pilots against hours increase
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Yarby
the 5 on 3 off works well. The main problem is the length of the duties, and if the other link on flight duty hours changes is turning up some worrying aspects. If there is no 28 day limit then we are all ******. As for BALPA, well i would love to read there article on flying more than 100 hours per month but I stopped my BALPA membership as they gave up on the Ryanair pilots at the first hurdle and have been slagging them of ever since.
As for the IAA well i wouldn't be suprised if they were behind the proposals for longer hours. It fits in with MOL's world plan.
corruption at the top stinks like a dead fish in your flightbag
the 5 on 3 off works well. The main problem is the length of the duties, and if the other link on flight duty hours changes is turning up some worrying aspects. If there is no 28 day limit then we are all ******. As for BALPA, well i would love to read there article on flying more than 100 hours per month but I stopped my BALPA membership as they gave up on the Ryanair pilots at the first hurdle and have been slagging them of ever since.
As for the IAA well i wouldn't be suprised if they were behind the proposals for longer hours. It fits in with MOL's world plan.
corruption at the top stinks like a dead fish in your flightbag
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Moonraker:
I think you will find that it is an average of 40 hours over a 17 week period.
Is the 900 hours limit total duty time or just the flying element?
If it is total duty time you could do all 900 hours in 17 weeks by doing 52 hours each week.
If it is just the flying element, on average, how many additional hours do you do each year (excluding travel to and from duty)?
If i work in an office the working time directive protects me such that i do not have to work more than 40 hours per week
Is the 900 hours limit total duty time or just the flying element?
If it is total duty time you could do all 900 hours in 17 weeks by doing 52 hours each week.
If it is just the flying element, on average, how many additional hours do you do each year (excluding travel to and from duty)?
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At least the Parliament has made the effort to draw SOMETHING up.
Take a close look at the European Union document. The European Commission's opening section was 25 WORDS LONG. The Parliament's amendment to it runs to ELEVEN PAGES. It might not be what pilots want, but it looks like the Parliament is doing all the work that the Commission should have done.
Take a close look at the European Union document. The European Commission's opening section was 25 WORDS LONG. The Parliament's amendment to it runs to ELEVEN PAGES. It might not be what pilots want, but it looks like the Parliament is doing all the work that the Commission should have done.
Pilots' Pal
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While the important issue of pilots' hours is in focus, consider the UK maintenance engineer working on the aircraft who has no statutory limits placed on his working hours. Airworthiness Notice 47 is deliberately woolly.
Good luck, flyboys and flygirls!
Good luck, flyboys and flygirls!
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The following parts of the report may be of interest :
Section E 1.2
1.2 The minimum rest which must be provided before undertaking a flight duty period starting away from base shall be at least as long as the preceding flight duty period or 10 hours whichever is the greater; when on minimum rest away from base, the operator must allow for an 8 hour sleep opportunity taking due account of travelling and other physiological needs;
and E1.3
1.3 Notwithstanding 1.2 and provided that an adequate level of safety is demonstrated, the responsible Civil Aviation Authority will grant reduced rest arrangements based on existing national legal provisions.
<why make the regulation anyway ... ? 1.3 overrides 1.2 >
and the last paragraph of the report ...
.....
<pasted direct from the text. you should read the whole of the conclusions>
Your rapporteur finds it unbelievable that the Cockpit Trade Unions don't support his proposals because they will be flying too long and that IACA don't support them because they want pilots to fly longer hours. Such an unholy alliance is difficult to comprehend and illustrates vividly the difficult task that your rapporteur has been faced with.
It is unusual to find such language in an official EU document.
Section E 1.2
1.2 The minimum rest which must be provided before undertaking a flight duty period starting away from base shall be at least as long as the preceding flight duty period or 10 hours whichever is the greater; when on minimum rest away from base, the operator must allow for an 8 hour sleep opportunity taking due account of travelling and other physiological needs;
and E1.3
1.3 Notwithstanding 1.2 and provided that an adequate level of safety is demonstrated, the responsible Civil Aviation Authority will grant reduced rest arrangements based on existing national legal provisions.
<why make the regulation anyway ... ? 1.3 overrides 1.2 >
and the last paragraph of the report ...
.....
<pasted direct from the text. you should read the whole of the conclusions>
Your rapporteur finds it unbelievable that the Cockpit Trade Unions don't support his proposals because they will be flying too long and that IACA don't support them because they want pilots to fly longer hours. Such an unholy alliance is difficult to comprehend and illustrates vividly the difficult task that your rapporteur has been faced with.
