cont; 27th Jan 2003 at 11:35.
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M.C.
There is a great risk this will diversify into a new topic; but, I had an American on the jump seat who went ashen we we levelled at 390. He spoke about above FL290. I know there was an in depth study conducted by the unions of Germany & Italy. On a LH B747 they carried an expert from the agency that monitors radiation in factories etc. It said that his meter went off the scale at cruise FL. This was in mid 90's. It also said that LH was ordering all new a/c to have lined cockpits, but it would be too heavy for the cabin. In otherwords they recognised a risk. Nothing entered the public domain. Under the carpet, I feel. Can't do anything about it, so don't tell anyone.
Since then I've read very little, except that which was issued by a later employeer saying there was no risk. HM?
Perhaps if we want to discuss this, a 'new topic' would be the correct place.
There is a great risk this will diversify into a new topic; but, I had an American on the jump seat who went ashen we we levelled at 390. He spoke about above FL290. I know there was an in depth study conducted by the unions of Germany & Italy. On a LH B747 they carried an expert from the agency that monitors radiation in factories etc. It said that his meter went off the scale at cruise FL. This was in mid 90's. It also said that LH was ordering all new a/c to have lined cockpits, but it would be too heavy for the cabin. In otherwords they recognised a risk. Nothing entered the public domain. Under the carpet, I feel. Can't do anything about it, so don't tell anyone.
Since then I've read very little, except that which was issued by a later employeer saying there was no risk. HM?
Perhaps if we want to discuss this, a 'new topic' would be the correct place.
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When you look at it in a basic manner airplanes now are so reliable that hardly anything goes wrong, unless you fly in a 3 rd
world country perhaps. That said most airlines count on their flight crew to perform well "if everything keeps working". So in order to keep the economics of the business first we have to take a calculated risk, while of course telling the public that safety is first. So as long as everything goes right, fatique is just a calculated risk that we have to accept to keep the beancounters and the share holders HAPPY. IF the **** hits the fan and things do go wrong we have PILOT ERROR to put the blame on the individuals . I sometimes have that nasty feeling in a take off when I'm really naggered, V1,.....rotate......etc, etc, thank god!!!
world country perhaps. That said most airlines count on their flight crew to perform well "if everything keeps working". So in order to keep the economics of the business first we have to take a calculated risk, while of course telling the public that safety is first. So as long as everything goes right, fatique is just a calculated risk that we have to accept to keep the beancounters and the share holders HAPPY. IF the **** hits the fan and things do go wrong we have PILOT ERROR to put the blame on the individuals . I sometimes have that nasty feeling in a take off when I'm really naggered, V1,.....rotate......etc, etc, thank god!!!
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Maximum
well, what would you like he/she to do? Find public transport at all times of the day or night? Lets face it, impossible. Stay in the car and sleep? Then drive home in time to turn round and come back to the airport? Go sick every time?
No not at all. Local digs would be a good idea though. If you want to live miles away, as do Ops, Crewing, Engineers etc get digs. For your own sake, it is cheaper. I have known chaps in the past commute from Cornwall to Birmingham with no problems. Drive up on day one, drive home on last day. I have also seen guys who live 2-3 Hrs away commute daily. Never an issue until their plans screwed up. Guess what, the fatigue card played.
People do not go sick "fatigued" because the usual reply from crewing is "are you refusing to fly?" Then "well, its legal." Next comes the phone call from a pilot manager asking you why you're fatigued when other pilots have flown exactly the same duty and they haven't reported "fatigued". A load of unneccessary hassle and bull**** I think you'd agree, especially when the reason you're phoning in "fatigued" is because your bloody knackered!! Add to this the fact that this is probably not a one off event, but a rostering pattern that repeats itself again and again, and you'll see why pilots just "go sick" instead of "fatigued".
As I have posted years ago on this subject, If (as the line manager of Crew Control) any of my chaps took that angle?
Every case of (claimed) fatigue has been notified PRE rest period.
You seem to have missed the word PRE.
The only cases of Fatigue Sickness have been phoned in, from the Crewroom, on completing a duty, PRIOR TO TAKING MIN REST.
I take it it is OK for you to take a Bird worked and signed by a grubbie 24 Hrs on shift? On his head be it perhaps?
