View Poll Results: Should the jump seat be available for wannabe or family familiarisation flights?
Yes, the DfT rule is idiotic
1,740
89.19%
No, there is too much risk involved
182
9.33%
No opinion
29
1.49%
Voters: 1951. This poll is closed
DfT/CAA Jump Seat Restrictions
Join Date: May 2001
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It should by up to me, as the captain, to decide who is riding on the jumpseat. If I am responsible for the safety of the flight, I am also responsable for the jumpseats.
We do not need stupid rules like that.
We do not need stupid rules like that.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: England
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I hate to be boring, but can I ask you all to focus on one issue for a while;
Not allowing access to the jump-seat and by implication therefore allowing access to the flight deck for a visit are really one and same. Whether the person is sitting in the jumpseat or standing in the cockpit, are one and the same from a security point of view.
I have a 'vested interest' in the whole issue of security and who should even be allowed to enter an airplane or indeed, a secure area in an airport. There are products and systems that could 'kill' most of the undesirables that ever get past the first security point at an airport. As I said before, once a potential terrorist gets to the threshold of an airplane, you are probably damned. No amount of security on board such as steel cockpit doors will help you, unless you adopt the practices of El-Al. They knew and they deal very effectively with threats aganst their own.
The technology is there; it costs, but no-one will take the responsibility for airline security; not the governments, the airports nor the airlines. All of these know the opportunity is there, but they won't pay for it. My question is; 'Don't you think they should? and if so, who should pay for it?' Maybe this requires a different poll?
Not allowing access to the jump-seat and by implication therefore allowing access to the flight deck for a visit are really one and same. Whether the person is sitting in the jumpseat or standing in the cockpit, are one and the same from a security point of view.
I have a 'vested interest' in the whole issue of security and who should even be allowed to enter an airplane or indeed, a secure area in an airport. There are products and systems that could 'kill' most of the undesirables that ever get past the first security point at an airport. As I said before, once a potential terrorist gets to the threshold of an airplane, you are probably damned. No amount of security on board such as steel cockpit doors will help you, unless you adopt the practices of El-Al. They knew and they deal very effectively with threats aganst their own.
The technology is there; it costs, but no-one will take the responsibility for airline security; not the governments, the airports nor the airlines. All of these know the opportunity is there, but they won't pay for it. My question is; 'Don't you think they should? and if so, who should pay for it?' Maybe this requires a different poll?
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Indeed Horatio !
We now have the farce that the flight deck door is ( apparently ) locked - but only until the crew are brought their meals, and / or regular drinks, and / or they want to use the loo, i.e it's actually unlocked & opened loads of times during most flights.
To say nothing of the fact that whilst the flight deck door might indeed be armoured to the extent that it can withstand a ballistic assault, i.e. that it can resist bullets being blindly shot through it, the areas outside of the frame which hold the said same door are not armoured at all !!
....... so, wanna pop one in the skipper on a B7737 ? It's easy, just go in the forward bog, take yer gun, aim it forwards ( i.e. through the mirror ) and blaze away - and similarly so through the RHS forward galley area to pop some in the FO.
But perhaps the best bit is that, because the flightdeck door is now so robust and ( once locked ) can only be opened from within the cockpit, should any of the above happen there is supposedly no way that anybody could then gain access from the cabin into the cockpit to rescue the controls.
Thus, as the pilots lie dead or dying, what now the Sky Marshall(s) - yer terrorist martyr has done his / her work.
So, oh what a shame that more wasn't done to stop Johnny terrorist from getting onboard in the first place, as this 'last line of defence' just is not !
We now have the farce that the flight deck door is ( apparently ) locked - but only until the crew are brought their meals, and / or regular drinks, and / or they want to use the loo, i.e it's actually unlocked & opened loads of times during most flights.
To say nothing of the fact that whilst the flight deck door might indeed be armoured to the extent that it can withstand a ballistic assault, i.e. that it can resist bullets being blindly shot through it, the areas outside of the frame which hold the said same door are not armoured at all !!