It is unusual to find such language in an official EU document.
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maximum of 55 duty hours in 7 consecutive days
Day 1. Check in and prepare for the long flight ahead. Check the weather, routing etc then find your seat and punch in the AP details.
Following pushback, startup and move out to the runway. Line up and, if your feeling brave today, take off. Floowing the required checks etc, enable the AP and sit back with a coffee and the Times crossword.
Every now and then for the next 9 hours, check the instruments to make sure that everything is OK and read the rest of the paper.
Time to liven up, fly the approach manually, land, shutdown and following any paperwork 1/2 an hour later you are on your way to the hotel for a well earned rest.
Day 2. Rest
Day 3. Repeat Day 1 if unlucky or day 2 if lucky.
Day 4. Rest
Day 5. ..... Well you get the picture.
So in one week, they do maybe 36 duty hours, but only actually work about 10 hours, get lots of holidays in the sun with all the TD's and then complain that they don't get enough time off or money.
I agree that the short haul jockeys among you have a different story, but you have to get the seniority somewhere.
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Bob Brown:-
You are either stirring it, or you know nothing about the subject.
If the case is the former, please don't. This is too important a matter for that, since the figures Brian Simpson used are merely a political solution and have no reference whatsoever to any scientific study into Human Factors and Physiology. Simpson has also several times rejected any BALPA, EAA, and IFALPA input, preferring to accept only the contributions of the airlines.
If the case is the latter, then please go away and leave the grown-ups in peace.
Remember - flight safety directly affects YOU.
I suspect that Simpson is either choosing to ignore or can't see the coming storm when one airline in one country sees their competitors in another country able to squeeze more work out of their pilots and demands a "level playing field".
What is it about politicians? Do they all check their brains at the door before walking into Westminster or Brussels or wherever?
You are either stirring it, or you know nothing about the subject.
If the case is the former, please don't. This is too important a matter for that, since the figures Brian Simpson used are merely a political solution and have no reference whatsoever to any scientific study into Human Factors and Physiology. Simpson has also several times rejected any BALPA, EAA, and IFALPA input, preferring to accept only the contributions of the airlines.
If the case is the latter, then please go away and leave the grown-ups in peace.
Remember - flight safety directly affects YOU.
I suspect that Simpson is either choosing to ignore or can't see the coming storm when one airline in one country sees their competitors in another country able to squeeze more work out of their pilots and demands a "level playing field".
What is it about politicians? Do they all check their brains at the door before walking into Westminster or Brussels or wherever?
I call you back
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Duty limits
When deciding to support pilots all over Europe did Mr. Simpson ask meet with any of the pilots associations? Did he accept contributions from the ECA or IFALPA? Did he consult with the various bodies conducting research into pilot fatigue?
The pilots of Europe can do without this sort of support.
The pilots of Europe can do without this sort of support.
Can we at PPRuNe HQ ( deep in the bowels of an agreeable Southern French chateau ) organise a coherent campain against this madness?
Methinks it is time for the forum to step out of the shadows...
WWW
Methinks it is time for the forum to step out of the shadows...
WWW
Thread Starter
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The shadow
Glad to see so many replies. I had the feeling this was going to be a major subject.
Today I witnessed the strike of my colleagues in Italy, but believe we need more. Unity across the nations is our only hope. We shall try to steer the decision makers in the right direction.
Also honoured and humbled by the precence of our moderator, I will agree we need more visibility. I also believe we are overdue for action. Any ideas?
Let's do it, folks.
"United we stand, divided we fall..."
The Meerkat
Today I witnessed the strike of my colleagues in Italy, but believe we need more. Unity across the nations is our only hope. We shall try to steer the decision makers in the right direction.
Also honoured and humbled by the precence of our moderator, I will agree we need more visibility. I also believe we are overdue for action. Any ideas?
Let's do it, folks.
"United we stand, divided we fall..."
The Meerkat
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I think it is about time the CAA recinded its "jump seat Ban policy", just a one off mind you. Then let Mr Simpson put his money where his mouth is and invite, nae, (consign) him on to the jump seat of a regional /jet operator, for lets say 12 months.
This would allow Mr Simpson to experience first hand, the delights of short haul,
6 sector days with max duty hours, minimun turnaround times and minimum rest through out all weather conditions. Fog, CAT, High X wind limits, Turbulence and not to mention Slippery when wet, with all the delights of diverting coz you're down to min fuel in the hold due any of the aformentioned.
His duty day of course would be extended just like ours, due to excersizing our "Discrection" to keep the ball rolling and keeping the show on the road.
