pilots against hours increase
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Mr Angry from Purley
I'm sorry, but I'm not clear from your post exactly what your point is. Do you think pilots' hours and shift patterns lead to fatigue, and therefore are dangerous, or don't you?
You say
A few points in response to this:
1.) Why do we need to compare ourselves to other professions? It doesn't make our own case any more or less valid.
2.) If you do want to make comparisons, then compare like with like, which I don't think you're doing.
3.) Our job subjects us to usually four pressurisation cycles a day, and an office atmospheric pressure equivalent to 8000' altitude. These cycles and the depleted oxygen levels are known to produce fatigue in themselves.
4.) We are subject to high levels of noise in the cockpit, both from exterior and interior airflow, and ATC. Try doing a long day in a B737-400 with both recirc fans on - it's ****ing noisy. Again this can lead to fatigue.
5.) Low level, high frequency vibration - again, known to produce fatigue.
6.) Hundreds of lives are in our hands. This is a very unusual job in that we are expected not only to use our mental ability and experience, but do something that requires good motor skills as well - this is where fatigue can be a real killer. We can't have an off day.
7.) I've worked long hours in a few different jobs, and I know when I've felt most exhausted.
Anyway, as I said above, I think it's spurious to compare with other jobs otherwise we get into the Pythonesque "....luxury, we used to live in a cardboard box and lick road clean wit' tongue" school of debate.
Again, a bottom line for you in order to make my point nice and clear and simple.
We are subject to the normal hassles that most people experience at work. On top of this however, we are subject to environmental stresses and very disruptive shift work. We are expected to show sound judgement and a good level of hand/eye co-ordination without fail. Hundreds of lives are in our hands. Yet we are constantly battling fatigue. We are exhausted, and just don't get enough down time to recover. Any sane person would say this is a recipe for disaster. The End.
I'm sorry, but I'm not clear from your post exactly what your point is. Do you think pilots' hours and shift patterns lead to fatigue, and therefore are dangerous, or don't you?
You say
So, we agree that you work 24/7 so cannot be compared to Office bods. However,I would argue that whilst you shouldn't be compared to Office Bods like us Rostering idiots,how about being compared similar "well paid" jobs such as Office Managers / Docters / Lawyers etc. Which of these work an average 47.5 week?. Not many, more like 70+ / 280 over 4 weeks etc.
1.) Why do we need to compare ourselves to other professions? It doesn't make our own case any more or less valid.
2.) If you do want to make comparisons, then compare like with like, which I don't think you're doing.
3.) Our job subjects us to usually four pressurisation cycles a day, and an office atmospheric pressure equivalent to 8000' altitude. These cycles and the depleted oxygen levels are known to produce fatigue in themselves.
4.) We are subject to high levels of noise in the cockpit, both from exterior and interior airflow, and ATC. Try doing a long day in a B737-400 with both recirc fans on - it's ****ing noisy. Again this can lead to fatigue.
5.) Low level, high frequency vibration - again, known to produce fatigue.
6.) Hundreds of lives are in our hands. This is a very unusual job in that we are expected not only to use our mental ability and experience, but do something that requires good motor skills as well - this is where fatigue can be a real killer. We can't have an off day.
7.) I've worked long hours in a few different jobs, and I know when I've felt most exhausted.
Anyway, as I said above, I think it's spurious to compare with other jobs otherwise we get into the Pythonesque "....luxury, we used to live in a cardboard box and lick road clean wit' tongue" school of debate.
Again, a bottom line for you in order to make my point nice and clear and simple.
We are subject to the normal hassles that most people experience at work. On top of this however, we are subject to environmental stresses and very disruptive shift work. We are expected to show sound judgement and a good level of hand/eye co-ordination without fail. Hundreds of lives are in our hands. Yet we are constantly battling fatigue. We are exhausted, and just don't get enough down time to recover. Any sane person would say this is a recipe for disaster. The End.
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Hmmm, Maximum mentions "the end".
Well, yes indeed, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Pilots "overworked"?....phooey.
The duty time limits have been established so that pilots CAN get adequate rest between duty periods.
IF their private family arrangements (or other requirements) are such that they cannot obtain said adequate rest, then a change of occupation is in order. Airline companies do NOT arrange pilot schedules to suit the employees...'tis to suit the flight schedules.
There are PLENTY to take their place in todays marketplace.
Bankers hours are for bankers, like it or not....any many certainly will not.
Too bad.
Well, yes indeed, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Pilots "overworked"?....phooey.