On all occasions, I have seen fatigue claimed for personal reasons, it can normally be married up to refused requests, standby gambles etc.
If you cry wolf, eventual resut, no ****** will believe you!
Fly safe, it saves me work...................
Bored
No not at all. Local digs would be a good idea though. If you want to live miles away, as do Ops, Crewing, Engineers etc get digs. For your own sake, it is cheaper. I have known chaps in the past commute from Cornwall to Birmingham with no problems. Drive up on day one, drive home on last day. I have also seen guys who live 2-3 Hrs away commute daily. Never an issue until their plans screwed up. Guess what, the fatigue card played.
People do not go sick "fatigued" because the usual reply from crewing is "are you refusing to fly?" Then "well, its legal." Next comes the phone call from a pilot manager asking you why you're fatigued when other pilots have flown exactly the same duty and they haven't reported "fatigued". A load of unneccessary hassle and bull**** I think you'd agree, especially when the reason you're phoning in "fatigued" is because your bloody knackered!! Add to this the fact that this is probably not a one off event, but a rostering pattern that repeats itself again and again, and you'll see why pilots just "go sick" instead of "fatigued".
As I have posted years ago on this subject, If (as the line manager of Crew Control) any of my chaps took that angle?
Every case of (claimed) fatigue has been notified PRE rest period.
You seem to have missed the word PRE.
The only cases of Fatigue Sickness have been phoned in, from the Crewroom, on completing a duty, PRIOR TO TAKING MIN REST.
I take it it is OK for you to take a Bird worked and signed by a grubbie 24 Hrs on shift? On his head be it perhaps?
On all occasions, I have seen fatigue claimed for personal reasons, it can normally be married up to refused requests, standby gambles etc.
If you cry wolf, eventual resut, no ****** will believe you!
Fly safe, it saves me work...................
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G.P. 76
I fear there is much truth in your assessment. This is brought about by the CAA's wearing 2 hats. Safety and compliance costs money, as does training to above the minimum requirements. 95% or airlines handle this. It is the ones that can't, or won't, raise their standards above the legal minimum. They plead poverty and the same CAA has to adjudicate for the commercial viability. Conflict of interest.
As we've seen, the rise in CFIT is not being stemmed. A tired crew can prang a perfectly serviceable a/c. OUCH! BUT an alert well trained crew with initiative can bring home a semi-crippled a/c. Horray!
When there is a train or coach crash, and the number of victims equals a J31 pax load, all hell breaks lose. Money is no object and heaven and earth are moved to try and avoid it happening again. Quite right. Compare what happens after a CFIT and pilot error is the named cause. Investigation stops and the root causes are kept at a very superficial level, or so it seems publically.
A recommendation maybe issued regarding extra training and improving the awareness of crews pertinent to the scenario. This, in theory, might help, but seems rarely to be mandatory. Thus the number of pilots who will learn from the prang could be minimal.
But risk management has been at work!
I still reckon the most dangerous place at an airport is the first roundabout outside the staff carpark between 0800 & 0900. This is when the night shift crews, on day 6, or the long-haul (14hours duty also on day 6) crews are just on their way home. If they get past the roundabout, whew!, and onto the motorway, for their 1 hour drive home, there is a potential for disaster, IMHO, greater than a couple of pints too many. Including the cabin staff of companies that do not supply crew rest, that is a lot of leathal projectiles concentrated around the major airports, even more so in the cruddy weather. It's all part of the big picture.
Sounds scare mongering? I know of a few prangs, and very near ones, from sleepy crews. In one intelligent airline there were different rules for consecutive night duties if you were at home or in a crew hotel. More restricive if at home.
Like most things in this game; the good ideas are common sense.
I fear there is much truth in your assessment. This is brought about by the CAA's wearing 2 hats. Safety and compliance costs money, as does training to above the minimum requirements. 95% or airlines handle this. It is the ones that can't, or won't, raise their standards above the legal minimum. They plead poverty and the same CAA has to adjudicate for the commercial viability. Conflict of interest.
As we've seen, the rise in CFIT is not being stemmed. A tired crew can prang a perfectly serviceable a/c. OUCH! BUT an alert well trained crew with initiative can bring home a semi-crippled a/c. Horray!