May I suggest for starters BHD-IOM-LCY-JER-LCY-IOM-BHD.
For the first 3 earlies, followed by 3 Lates of, 2xBHD-LWGs followed by the same early sequence but on lates to make up the proposed 7th day ?
We will of course allow him the proposed 36 hours off before repeating the whole thing again.
If he is sick on any of the flights then he gets a rap over the knuckles with the blunt end of the fire axe and then gets to clean it up.
If he falls asleep at any time (obviously due to fatigue) then he gets a rap round the knuckles with the sharp end of the fire axe.
(this will also demostrate to him that nail files and tweezers would have been pretty useless when we have Conan the Barbarian's favourite weapon of choice immediately to hand).
After the reallity sinks in I very much doubt that he would want to continue the rest of his "programme."
12 months ? now I not a betting man but....
Rant Over. WWW, you are absolutely right mate, something
needs to be done, sooner rather than later !
Not edited for spelling coz its far tooo early in the morning.............and you know 36 hours rest and things.
This would allow Mr Simpson to experience first hand, the delights of short haul,
6 sector days with max duty hours, minimun turnaround times and minimum rest through out all weather conditions. Fog, CAT, High X wind limits, Turbulence and not to mention Slippery when wet, with all the delights of diverting coz you're down to min fuel in the hold due any of the aformentioned.
His duty day of course would be extended just like ours, due to excersizing our "Discrection" to keep the ball rolling and keeping the show on the road.
May I suggest for starters BHD-IOM-LCY-JER-LCY-IOM-BHD.
For the first 3 earlies, followed by 3 Lates of, 2xBHD-LWGs followed by the same early sequence but on lates to make up the proposed 7th day ?
We will of course allow him the proposed 36 hours off before repeating the whole thing again.
If he is sick on any of the flights then he gets a rap over the knuckles with the blunt end of the fire axe and then gets to clean it up.
If he falls asleep at any time (obviously due to fatigue) then he gets a rap round the knuckles with the sharp end of the fire axe.
(this will also demostrate to him that nail files and tweezers would have been pretty useless when we have Conan the Barbarian's favourite weapon of choice immediately to hand).
After the reallity sinks in I very much doubt that he would want to continue the rest of his "programme."
12 months ? now I not a betting man but....
Rant Over. WWW, you are absolutely right mate, something
needs to be done, sooner rather than later !
Not edited for spelling coz its far tooo early in the morning.............and you know 36 hours rest and things.
Last edited by Smokie; 22nd Jan 2003 at 00:50.
I call you back
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For the uninformed Bob Brown
There is a difference between duty time and flight time. If you do 52 hours flight time a week for short haulers that is at least 104 hours duty time. That doesn't allow for sim, reserves, ground school, special courses, medicals, leave or a life in general.
Longhaul if you do 52 hour flightime a month you are still doing at least 62 hours duty time with the added thrill of the jet-lag. Anyone who says sitting in the cockpit for 10 hours isn't work has obviously never done it.
You either have no idea what you are talking about or are deliberately misleading those who don't. Are you a manager?
We can give you your own thread. Let's call it Brown stuff!
Longhaul if you do 52 hour flightime a month you are still doing at least 62 hours duty time with the added thrill of the jet-lag. Anyone who says sitting in the cockpit for 10 hours isn't work has obviously never done it.
You either have no idea what you are talking about or are deliberately misleading those who don't. Are you a manager?
We can give you your own thread. Let's call it Brown stuff!
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Gentlemen,why have 10 days passed between my last post and the reply?I have been pressing the issue for years (one of the reasons I had to change my pprune name).Italian FTL are a disgrace and have been for decades.Prodi,de Palacio,Monti etc shame on you and well' remember the name Brian Simpson...
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Thought you might like his email address and website. Nothing about aviation unless it is under "Foot and mouth" 
[email protected]
http://www.briansimpson.co.uk/
[email protected]
http://www.briansimpson.co.uk/
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Posts: n/a
Saw this in the Oirish newspapers. Anyone including the public can voice their objection if they feel uncomforable of being flown by pilotswho may have been at the controls for 14 hours at a stretch several times a week, or without sufficient rest periods between flights
For Ireland contact
Mr Seamus Brennan TD (Minister of Transpost)
Department of Transport
44 Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Email: [email protected]
Or Council of Transport Ministers, 175, rue de la Loi,
B-1040 Brussels.
Or contact your local European Parliament Member at:
European Parliament,
Rue Wiertz, B-1047
Brussels.
Good luck lads, the proposals seem inhuman to me. Obviously made by some idiot politicians.