The duty time limits have been established so that pilots CAN get adequate rest between duty periods.
IF their private family arrangements (or other requirements) are such that they cannot obtain said adequate rest, then a change of occupation is in order. Airline companies do NOT arrange pilot schedules to suit the employees...'tis to suit the flight schedules.
There are PLENTY to take their place in todays marketplace.
Bankers hours are for bankers, like it or not....any many certainly will not.
Too bad.
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411A, thank you for your expert opinion.
When have you flown to European limits?
I have read your replies for some time now and you appear to have been current on jet transports once in the dim and distant past. You don’t appear to be currently employed by a European airline or am I wrong?
While I’m sure that you believe everything you post, there is a body of evidence that has been gathered by a very reliable institution called NASA…you may have heard of them. They as an organisation have conducted an investigation into flight crew fatigue and a report can be seen
here.
On balance I am inclined to give NASA’s conclusion more credence than yours.
Regards.
When have you flown to European limits?
I have read your replies for some time now and you appear to have been current on jet transports once in the dim and distant past. You don’t appear to be currently employed by a European airline or am I wrong?
While I’m sure that you believe everything you post, there is a body of evidence that has been gathered by a very reliable institution called NASA…you may have heard of them. They as an organisation have conducted an investigation into flight crew fatigue and a report can be seen
here.
On balance I am inclined to give NASA’s conclusion more credence than yours.
Regards.
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411A, you're just a sad wan..r.
You don't even realise what you're saying. And that is making me even happier grounding my aircraft when time comes, at the most minute order from the Unions, simply because I won't let my family and my health down because of people like you. You'll be sorry when that happens because most pilots will realise they have nothing to lose.
You've never been in 737 for 6 days in a row, have you ? You've never gone to bed at midnight and woken up at 4 for take off at 5:30 for a four-legger, and on ?
You must be part of management and I'll be happy to participate in taking your stock down. You'll see, you'll be laughing.
411A : "Airline companies do NOT arrange pilot schedules to suit the employees...'tis to suit the flight schedules. "
It's not a matter of arranging pilot schedules to suit employees, it's a matter of hiring an extra little bit more pilots in order for pressure to release. That will only marginaly hurt profits, hence your stocks, but do you realise how badly hurt your stocks will be when newspapers will headline about thousands of passengers left on the ground ?
You don't even realise what you're saying. And that is making me even happier grounding my aircraft when time comes, at the most minute order from the Unions, simply because I won't let my family and my health down because of people like you. You'll be sorry when that happens because most pilots will realise they have nothing to lose.
You've never been in 737 for 6 days in a row, have you ? You've never gone to bed at midnight and woken up at 4 for take off at 5:30 for a four-legger, and on ?
You must be part of management and I'll be happy to participate in taking your stock down. You'll see, you'll be laughing.
411A : "Airline companies do NOT arrange pilot schedules to suit the employees...'tis to suit the flight schedules. "
It's not a matter of arranging pilot schedules to suit employees, it's a matter of hiring an extra little bit more pilots in order for pressure to release. That will only marginaly hurt profits, hence your stocks, but do you realise how badly hurt your stocks will be when newspapers will headline about thousands of passengers left on the ground ?
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...oh my....good ol' 411A, always there to give us all a good laugh.
My, don't we all wish we could be as macho as that guy - you want me to work 12 hours without a break? Hell no, I'll work 24 hours without a break - and hey, while I'm at it I'll do it for half the money! And I tell you what, you wanna have sex with my wife and put my kids into slavery while your at it - go right ahead - 'cos you know, I'm a pilot, and hey, if you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen.
And this from someone who's made 1900 posts since he registered in March 2000. So that's 1900 posts in about 1065 days to date that's nearly two posts a day, or 12.5 posts a week, or just over 54 posts a month for three years!! And that's assuming he never goes on vacation or spends time away from home. Somebody needs to get a life.
Anyway, 411A, its always puzzled me, as a pilot why would you not want to stand up for your colleagues and fight their corner hard for better terms and conditions? Why do you consistently denigrate your profession? Why do you imply that pilots aren't worth jack sh**, and therefore by association you're not worth jack sh** either? Why do you put us down and by implication put yourself down? What a strange way for anyone with any self-worth to behave. Totally bizarre.
My, don't we all wish we could be as macho as that guy - you want me to work 12 hours without a break? Hell no, I'll work 24 hours without a break - and hey, while I'm at it I'll do it for half the money! And I tell you what, you wanna have sex with my wife and put my kids into slavery while your at it - go right ahead - 'cos you know, I'm a pilot, and hey, if you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen.