....... so, wanna pop one in the skipper on a B7737 ? It's easy, just go in the forward bog, take yer gun, aim it forwards ( i.e. through the mirror ) and blaze away - and similarly so through the RHS forward galley area to pop some in the FO.
But perhaps the best bit is that, because the flightdeck door is now so robust and ( once locked ) can only be opened from within the cockpit, should any of the above happen there is supposedly no way that anybody could then gain access from the cabin into the cockpit to rescue the controls.
Thus, as the pilots lie dead or dying, what now the Sky Marshall(s) - yer terrorist martyr has done his / her work.
So, oh what a shame that more wasn't done to stop Johnny terrorist from getting onboard in the first place, as this 'last line of defence' just is not !
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
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I would like to see people back on the jumpseat- but the problem lies in the passengers seeing people not in a uniform coming and going in and out of the flight deck (longhaul)- in todays hypersensitive world I just dont see it happening. But shorthaul it would be nice to lock the wannabes back in with us for the whole flight.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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You can ban who you like.
You can even unscrew the jumpseat and remove it altogether.
Your plane is still potentially full of loonies you know jack sh*t about.
Then there's the new way of killing us all, the MISSILE.
Not a nightmare anymore, it's REAL.
The authorities are well behind the plot. The murderous fanatics are ahead and plotting.
Re-inforce your butts, that's where it's gonna get you!!!!
You can even unscrew the jumpseat and remove it altogether.
Your plane is still potentially full of loonies you know jack sh*t about.
Then there's the new way of killing us all, the MISSILE.
Not a nightmare anymore, it's REAL.
The authorities are well behind the plot. The murderous fanatics are ahead and plotting.
Re-inforce your butts, that's where it's gonna get you!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Glasgow, U.K.
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Most of the comments here show how 'off - line' this new rule really is!
As someone else has probably said, to be in command an aircraft for one sector, then to be considered a potential security hazard if you want to fly the next sector as a j/s passenger is clearly beyond ludicrous!
The main problem is we now seem to have a generation of rule makers who are unable to think an idea through properly and seem to be limited to schoolboy logic when it comes to having to produce solutions.
As someone else has probably said, to be in command an aircraft for one sector, then to be considered a potential security hazard if you want to fly the next sector as a j/s passenger is clearly beyond ludicrous!
The main problem is we now seem to have a generation of rule makers who are unable to think an idea through properly and seem to be limited to schoolboy logic when it comes to having to produce solutions.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Although said tongue in cheek, I can see the logic in limting access to the flight deck to those who have a NEED to be there - and that would preclude all except operating crew.
So the company has to surrender revenue seats....
Anne
So the company has to surrender revenue seats....
Anne
Before I go any further, I would like to make it plain that I agree entirely with Danny's proposition. I feel that things have gone too far and for no recognisable purpose.
I am however quite fascinated by the brave souls on this thread who intend to invite legitimate members of the the CAA and the DETR to indulge in sex and travel when next they attempt to occupy "their" jumpseats.
I suspect that this is just a load of old bluster given out on an anonymous website by some promising hysterics who really don't think they are ever likely to have to stick their heads above the parapet. If I am wrong then I will happily apologise when they regale us with the tale of how brave they were and when and in what circumstances they actually put the "enemy" to flight.
Now don't get me wrong for I am no great lover of the "Feds" but they also have a job to do and have probably got more "law" on their side than we do and they know it better!
Just be careful out there; if you get too carried away with your own self-importance just consider how much support you are likely to get from your employer. Once you start screwing around with regulatory agencies you could very quickly find yourself on a rather good "infrequent flyer programme"!
I am however quite fascinated by the brave souls on this thread who intend to invite legitimate members of the the CAA and the DETR to indulge in sex and travel when next they attempt to occupy "their" jumpseats.
I suspect that this is just a load of old bluster given out on an anonymous website by some promising hysterics who really don't think they are ever likely to have to stick their heads above the parapet. If I am wrong then I will happily apologise when they regale us with the tale of how brave they were and when and in what circumstances they actually put the "enemy" to flight.