When there is a train or coach crash, and the number of victims equals a J31 pax load, all hell breaks lose. Money is no object and heaven and earth are moved to try and avoid it happening again. Quite right. Compare what happens after a CFIT and pilot error is the named cause. Investigation stops and the root causes are kept at a very superficial level, or so it seems publically.
A recommendation maybe issued regarding extra training and improving the awareness of crews pertinent to the scenario. This, in theory, might help, but seems rarely to be mandatory. Thus the number of pilots who will learn from the prang could be minimal.
But risk management has been at work!
I still reckon the most dangerous place at an airport is the first roundabout outside the staff carpark between 0800 & 0900. This is when the night shift crews, on day 6, or the long-haul (14hours duty also on day 6) crews are just on their way home. If they get past the roundabout, whew!, and onto the motorway, for their 1 hour drive home, there is a potential for disaster, IMHO, greater than a couple of pints too many. Including the cabin staff of companies that do not supply crew rest, that is a lot of leathal projectiles concentrated around the major airports, even more so in the cruddy weather. It's all part of the big picture.
Sounds scare mongering? I know of a few prangs, and very near ones, from sleepy crews. In one intelligent airline there were different rules for consecutive night duties if you were at home or in a crew hotel. More restricive if at home.
Like most things in this game; the good ideas are common sense.
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boredcounter
it would be nice of you to take the trouble to put my words in quotes so that people can differentiate between your words and mine. Quite confusing otherwise, don't ya think?
You say:
You're implying that because someone has had their rest and then gone fatigued, they must be lying. Well, from personal experience, I'd say this actually comes from most pilots' strong desire to keep the show on the road. You get home knackered, but think, ok, I'll have my rest, and then I'm sure I'll be fine to fly. However, after the rest period you find you're still in no fit state to fly, which is why you get the phone call before the duty starts, not at the end of previous.
You also seem to be implying that the whole fatigue problem stems from pilots living too far away from base. Nice if it was that simple.
Generally, I'm not sure what point your actually trying to make beyond that.......
Pilots are fatigued because companies are taking the ****, and no one seems to want to listen. End of story.
it would be nice of you to take the trouble to put my words in quotes so that people can differentiate between your words and mine. Quite confusing otherwise, don't ya think?
You say:
Every case of (claimed) fatigue has been notified PRE rest period.
You also seem to be implying that the whole fatigue problem stems from pilots living too far away from base. Nice if it was that simple.
Generally, I'm not sure what point your actually trying to make beyond that.......
Pilots are fatigued because companies are taking the ****, and no one seems to want to listen. End of story.
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Max:
Well said, and hopefully to strengthen your point:
Over a 6 day block it is not uncommon
1. to start at 0615 (to preserve the previous day off?????),
2. followed by 0530
3. lie in and start at 11.00
4/5. followed by further lie in but start at 1800 - 0600
5/6. followed by the coup d'etat, the same night at 22.00 - 10.00
So, do I tell you I'm fatigued at 0700 on day 5 or wait until 2100 on day 5??
Often I've phoned crewing in the morning and said I'm likely to be fatigued. They want a definite answer there and then. Knowing there is only 1. SBY, or more likely none at all, as Max says. you try to keep the show on the road, thus the early warning, but it is rejected.
So now you have to sleep twice in 12 hours. Good game this; except that you can't sleep before the duty: kids, neighbours, dogs, all the normal things in life. So at 2100 you phone in unfit to complete a duty until 10.00 the next morning due lack of sleep. You've had the rest time, but it was useless.
Guess the answer; "there is no-one else". So, do you step into the breach or stand your ground as the ANO says you should. What of the F/O approaching command?
Which stupid idiot rostered it in the first place??? There's the problem, and until a/c eat concrete because of this crassness IT WILL NOT CHANGE!
And if bent metal is the consequence I can guarantee the pilot will be declared fit and legal.
Well said, and hopefully to strengthen your point:
Over a 6 day block it is not uncommon
1. to start at 0615 (to preserve the previous day off?????),
2. followed by 0530
3. lie in and start at 11.00
4/5. followed by further lie in but start at 1800 - 0600
5/6. followed by the coup d'etat, the same night at 22.00 - 10.00
So, do I tell you I'm fatigued at 0700 on day 5 or wait until 2100 on day 5??