And this from someone who's made 1900 posts since he registered in March 2000. So that's 1900 posts in about 1065 days to date that's nearly two posts a day, or 12.5 posts a week, or just over 54 posts a month for three years!! And that's assuming he never goes on vacation or spends time away from home. Somebody needs to get a life.
Anyway, 411A, its always puzzled me, as a pilot why would you not want to stand up for your colleagues and fight their corner hard for better terms and conditions? Why do you consistently denigrate your profession? Why do you imply that pilots aren't worth jack sh**, and therefore by association you're not worth jack sh** either? Why do you put us down and by implication put yourself down? What a strange way for anyone with any self-worth to behave. Totally bizarre.
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Maximum - Calm down chap your heading for one, or perhaps you should be called Angry from Purley....
I came in on this chat as thought there was a discussion going on about working 6/7 days on 2 days off and i was trying to explain the logic that your licencing authority come up with when trying to defend CAP371.
Do you think the current rules in CAP371 should be reduced and to what level?.
On your point 2 do you think against EU carriers you work harder or less, i would say on average less because all the EU Airlines are kicking off over EU FTL whereas UK Airlines are sitting with fingers crossed for its introduction???
I came in on this chat as thought there was a discussion going on about working 6/7 days on 2 days off and i was trying to explain the logic that your licencing authority come up with when trying to defend CAP371.
Do you think the current rules in CAP371 should be reduced and to what level?.
On your point 2 do you think against EU carriers you work harder or less, i would say on average less because all the EU Airlines are kicking off over EU FTL whereas UK Airlines are sitting with fingers crossed for its introduction???
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No bijave, have never done six sectors in a B737...but have done six sectors in a TriStar in one day, many times, with long duty days, for five-six days in a row.
Tiring...well yes can be but consider---
If you don't, someone else will, like it or not.
Those are the realities...and are likely to remain so for a very long time.
Also, for airlines, paying overtime is always better for the bottom line than hiring additional aircrew. And, work crews to the maximum duty time...you bet. 'Tis called cost effective. However, if rostering is done correctly, a happy medium CAN be found for all.
Look at it another way...the airline that employes you is still in business, and supplying you a paycheck.
The alternative is the unemployment line. Take your choice.
Have CV's on my desk now, from VERY experienced guys, ready to work.
Suspect YOUR airline has the same.
And the guys represented in those CV's are after YOUR job.
Tiring...well yes can be but consider---
If you don't, someone else will, like it or not.
Those are the realities...and are likely to remain so for a very long time.
Also, for airlines, paying overtime is always better for the bottom line than hiring additional aircrew. And, work crews to the maximum duty time...you bet. 'Tis called cost effective. However, if rostering is done correctly, a happy medium CAN be found for all.
Look at it another way...the airline that employes you is still in business, and supplying you a paycheck.
The alternative is the unemployment line. Take your choice.
Have CV's on my desk now, from VERY experienced guys, ready to work.
Suspect YOUR airline has the same.
And the guys represented in those CV's are after YOUR job.
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....just an observation, but isn't it interesting how those who like to "stir the pudding" have a subtle way of changing the argument with every post.
Anyway, Mr Angry from Purley many thanks for telling me to calm down. Not provocative or anything eh? You still haven't answered my question, so I'll ask it again - Do you think pilots' hours and shift patterns lead to fatigue, and therefore are dangerous, or don't you?
Anyway, Mr Angry from Purley many thanks for telling me to calm down. Not provocative or anything eh? You still haven't answered my question, so I'll ask it again - Do you think pilots' hours and shift patterns lead to fatigue, and therefore are dangerous, or don't you?
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411A:
There once used to be a surplus of pilots; true. There once used to be a rush for cabin staff jobs. Not anymore. The words out, and recruiting suitable cabin staff in some companies is proving difficult. The applicants are not there.
In time I would not be surprised if the same becomes true of pilots. What is true, that in a pilot shortage period, and the crews have a choice, they will opt for the best life style and not the highest paycheck.
In your answer you seem to think that rest/sleep is what you do in the time between work. What about all the other things in life??