Now don't get me wrong for I am no great lover of the "Feds" but they also have a job to do and have probably got more "law" on their side than we do and they know it better!
Just be careful out there; if you get too carried away with your own self-importance just consider how much support you are likely to get from your employer. Once you start screwing around with regulatory agencies you could very quickly find yourself on a rather good "infrequent flyer programme"!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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Totally rediculous ruling if you ask me.
After 11th Sept only company staff with ID (and preferably in Uniform) were allowed to travel in the J/S, which, as an engineer suits me fine.
Over the last 6 months I have lost count of the times I've been up front on my commutes from London to Scotland. Not only have I found it interesting to see what you guys do for a living, it also helps me a great deal with my own Engineering Licence studies, seeing how and why things work the way they do.
Now, it looks like me and numerous crew that I have met during these travels will have even greater troubles trying to get one of the "golddust" like seats on shuttle flights home on a weekend to see family and loved ones.
To any of the crew that have been kind enough to have me on the f/d thanks.
After 11th Sept only company staff with ID (and preferably in Uniform) were allowed to travel in the J/S, which, as an engineer suits me fine.
Over the last 6 months I have lost count of the times I've been up front on my commutes from London to Scotland. Not only have I found it interesting to see what you guys do for a living, it also helps me a great deal with my own Engineering Licence studies, seeing how and why things work the way they do.
Now, it looks like me and numerous crew that I have met during these travels will have even greater troubles trying to get one of the "golddust" like seats on shuttle flights home on a weekend to see family and loved ones.
To any of the crew that have been kind enough to have me on the f/d thanks.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Danny - so what now?
The poll is great but what are we all going to do about it?
Why are we all wimps (me included) - this whole thing is madness.
We live in a world of supposed accountability - who are the people who make these rules ? What are their names? Why dont they have a comitee of people including Flight Crew and ATCO's etc etc to decide the right thing to do?
Is the USA (who as a country I in the main I love) dictating everything? and as someone earlier said the USA has never allowed cockpit visits and it was they who (sadly) were Hi-jacked!!
All we have to do is say (like the French do on a regular basis)
NO NO NO NO - we wont fly if this rule is enforced. A 1 day no fly threat will clear all of the Wimps who made this rule out. How is a 12 year old with his/her grandfather a threat? Or an elderly lady who has the thrill of a 10 miniute vist to the flight deck on a flight to Orlando a threat. I would rarther take my chances with one of the above than a CAA inspector any day !!!!
Cant these people get a life - or is their life so dull that they have to put this stress onto others in order to have their moment of excitement and power?
Why dont we tell them to get lost - flight safty issues yes but mentally sub-normal people who have no idea of what they are talking about in making these rules - NO.?
So thats me finished then - but it was worth the post !!!!!!!!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Danny,
I support one of the previous replies as to these polls are OK but what are WE doing about it?.
I do the job I do because I love aviation , I love flying and I and love being front line cabin crew.
As cabin crew mayby I should have no great view on this subject....but I do....if you as flight crew can not be able to take your wife,mother,child,boyfriend,girlfriend,lover...oh can I say that!!??... then why should you be able to take anyone with an I.D. for your own airline that you do not know?.
If I were flight crew I would be totally p***ed off that I as a pilot was not allowed to trust my own.
NJR .
I support one of the previous replies as to these polls are OK but what are WE doing about it?.
I do the job I do because I love aviation , I love flying and I and love being front line cabin crew.
As cabin crew mayby I should have no great view on this subject....but I do....if you as flight crew can not be able to take your wife,mother,child,boyfriend,girlfriend,lover...oh can I say that!!??... then why should you be able to take anyone with an I.D. for your own airline that you do not know?.
If I were flight crew I would be totally p***ed off that I as a pilot was not allowed to trust my own.
NJR .
Last edited by nojacketsrequired; 23rd Dec 2002 at 19:40.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Do these idiots really think that the cockpit is the only way to do damage to aircraft and bring them down. Look at Nairobi rescently. People on the ground trying to shoot aircraft down from the ground. I hate to let the powers that be know, but when an idiot is prepared to die for a stupid cause, you can stand on your head and you wont stop him. Next some like minded air brane will propose that the aircraft be flown by remote control, and passengers be bussed to destination, as that way there will be no intervention by humans at all.