Often I've phoned crewing in the morning and said I'm likely to be fatigued. They want a definite answer there and then. Knowing there is only 1. SBY, or more likely none at all, as Max says. you try to keep the show on the road, thus the early warning, but it is rejected.
So now you have to sleep twice in 12 hours. Good game this; except that you can't sleep before the duty: kids, neighbours, dogs, all the normal things in life. So at 2100 you phone in unfit to complete a duty until 10.00 the next morning due lack of sleep. You've had the rest time, but it was useless.
Guess the answer; "there is no-one else". So, do you step into the breach or stand your ground as the ANO says you should. What of the F/O approaching command?
Which stupid idiot rostered it in the first place??? There's the problem, and until a/c eat concrete because of this crassness IT WILL NOT CHANGE!
And if bent metal is the consequence I can guarantee the pilot will be declared fit and legal.
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Maximum
Soz for the lack of quote marks. point taken, and I agree.
Now learn the difference between PRE and POST rest.
Now factor in the number of digits and years worked. Am I having a pop, no I think not, read my posts, and think again.
You all know about the little boy that cried wolf.
Fly safe with ya eyes open.
Bored
Now learn the difference between PRE and POST rest.
Now factor in the number of digits and years worked. Am I having a pop, no I think not, read my posts, and think again.
You all know about the little boy that cried wolf.
Fly safe with ya eyes open.
Bored
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Italian L'Espresso (a weekly) thinks that pilots should continue to work up to 17 hrs duty periods because "aircraft fly by themselves,anyway".And the goverment has promissed (again) the unions a reduction of the limits.This only after the countrywide strike called for by all the pilot unions but ANVA (Volare air,again).For the limits can check:www.anva.net under contract.If other EU pilots think they should not care,better ask Alitalia pilots.
The above limit is valid for two pilots with INS,three pilots can go on up to 24 hours no special rest area (or similar) required.All this without any regard to carcadian rithm nor to whether acclimatised or not.
411A,have you known this?
The above limit is valid for two pilots with INS,three pilots can go on up to 24 hours no special rest area (or similar) required.All this without any regard to carcadian rithm nor to whether acclimatised or not.
411A,have you known this?
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boredcounter
you may not think you're having "a pop" as you put it but the tone and content of your posts contradicts this.
For example
Would you quit implying I need to "learn" things? Come down off your high horse and stop being so bloody patronising!
And whats all this "Fly safe, it saves me work..." and "Fly safe with ya eyes open" crap? Again, nauseating and supremely patronising twaddle. Don't presume to tell me how to fly, thank you very much. Have you any idea how irritating it is to professional pilots when people come out with meaningless drivel like that? It me be your attempt at humour, it may be said with the best intentions, but it just gets right up my nose. What the hell do you think I do when I go flying?
You seem to have a real thing about this.Go back and read my post and you'll find it all explained.
It may appear that I'm having a personal go at you, but I'm not. It simply concerns me that time and time again this extremely serious issue which is literally destroying many pilots' and their families lives, gets sidelined into some spurious argument such as I believe yours to be.
I'll say it again. The bottom line is that pilots are being made to work to totally exhausting limits week after week, month after month, resulting in serious safety, health and social issues, but no one is listening to their repeatedly voiced concerns, and management don't give a flying ****. Just wait for the hand wringing when it all goes wrong and people lose their lives. And you know who'll get the blame? - yes of course, the pilots.
you may not think you're having "a pop" as you put it but the tone and content of your posts contradicts this.
For example
Now learn the difference between PRE and POST rest.
And whats all this "Fly safe, it saves me work..." and "Fly safe with ya eyes open" crap? Again, nauseating and supremely patronising twaddle. Don't presume to tell me how to fly, thank you very much. Have you any idea how irritating it is to professional pilots when people come out with meaningless drivel like that? It me be your attempt at humour, it may be said with the best intentions, but it just gets right up my nose. What the hell do you think I do when I go flying?
You all know about the little boy that cried wolf.
It may appear that I'm having a personal go at you, but I'm not. It simply concerns me that time and time again this extremely serious issue which is literally destroying many pilots' and their families lives, gets sidelined into some spurious argument such as I believe yours to be.