Mr. A
I'm glad you are asking questions, but remember this. CAP 371 is a list of limits, not norms. They are they to help keep the show on the road when sh*+ happens. The CAA says that it expects the airlines to device a roster scheme that works inside 371 with buffers and ensures quality time off at home. They have also stated, as has Chirps, that CAP371 by itself will not protect against fatigue. That is a fact and was stated to BALPA in 1998. Sadly, they've never policed it. If they had done then you would not be making you comments about working patterns of 6/2 days/nights etc. because you would not have been allowed to do it on a regular basis.
It is still a fact that the EU commission excempted public transport from the Health and Safety act because it could not be implemented without major redesign of the equipment. However, compensation schemes were supposed to have been introduced until the whole mattwer of FTL's was revamped and standardised. That compensation scheme has not happened either, and the whole matter started 10 years ago.
There was an extremely rude comment made some years ago by the chairman of the Association of Eurpean Airlines. As a/c were flying longer he wanted FTL's to be stretched. Pilots opposed this and he accused them of hijacking the whole matter to squeeze more money out of the airlines. He believed pilots would prostitute themselves on this issue.
From the posts here I believe he is wrong. There is little point in earning all this extra cash with no time to spend it.
I had it agreed by the COO in one airline that the necessary productivity could be achieved with efficient rostering during 14-16 days per month. That is what South West do, they make a handsom profit with good salaries, and are regularly voted one of the best companies to work for. There is a model. The LCA's took the commercial part of it and ignored the rest
Shame! But it can be done if there is a will. What's more it will save the airlines money. Happy crews will not leave and so not incur extra training costs, and they will not go sick, so you need less SBY's, and they will go the extra mile, so no cancellations or sub-charters. It needs the financial directors to look beyond the end of their noses. Sadly, they will not until a/c start eating concrete.
One F.D. admitted that he was undercrewed (not enough SBY cover) because he expected crews to work on their day off out of loyalty. If he had to cancel or sub-charter, it was cheaper than employing more crews. Thus, not only were rosters to the limits, but time off was often changed at the last minute. He said that until captains started leaving he would not change his policy. Easy to say when there are no alternative jobs. But what an attitude!!!
There once used to be a surplus of pilots; true. There once used to be a rush for cabin staff jobs. Not anymore. The words out, and recruiting suitable cabin staff in some companies is proving difficult. The applicants are not there.
In time I would not be surprised if the same becomes true of pilots. What is true, that in a pilot shortage period, and the crews have a choice, they will opt for the best life style and not the highest paycheck.
In your answer you seem to think that rest/sleep is what you do in the time between work. What about all the other things in life??
Mr. A
I'm glad you are asking questions, but remember this. CAP 371 is a list of limits, not norms. They are they to help keep the show on the road when sh*+ happens. The CAA says that it expects the airlines to device a roster scheme that works inside 371 with buffers and ensures quality time off at home. They have also stated, as has Chirps, that CAP371 by itself will not protect against fatigue. That is a fact and was stated to BALPA in 1998. Sadly, they've never policed it. If they had done then you would not be making you comments about working patterns of 6/2 days/nights etc. because you would not have been allowed to do it on a regular basis.
It is still a fact that the EU commission excempted public transport from the Health and Safety act because it could not be implemented without major redesign of the equipment. However, compensation schemes were supposed to have been introduced until the whole mattwer of FTL's was revamped and standardised. That compensation scheme has not happened either, and the whole matter started 10 years ago.
There was an extremely rude comment made some years ago by the chairman of the Association of Eurpean Airlines. As a/c were flying longer he wanted FTL's to be stretched. Pilots opposed this and he accused them of hijacking the whole matter to squeeze more money out of the airlines. He believed pilots would prostitute themselves on this issue.
From the posts here I believe he is wrong. There is little point in earning all this extra cash with no time to spend it.
I had it agreed by the COO in one airline that the necessary productivity could be achieved with efficient rostering during 14-16 days per month. That is what South West do, they make a handsom profit with good salaries, and are regularly voted one of the best companies to work for. There is a model. The LCA's took the commercial part of it and ignored the rest
Shame! But it can be done if there is a will. What's more it will save the airlines money. Happy crews will not leave and so not incur extra training costs, and they will not go sick, so you need less SBY's, and they will go the extra mile, so no cancellations or sub-charters. It needs the financial directors to look beyond the end of their noses. Sadly, they will not until a/c start eating concrete.
One F.D. admitted that he was undercrewed (not enough SBY cover) because he expected crews to work on their day off out of loyalty. If he had to cancel or sub-charter, it was cheaper than employing more crews. Thus, not only were rosters to the limits, but time off was often changed at the last minute. He said that until captains started leaving he would not change his policy. Easy to say when there are no alternative jobs. But what an attitude!!!