The time for paranoia is over. We can not let a few fools in the world dictate policy to the masses who are law abiding, reasonable people.
The time for paranoia is over. We can not let a few fools in the world dictate policy to the masses who are law abiding, reasonable people.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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so what can we do about it ?
Well guys with the pole on this subject running at about 92% of us who think that this is a stupid rule what are we going to do ?..............................nothing i suspect , but if all of us who think that this new regulation is stupid was to write to the people who have imposed this on us and to the MP who reprisents you then something might just change , no
matter how strongly you put your case on these pages it will have little influence on the regulators.
Now perhaps some one who knows a lot more about this internet thing than me can get us some links to the people in power.
matter how strongly you put your case on these pages it will have little influence on the regulators.
Now perhaps some one who knows a lot more about this internet thing than me can get us some links to the people in power.
Join Date: May 2002
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I voted yes! (d0h! )
''What all these rules ignore is that there was already a locked flight-deck door policy in effect in the USA before September 11th.
They are, without consultation or logic, insisting upon a rule that didn't prevent the tragedy''
indeed!
g'day
)''What all these rules ignore is that there was already a locked flight-deck door policy in effect in the USA before September 11th.
They are, without consultation or logic, insisting upon a rule that didn't prevent the tragedy''
indeed!
g'day
Join Date: Jan 2000
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To aircrew, I apoligse. Ive just started to train for my PPL, in fact Ive got just about 12 hours and recently started in the circuit. Do you all remember that stage of your life?
If it wasnt for the wonderful guys mainly in Ryanair, I would have never have started this flying thing. After get JS, Ive been hooked and I love it. Im kicking myself that I didnt do it years ago. It nice to know a 172 inside out, but putting your knowledge into play on board a 737 is quite different.... Ah so this is how the flaps operate here!
I believe in the power of PPRUNE, its time to start a lobby and get the authorities to listen to the flight crew, the people who do a hard, serious job everyday with very little thanks.
If it wasnt for the wonderful guys mainly in Ryanair, I would have never have started this flying thing. After get JS, Ive been hooked and I love it. Im kicking myself that I didnt do it years ago. It nice to know a 172 inside out, but putting your knowledge into play on board a 737 is quite different.... Ah so this is how the flaps operate here!
I believe in the power of PPRUNE, its time to start a lobby and get the authorities to listen to the flight crew, the people who do a hard, serious job everyday with very little thanks.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Dear Danny,
Merry Christmas first and formost!
I am a firm believer in the forum because it is read by such a wide cross section of the aviation community. To that end I would ask any airline management, BALPA and CAA representitives what they think of the advantages/disadvantages of such unilateral rulings are. One can always introduce 'catchall' legislation without looking at all the negative effects such decisions can have on aviation as a whole. Did the CAA enter into any dialog with operators or look at the ramifications of such rulings?
It would, I believe, be of great benifit to this forum to have the opinions of such bodies to be displayed in this forum and perhaps you Danny might make an approach to them to do so, for the benifit of all.
Fly safe and and have a good new year!
Micky
Merry Christmas first and formost!
I am a firm believer in the forum because it is read by such a wide cross section of the aviation community. To that end I would ask any airline management, BALPA and CAA representitives what they think of the advantages/disadvantages of such unilateral rulings are. One can always introduce 'catchall' legislation without looking at all the negative effects such decisions can have on aviation as a whole. Did the CAA enter into any dialog with operators or look at the ramifications of such rulings?
It would, I believe, be of great benifit to this forum to have the opinions of such bodies to be displayed in this forum and perhaps you Danny might make an approach to them to do so, for the benifit of all.
Fly safe and and have a good new year!
Micky
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Maybe a few emails to [email protected] might get some interesting responses…..
Other contact details at:
http://www.aviation.dft.gov.uk/transec/06.htm
Other contact details at:
http://www.aviation.dft.gov.uk/transec/06.htm