I'll say it again. The bottom line is that pilots are being made to work to totally exhausting limits week after week, month after month, resulting in serious safety, health and social issues, but no one is listening to their repeatedly voiced concerns, and management don't give a flying ****. Just wait for the hand wringing when it all goes wrong and people lose their lives. And you know who'll get the blame? - yes of course, the pilots.
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Rat 5
There'sa big difference being as you say "fatigued" and "tired".
Fatigue is a build up of being tired in my book. If you shout fatigue then your Company should ground you saspo and together seek medical advice and the background of your problems (disrupted sleep, living miles away, roster pattern etc)
The type of schedule you quote is induced by rules and regs of CAP371. After 2 earlies you cannot do nights (2) so a late is put inbetween. You can then either continue on lates or switch to nights. If a late is followed by a day off do you moan?.
If you start after a day off on lates your quickly forced into nights so nights rest early is a definate possibility....
Most Crewing folk tend to suggest that the rules of CAP371 force this type of roster. How come Ryanair Pilots do 5 earlies on the bounce 1 week, then 5 lates the next and don't moan (much). Lack of rules i would suggest. Why can't you do 4 nights on the bounce, get in a nice pattern of rest etc.
Why do you think UK Airlines are not up in arms on the new EU rules??, more hours (neither here or there), the only thing they want is lack of early /late /night rules. Take away these, and with a sensible Scheduling agreement between Crew and Employee's
you'd be a lot happier.
And lastly don't call Crewing / Rostering folk idiots, take time to go and see the roster being constructed perhaps, make an input.
I don't call you a glorified bus driver - do i???
There'sa big difference being as you say "fatigued" and "tired".
Fatigue is a build up of being tired in my book. If you shout fatigue then your Company should ground you saspo and together seek medical advice and the background of your problems (disrupted sleep, living miles away, roster pattern etc)
The type of schedule you quote is induced by rules and regs of CAP371. After 2 earlies you cannot do nights (2) so a late is put inbetween. You can then either continue on lates or switch to nights. If a late is followed by a day off do you moan?.
If you start after a day off on lates your quickly forced into nights so nights rest early is a definate possibility....
Most Crewing folk tend to suggest that the rules of CAP371 force this type of roster. How come Ryanair Pilots do 5 earlies on the bounce 1 week, then 5 lates the next and don't moan (much). Lack of rules i would suggest. Why can't you do 4 nights on the bounce, get in a nice pattern of rest etc.
Why do you think UK Airlines are not up in arms on the new EU rules??, more hours (neither here or there), the only thing they want is lack of early /late /night rules. Take away these, and with a sensible Scheduling agreement between Crew and Employee's
you'd be a lot happier.
And lastly don't call Crewing / Rostering folk idiots, take time to go and see the roster being constructed perhaps, make an input.
I don't call you a glorified bus driver - do i???
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I posted this on another thread - airlines and morale - but seems pretty relevant here. Forgive me if this is unwelcome (from a non-pilot). Perhaps some of you, assuming macaskill meets your approval, might contribute to his researches.
"
macaskill
One area you might usefully investigate is legislation - i.e. pursue ministers, etc.
The Working Hours Directive leading to Regulations (1998, which became effective in December 1999), limits hours, specifies breaks, etc, BUT EXCLUDES (among other sectors) TRANSPORT - pilots (and train, bus, lorry drivers, etc) work in Transport!
There are obvious and stated reasons why Transport was excluded but perhaps you could raise questions about why the work/life balance of factory workers, et al, is protected whilst that of people, equally deserving anyway, whose personal actions/reactions do, everyday, directly, and at times tragically, affect the lives of the general public, was omitted. Strength of the Transport Industry lobby? Complexity? 24/7 operations? This is a political question, most easily solved by legislation rather than unions locally fighting T&C's. The more public outcry, to balance the powerful industry lobby, the better- so power to your pen, macaskill.
"I still need more healthy rest in order to work at my best. My health is the main capital I have and I want to administer it intelligently."
Ernest Hemingway "
WE (not a pilot!)
"
macaskill
One area you might usefully investigate is legislation - i.e. pursue ministers, etc.