Now get voting!!!
Emerald
For Ireland contact
Mr Seamus Brennan TD (Minister of Transpost)
Department of Transport
44 Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Email: [email protected]
Or Council of Transport Ministers, 175, rue de la Loi,
B-1040 Brussels.
Or contact your local European Parliament Member at:
European Parliament,
Rue Wiertz, B-1047
Brussels.
Good luck lads, the proposals seem inhuman to me. Obviously made by some idiot politicians.
Now get voting!!!
Emerald
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We should not be campaigning to stop an increase in hours, but a reduction. The various AA's are in the hands of the financial bosses of the airlines. They wear 2 hats and wish to preserve the financial strength of the companies in a supposed safe enviroment. Too often have I seen the AA's relax the rules to an airline pleading for survival. Note the recommendation to the FAA after Valujet. It was strongly recommended that the FAA could not police saftey and commercial vialbility. Conflict of interests. (not sure what happened).
In early 90's the EU workers charter was brought in. This covered all the goodies from volume of working space, to rest breaks and average duty times. I'm sure we all have heard of these cossetted conditions. 45 cubic metres, temp controlled, regular breaks from work station, max 40hrs average etc. etc. Kinnock, the then transport commissioner, gave public transport a dispensation for a few years to come up will a cunning plan to implement something similar in its unique enviroment.
In the meantime the industries were supposed to implement a compensation package to its workers!
What happened? NOWT. The national flag carriers and their associated unions already had a cushy number. It was those at level 2 & 3 who kept the old working practices.
After a few years in mid 90's Kinnock lost his rag (gently) and insisted something be done and for the industries to stop dragging their feet.
What happened? NOWT. What did the unions do? NOWT. Kinnock's gone and where are we now? On the slope to even worse affairs. So 10 years after all ground workers received a better deal the aircrew at the sharp end of safety are being squeezed even more. Heath & Safety? Not once your airborne!
What do the public know about it? NOWT.
Remember the crash of B737 at Coventry. CAA sighted fatigue and yet the crew (Algerian) were well within CAP371. What if that freighter had instead been a pax B747 at Birmigham???
The CAA have said that CAP 371 is not a safe guard to fatigue and that they expect companies to devise a rostering scheme to give a balance between good productivity and quality time off at home for crews. Have the FOI's policed this philosophy? NO.
Have the unions policed this policy? In the flag carriers, yes! National unions should be just that. Safety and quality of life should be national, not company dependant.
In most ops manuals there is a statement in the safety section that "management should be aware the effect its decisions might have on morale and the effect of that on Flight Safety." Fine words, but following some threads on Prune about various airlines, that seems to have been totally ignored.
The drop in quality of life of an airline pilot, relative to the common work force, and even the ground staff within the same airline, brings me to the opinion that flying airliners is no longer fun and I would not recommend anyone to do the job, unless they can guarantee a major employer at the start of training. The quality of life expectation is too much of a lottery. If you want fun in flying, get a proper job with enough money and time off to fly small a/c for fun.
Regarding errosion of T's & C's and the decline of status/quality of work enviroment, call it what you will, and the union's roll in allowing it to happen, plus the historical greed of crews; remember the B747-100 all those years ago, nearly 40?
The bubble on top was for the crew rest area. The crews let them take it for a 1st class cocktail lounge (for more wide-body money) and management have branded us prostitutes ever since.
Now see where that has got us! It will be a long climb back up but in some EU contries the FTL's are downright dangerous to health, crews and pax, and as we've read in the ej thread, even in UK you can forget about a family or social life. Who there has time for hobbies?
It is far more than just NOT INCREASING HOURS it is more about ACHIEVING A NORMAL HEALTHY LIFE. To do that I believe there needs to be a whole revamp of the way we work.
Management have pressurised the AA's to extend FTL's to match a/c performance. God help us when the A380, or 340-600 starts flying charters.
Remember the public reaction when the long distance coaches to Athens started falling off the roads? Horror.
Remember what happened whan MP's were caught up in the ATC delays to BRU? S**T hit the fan and ATC delays became a priority. God forbid that a pilot fatigue crash with some MP's should happen, but it would target their thinking.
Public opinion did wonders for the doctors. A fatigued surgeon might kill 1 person, a fatigued pilot.............
It is ackowledged that the human is the weakest link in the accident chain. It seems that the outsiders expect technology to solve the problem by replacing many human actions, but they've lost the plot in understanding that at the same time, in many ways, they've weaked further the weakest link. See the latest stat's for 2002, an increase.