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Mr Angrey From Purley
FACT there is no logic in CAP 371. They took all the logic and reason out of the document when the GOVERNMENT approved UKCAA decided to ignore most of the scientific and medical evidence way back in 1990. Since then there has been further research which has been ignored. Why is it that a SHOP worker must have break and i can have none and no meal breaks?
As i said there is no reason or logic it is all about money and the airline management loby made up of those who can't fly aeroplane and those that can't cope with flying the line any more.
As i said there is no reason or logic it is all about money and the airline management loby made up of those who can't fly aeroplane and those that can't cope with flying the line any more.
Last edited by Moonraker One; 5th Feb 2003 at 13:55.
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Maximum
You have to believe me i'm not trying to be provocative, just trying to have a sensible discussion /arguement, honest!
In answer to your question, yes of course they do, as much as i do when i go to work for 60+ hrs a week. As Rat 5 says CAP371 is the limits but i know of few crews (except low cost perhaps) that reach those limits week in week out, or maybe i'm out of touch these days. Its not so much the limits as the frigging around social factor which is the in word these days.
I am a firm believer in Airlines / Crews being able to organise their own FTL's, for their type of operations as per JW411. This view is shared by most Crews / FOI's / Medical folk. Mind you does JW411 prefer the 8/6 for social or safety reasons or both?
RAT 5 - I think i might have worked for the company in yr last para!
Was that too bad Maximum??
You have to believe me i'm not trying to be provocative, just trying to have a sensible discussion /arguement, honest!
In answer to your question, yes of course they do, as much as i do when i go to work for 60+ hrs a week. As Rat 5 says CAP371 is the limits but i know of few crews (except low cost perhaps) that reach those limits week in week out, or maybe i'm out of touch these days. Its not so much the limits as the frigging around social factor which is the in word these days.
I am a firm believer in Airlines / Crews being able to organise their own FTL's, for their type of operations as per JW411. This view is shared by most Crews / FOI's / Medical folk. Mind you does JW411 prefer the 8/6 for social or safety reasons or both?
RAT 5 - I think i might have worked for the company in yr last para!
Was that too bad Maximum??
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Rat 5
<There once used to be a surplus of pilots; true>
Still is, and for a long while into the future.
Salaries/working conditions WILL be low(er) for a very long time, and there is really nothing you can do about it...simply a repeat of the past.
Five years from now...might be different, maybe.
Don't make the common mistake of lumping tech and cabin crew in the same pile....horses of a different stripe altogether.
<There once used to be a surplus of pilots; true>
Still is, and for a long while into the future.
Salaries/working conditions WILL be low(er) for a very long time, and there is really nothing you can do about it...simply a repeat of the past.
Five years from now...might be different, maybe.
Don't make the common mistake of lumping tech and cabin crew in the same pile....horses of a different stripe altogether.
Last edited by 411A; 6th Feb 2003 at 05:32.
411A
You argument seems to be that:
"there are lots of pilots waiting to take your job"
and
"that's how it's always been"
Because of this, pilots lucky enough to be employed should put up with any treatment whatsoever that is handed out by their employer.
Is this a fair summary?
You argument seems to be that:
"there are lots of pilots waiting to take your job"
and
"that's how it's always been"
Because of this, pilots lucky enough to be employed should put up with any treatment whatsoever that is handed out by their employer.
Is this a fair summary?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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BALPA's information came through the post to me today, contact your MEP!!
Brian Simpson is mine and most other pilots based at Manchester and Liverpool.
His email address is [email protected]
Brian Simpson is mine and most other pilots based at Manchester and Liverpool.
His email address is [email protected]
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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In this thread, 'Big Tudor' provided this link to the EU FTL proposal paper.
Subsequent to that, the IPA have circulated in 'Sky Pointer', a set of tables showing the detail of the proposals in terms of sectors/FDP. There will shortly be a link to that on their web site.
Having had a look at the tables, I think it is VITAL that we re-open this topic. As soon as I can link to the table 'electronically' I'll put the link here. Unless anyone else has a link?
Subsequent to that, the IPA have circulated in 'Sky Pointer', a set of tables showing the detail of the proposals in terms of sectors/FDP. There will shortly be a link to that on their web site.
Having had a look at the tables, I think it is VITAL that we re-open this topic. As soon as I can link to the table 'electronically' I'll put the link here. Unless anyone else has a link?