The Working Hours Directive leading to Regulations (1998, which became effective in December 1999), limits hours, specifies breaks, etc, BUT EXCLUDES (among other sectors) TRANSPORT - pilots (and train, bus, lorry drivers, etc) work in Transport!
There are obvious and stated reasons why Transport was excluded but perhaps you could raise questions about why the work/life balance of factory workers, et al, is protected whilst that of people, equally deserving anyway, whose personal actions/reactions do, everyday, directly, and at times tragically, affect the lives of the general public, was omitted. Strength of the Transport Industry lobby? Complexity? 24/7 operations? This is a political question, most easily solved by legislation rather than unions locally fighting T&C's. The more public outcry, to balance the powerful industry lobby, the better- so power to your pen, macaskill.
"I still need more healthy rest in order to work at my best. My health is the main capital I have and I want to administer it intelligently."
Ernest Hemingway "
WE (not a pilot!)
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Mr. A
Let's not get personal, but.......!
I have worked for various airlines where the attitude in rostering was this:
"You are entitled to 8 days off in 28, so that's all you're going to get. Now, how can we fill the other 20 days with duty."
This attitude leads to inefficient use of resources; i.e. rubbish rosters.
Why not roster the productivity, then when it's been worked the rest of the time is free. I know of pilots who have worked their limits in less than 28 days or 1 year, and then been rostered in the office because they can not have extra days off. Mad!!
The limits become the norms. Everything is to maximums and minimums. We work shifts to a random pattern. Why should we work 6 or 7 days censectutively just because it is the legal maximum. No other shift workers work 6 or 7 days; likely not even 5. The Ryanair roster is not good, it's just better than most. Do not use that as a yard stick. On the continent it is common to work 4 & 3, or 6 & 4, but within the 6 there will be 2 SBY's. Productivity is sufficient and there is chance of a social life.
To roster as per my example is stupid and unecessary. At the end of 6 days you are tired and the duty so quoted is the most tiring of the lot. Thus, at a time (landing)when you should be your most sharp, you are your most below par.
Why is it necessary to work blocks of 6 days/nights? It is not. Simple.
Let's not get personal, but.......!
I have worked for various airlines where the attitude in rostering was this:
"You are entitled to 8 days off in 28, so that's all you're going to get. Now, how can we fill the other 20 days with duty."
This attitude leads to inefficient use of resources; i.e. rubbish rosters.
Why not roster the productivity, then when it's been worked the rest of the time is free. I know of pilots who have worked their limits in less than 28 days or 1 year, and then been rostered in the office because they can not have extra days off. Mad!!
The limits become the norms. Everything is to maximums and minimums. We work shifts to a random pattern. Why should we work 6 or 7 days censectutively just because it is the legal maximum. No other shift workers work 6 or 7 days; likely not even 5. The Ryanair roster is not good, it's just better than most. Do not use that as a yard stick. On the continent it is common to work 4 & 3, or 6 & 4, but within the 6 there will be 2 SBY's. Productivity is sufficient and there is chance of a social life.
To roster as per my example is stupid and unecessary. At the end of 6 days you are tired and the duty so quoted is the most tiring of the lot. Thus, at a time (landing)when you should be your most sharp, you are your most below par.
Why is it necessary to work blocks of 6 days/nights? It is not. Simple.
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So Rat 5, how do you propose that night flights should be rostered, bearing in mind 3 consecutive (2 consecutive at some airlines) and 4 in 7? Based on some statements here it is impossible to acheive adequate rest prior to reporting for a night duty; kids, neighbours, dogs, et al.
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BT:
Night flights are part of the industry, agreed. However, it's the combinatiions that are the problem. After 2 night flights, or earlies for that matter, anything that causes sleep deprevation, there needs to be a recovery period of a normal sleep cycle. When there is a roster that includes continuous disruption to the sleep pattern it does not allow for the batteries to recharge. thus, during the last couple of days of a block of 6, you are below par. If blocks of 6 are really deemed necessary, and that's debateable, the last day should have the most sympathetic duty, not the worst. If not, then, at the end of the block, the days off are just for that recharge; not real quality time off at all.
For night flight blocks, they could be done in pairs, perhaps 2 nights, day off, 2 nights, 4 off. normal shift workers do 4 ON, 4 off. They claim it allows a pattern. I'm sure that is very individual. What is true, IMHO,is that a block of nights is easier in a good quiet hotel rather than at home.