Pilot error is often the easy excuse. It is often heavily contributed to by managment and rostering error. Little investigation is done into why some qualified and competant pilots acted in such a strange way. CFIT is a classic case.
Long duty times on a single day is not too bad, but repeated daily, and with changing sleep patterns??? Why should the general work force have had such an imrovement in their quality of life and the crews have gone downhill so much?
Back to point 1. it is about reversing matters not stopping them getting worse.
Rant over and sorry for the spelling.
And yes, it did get so bad I quit.
In early 90's the EU workers charter was brought in. This covered all the goodies from volume of working space, to rest breaks and average duty times. I'm sure we all have heard of these cossetted conditions. 45 cubic metres, temp controlled, regular breaks from work station, max 40hrs average etc. etc. Kinnock, the then transport commissioner, gave public transport a dispensation for a few years to come up will a cunning plan to implement something similar in its unique enviroment.
In the meantime the industries were supposed to implement a compensation package to its workers!
What happened? NOWT. The national flag carriers and their associated unions already had a cushy number. It was those at level 2 & 3 who kept the old working practices.
After a few years in mid 90's Kinnock lost his rag (gently) and insisted something be done and for the industries to stop dragging their feet.
What happened? NOWT. What did the unions do? NOWT. Kinnock's gone and where are we now? On the slope to even worse affairs. So 10 years after all ground workers received a better deal the aircrew at the sharp end of safety are being squeezed even more. Heath & Safety? Not once your airborne!
What do the public know about it? NOWT.
Remember the crash of B737 at Coventry. CAA sighted fatigue and yet the crew (Algerian) were well within CAP371. What if that freighter had instead been a pax B747 at Birmigham???
The CAA have said that CAP 371 is not a safe guard to fatigue and that they expect companies to devise a rostering scheme to give a balance between good productivity and quality time off at home for crews. Have the FOI's policed this philosophy? NO.
Have the unions policed this policy? In the flag carriers, yes! National unions should be just that. Safety and quality of life should be national, not company dependant.
In most ops manuals there is a statement in the safety section that "management should be aware the effect its decisions might have on morale and the effect of that on Flight Safety." Fine words, but following some threads on Prune about various airlines, that seems to have been totally ignored.
The drop in quality of life of an airline pilot, relative to the common work force, and even the ground staff within the same airline, brings me to the opinion that flying airliners is no longer fun and I would not recommend anyone to do the job, unless they can guarantee a major employer at the start of training. The quality of life expectation is too much of a lottery. If you want fun in flying, get a proper job with enough money and time off to fly small a/c for fun.
Regarding errosion of T's & C's and the decline of status/quality of work enviroment, call it what you will, and the union's roll in allowing it to happen, plus the historical greed of crews; remember the B747-100 all those years ago, nearly 40?
The bubble on top was for the crew rest area. The crews let them take it for a 1st class cocktail lounge (for more wide-body money) and management have branded us prostitutes ever since.
Now see where that has got us! It will be a long climb back up but in some EU contries the FTL's are downright dangerous to health, crews and pax, and as we've read in the ej thread, even in UK you can forget about a family or social life. Who there has time for hobbies?
It is far more than just NOT INCREASING HOURS it is more about ACHIEVING A NORMAL HEALTHY LIFE. To do that I believe there needs to be a whole revamp of the way we work.
Management have pressurised the AA's to extend FTL's to match a/c performance. God help us when the A380, or 340-600 starts flying charters.
Remember the public reaction when the long distance coaches to Athens started falling off the roads? Horror.
Remember what happened whan MP's were caught up in the ATC delays to BRU? S**T hit the fan and ATC delays became a priority. God forbid that a pilot fatigue crash with some MP's should happen, but it would target their thinking.
Public opinion did wonders for the doctors. A fatigued surgeon might kill 1 person, a fatigued pilot.............
It is ackowledged that the human is the weakest link in the accident chain. It seems that the outsiders expect technology to solve the problem by replacing many human actions, but they've lost the plot in understanding that at the same time, in many ways, they've weaked further the weakest link. See the latest stat's for 2002, an increase.
Pilot error is often the easy excuse. It is often heavily contributed to by managment and rostering error. Little investigation is done into why some qualified and competant pilots acted in such a strange way. CFIT is a classic case.
Long duty times on a single day is not too bad, but repeated daily, and with changing sleep patterns??? Why should the general work force have had such an imrovement in their quality of life and the crews have gone downhill so much?
Back to point 1. it is about reversing matters not stopping them getting worse.
Rant over and sorry for the spelling.
And yes, it did get so bad I quit.