I once did freight for a year. 5 consecutive nights, 2 days off, on & on. Not recommended for the over 30's. Pure young man's stuff.
I'm convinced that the annual productivity can be achieved in a better manner. In one airline, 18 years ago, there was a cap,of 700 hours. This was seasonal, so the summers were hard and the winters relaxed. The company made profit and generally the life style was acceptable. Later, after I'd left, this cap was removed and pilots could then do upto 900. That is nearly 3 months extra productivity. I don't believe the airline made more profit, but the crews' lives were wrecked. For what? More people pollution, and greater strain on the aviation system. certainly not more profit for the shareholders.
Night flights are part of the industry, agreed. However, it's the combinatiions that are the problem. After 2 night flights, or earlies for that matter, anything that causes sleep deprevation, there needs to be a recovery period of a normal sleep cycle. When there is a roster that includes continuous disruption to the sleep pattern it does not allow for the batteries to recharge. thus, during the last couple of days of a block of 6, you are below par. If blocks of 6 are really deemed necessary, and that's debateable, the last day should have the most sympathetic duty, not the worst. If not, then, at the end of the block, the days off are just for that recharge; not real quality time off at all.
For night flight blocks, they could be done in pairs, perhaps 2 nights, day off, 2 nights, 4 off. normal shift workers do 4 ON, 4 off. They claim it allows a pattern. I'm sure that is very individual. What is true, IMHO,is that a block of nights is easier in a good quiet hotel rather than at home.
I once did freight for a year. 5 consecutive nights, 2 days off, on & on. Not recommended for the over 30's. Pure young man's stuff.
I'm convinced that the annual productivity can be achieved in a better manner. In one airline, 18 years ago, there was a cap,of 700 hours. This was seasonal, so the summers were hard and the winters relaxed. The company made profit and generally the life style was acceptable. Later, after I'd left, this cap was removed and pilots could then do upto 900. That is nearly 3 months extra productivity. I don't believe the airline made more profit, but the crews' lives were wrecked. For what? More people pollution, and greater strain on the aviation system. certainly not more profit for the shareholders.
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Rat 5........you're totally correct about rostering patterns that defy all commonsense.
WangEye....your input is welcomed. It's a seriously interesting point you make. Probably in the long run this is the only way things will change.
At risk of repeating myself, It just boggles my mind that the airline industry has come to this. It should be so simple. We are at the sharp end. People die (including us) if we make a mistake. Shift workers usually do 4 on/4 off or similar. We work very disruptive shifts, likely to cause fatigue, including time zone changes. Why on earth then is there any question of us working 6 on/2 off? Complete madness.
WangEye....your input is welcomed. It's a seriously interesting point you make. Probably in the long run this is the only way things will change.
At risk of repeating myself, It just boggles my mind that the airline industry has come to this. It should be so simple. We are at the sharp end. People die (including us) if we make a mistake. Shift workers usually do 4 on/4 off or similar. We work very disruptive shifts, likely to cause fatigue, including time zone changes. Why on earth then is there any question of us working 6 on/2 off? Complete madness.
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Pilots hours
The last few posts are excellent by people who clearly understand what the problems are in the the airline industry.
So many accidents are put down to crew error and lets do another CRM course. The real problem is that tired crew members make poor decisions under stress. That can be at any time of day if you have been issued with a roster that demands too much from the average human being.
Pilots and crew are not superman or wonderwoman.
It should not be normal to work 7 days in a row with a chaotic roster. The public deserve better. It is unacceptable to be DRUNK in charge of an aircraft but being overworked can have the same effect and is approved of by the law.
So many accidents are put down to crew error and lets do another CRM course. The real problem is that tired crew members make poor decisions under stress. That can be at any time of day if you have been issued with a roster that demands too much from the average human being.
Pilots and crew are not superman or wonderwoman.
It should not be normal to work 7 days in a row with a chaotic roster. The public deserve better. It is unacceptable to be DRUNK in charge of an aircraft but being overworked can have the same effect and is approved of by the law.
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There is one other point that has not been spelt out. All the disruption to sleep patterns is one thing; all the disruption to one's private life due to roster changes is another. The tiredness that the duty times cause is excentuated because there is so little quality time off with friends, family hobbies etc.
This erodes morale, as has been stated. However, when you have crews going to work in a pi@*ed off mood, and the source of that attitude is the employer who is identified by the uniform and the paint job on the a/c, I believe there is a safety aspect to that.
Much of CRM courses I've been on tell us to be careful about our inner attitude and any destabilising effects that close problems may have on our decision making when flying. Becareful, and if in doubt, perhaps take yourself off a flight. If the source of the anger is the very work enviroment itself (last minute roster change etc. etc), surely that is quite significant in the safety world??
In my last ops manuals there was the clause about management being aware how their actions might effect morale and the effect that would have on Flight Safety. Fine sentiments, but hollow words. If they paid any head to them there would be much better rostering policies. I'd take a stab at betting that the most common gripe amongst crews is not money, or duty hours; it's the roster patterns and the constant changes that really erk them.
Low morale is countered by professionalism. There has to be a breaking point when it doesn't work out. Add tiredness and low experience into the equation.........................
This erodes morale, as has been stated. However, when you have crews going to work in a pi@*ed off mood, and the source of that attitude is the employer who is identified by the uniform and the paint job on the a/c, I believe there is a safety aspect to that.
Much of CRM courses I've been on tell us to be careful about our inner attitude and any destabilising effects that close problems may have on our decision making when flying. Becareful, and if in doubt, perhaps take yourself off a flight. If the source of the anger is the very work enviroment itself (last minute roster change etc. etc), surely that is quite significant in the safety world??
In my last ops manuals there was the clause about management being aware how their actions might effect morale and the effect that would have on Flight Safety. Fine sentiments, but hollow words. If they paid any head to them there would be much better rostering policies. I'd take a stab at betting that the most common gripe amongst crews is not money, or duty hours; it's the roster patterns and the constant changes that really erk them.
Low morale is countered by professionalism. There has to be a breaking point when it doesn't work out. Add tiredness and low experience into the equation.........................
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RAT 5 / Maximum
8 days in 28 days is based on Officebod working 9-5 Mon - Fri
with Sat / Sun off and 42.5 hrs a week, with Crews its 190 hours in 4 weeks so average of 47.5 hrs per week. The logic that SRG quote is if you work a busy 7 days, chances are the 14 day limit will catch you then the 4 week limit if your being worked really hard. (you also need to work to rolling totals,not fixed weeks)
So, we agree that you work 24/7 so cannot be compared to Office bods. However,I would argue that whilst you shouldn't be compared to Office Bods like us Rostering idiots,how about being compared similar "well paid" jobs such as Office Managers / Docters / Lawyers etc. Which of these work an average 47.5 week?. Not many, more like 70+ / 280 over 4 weeks etc.
That's why you have CAP371 as it gives you a certain level of protection,maybe not brilliant but i still believe CAP371 is out of date and is in urgent need of modernisation to take into account social views as well.
And Rat i know plenty of shift workers who do 7 nights,12 hrs (and have 6 days off) and quiet a few who do 2100-0530 Mon-Fri
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)
8 days in 28 days is based on Officebod working 9-5 Mon - Fri
with Sat / Sun off and 42.5 hrs a week, with Crews its 190 hours in 4 weeks so average of 47.5 hrs per week. The logic that SRG quote is if you work a busy 7 days, chances are the 14 day limit will catch you then the 4 week limit if your being worked really hard. (you also need to work to rolling totals,not fixed weeks)
So, we agree that you work 24/7 so cannot be compared to Office bods. However,I would argue that whilst you shouldn't be compared to Office Bods like us Rostering idiots,how about being compared similar "well paid" jobs such as Office Managers / Docters / Lawyers etc. Which of these work an average 47.5 week?. Not many, more like 70+ / 280 over 4 weeks etc.
That's why you have CAP371 as it gives you a certain level of protection,maybe not brilliant but i still believe CAP371 is out of date and is in urgent need of modernisation to take into account social views as well.
And Rat i know plenty of shift workers who do 7 nights,12 hrs (and have 6 days off) and quiet a few who do 2100-0530 Mon-Fri
off Sunday and start again (so just feel sorry for them)