Incident at BHX - 29 Oct 02
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BBC WM says it was taking of "for Scotland".
CFMU gives delays "Due accident"
Hope all are OK
Now saying that the 747(!) has got a wheel stuck in the mud. Probably just an embarrasing non-event.
CFMU gives delays "Due accident"
Hope all are OK
Now saying that the 747(!) has got a wheel stuck in the mud. Probably just an embarrasing non-event.
Last edited by Flap40; 29th Oct 2002 at 17:27.
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The aircraft in question went off the end of R15 at E and dug about a 5m long furrow in the mud. This part of the runway is notoriously slippery when wet, a fact well known to regular BHX visitors and ATC, so it's no surprise somebody has come a cropper, it was only a matter of time. The aircraft was eventually towed out of the mire by its main gear about 90 minutes later.
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Everybody seems to be slagging off the airfield for its shortcomings. Yes it is short but everyday larger aircraft than 767s land there quite safely without slithering off into the mud.
So, the options are that: the aircraft had a brake or NWS failure, the runway was unusually slippery on that day and/or the aircraft vacating the runway was going too fast for the conditions. What about a note on the Chart or on the ATIS, 'Runway gets slippery when wet! Taxi slower!'. Yep I know, it sounds facetious doesn't it. Was there any pressure from ATC to expedite vacating the runway or did the crew take it into their own hands?
As far as upgrading the runway, who should pay? The operators? I guarantee you that there won't be too many airline CFOs looking to foot the bill for a runway upgrade when most flights don't seem to have a snag. If they did, we would then have to move onto the runways around the rest of the UK, the Med, in Africa and onto the sub-continent. All of a sudden BHX's runway is starting to look like it is paved with gold compared to some of the other options out there. Lets get it into perspective!
Ghost
So, the options are that: the aircraft had a brake or NWS failure, the runway was unusually slippery on that day and/or the aircraft vacating the runway was going too fast for the conditions. What about a note on the Chart or on the ATIS, 'Runway gets slippery when wet! Taxi slower!'. Yep I know, it sounds facetious doesn't it. Was there any pressure from ATC to expedite vacating the runway or did the crew take it into their own hands?
As far as upgrading the runway, who should pay? The operators? I guarantee you that there won't be too many airline CFOs looking to foot the bill for a runway upgrade when most flights don't seem to have a snag. If they did, we would then have to move onto the runways around the rest of the UK, the Med, in Africa and onto the sub-continent. All of a sudden BHX's runway is starting to look like it is paved with gold compared to some of the other options out there. Lets get it into perspective!
Ghost
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The BHX ATIS rarely reports 'slippery when wet', but being asked to 'expedite vacating', even when the runway is wet, is a common occurence when R15 is in use. Ghost also overlooks the possibility that an empty 767 simply did not have the necessary purchase on the nosewheel to take the corner at normal speeds. I think BHX management should pay for improvements, not just to the runway ends but also to the disintegrating taxiways, particularly around the R24/D/E junction, which all users (pilots and ATC) acknowledge are in an apalling state. I can't think of an major European airport in such bad condition apart from Frankfurt, but their runways are twice as long.
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The comments by BIK and others about BHX are spot on, the airport should have spent money on improving the paved surfaces years ago. Unfortunately, like "Railtrack" they appear to be more keen on spending money upgrading the retail side of the terminal.
I landed on RW15 about 10 minutes before the 767 incident, the runway was wet, the area around the turn off was as usual slippery and there was once again pressure to vacate as we had one aircraft lined up ready to roll and another at 2-3 miles. Having also flown the 767 I can appreciate how easy it would be if light for the nosewheel to bounce and skip over that last 100m of rough concrete.
In mitigation to all concerned the airport response and that of the crew was very good. The emergency vehicles were on the scene promptly, communication was effective and to drag a 767 back onto the runway as quickly as they did was impressive. No clue as to why it occured so please don't hang the flight crew just yet I am sure the management will be only too keen to jump on the bandwaggon shortly.
Regards BP
I landed on RW15 about 10 minutes before the 767 incident, the runway was wet, the area around the turn off was as usual slippery and there was once again pressure to vacate as we had one aircraft lined up ready to roll and another at 2-3 miles. Having also flown the 767 I can appreciate how easy it would be if light for the nosewheel to bounce and skip over that last 100m of rough concrete.
In mitigation to all concerned the airport response and that of the crew was very good. The emergency vehicles were on the scene promptly, communication was effective and to drag a 767 back onto the runway as quickly as they did was impressive. No clue as to why it occured so please don't hang the flight crew just yet I am sure the management will be only too keen to jump on the bandwaggon shortly.
Regards BP
problem comes when a message "runway slippery when wet" is indicated that slippery inferes a MU reading of .05 ( someone correct me if I'm wrong!) therefore if the runway is wet do you plan using slippery runway data? no of course not because it is very likely that the braking action is considerably better than that, so a careful wording should be used because for some guy's this kind of message would stop inbound operations. Doesn't take qway from the fact that more info should be posted on the ATIS though.
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Hmm, Frankfurt runways "dreadful", suspect not as bad as, say Cairo.
Have departed on 18 in FRA on many occasions, never noticed it being particularly rough....maybe it's a stifflegged Airboos thing
Have departed on 18 in FRA on many occasions, never noticed it being particularly rough....maybe it's a stifflegged Airboos thing
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I understand there's a plan to build that RET (or a "semi-RET") at BHX a year from now. At least there are proposals to close the airfield 2200-0600LT for a significant chunk of the W03 season to allow this work to go on. (Meanwhile it will be closing 2200-0600LT for nine nights this November for runway resurfacing work - no, I don't know which bit is being resurfaced.)
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Heavy rain, poorly maintained runway surface; my money is on low speed aquaplaning as the likely problem. The southern end of the runway is a patchwork of broken and repaired concrete. I presume that somebody did some braking coefficient checks after the incident; but then possibly not. Why does it take an incident like this to get something done?
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I agree with BP and others who have criticised the runway.
It's unbelievably slippery - like ice at times . If you are not a local - you would not be aware.
BKB made a good point about the ATCO's ... they are very professional - but are put under ridiculous pressure to increase movements.
Safety suffers...Money first ... Makes me cross!
It's unbelievably slippery - like ice at times . If you are not a local - you would not be aware.
BKB made a good point about the ATCO's ... they are very professional - but are put under ridiculous pressure to increase movements.
Safety suffers...Money first ... Makes me cross!
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Have landed several times (in the rain) at BHX with TriStar equipment, and yes, it is indeed very slippery, expecially at the southern end.
For the younger guys (especially younger Commanders) listen, and listen good---
Do NOT EVER allow ATC to rush you exiting the active runway, no matter what.
The company fleet Captain will only look at you and say....there is the door, go work for someone else, union or no union.
And....good luck finding another position. Accidents/incidents on you record knocks your career in the toilet.
For the younger guys (especially younger Commanders) listen, and listen good---
Do NOT EVER allow ATC to rush you exiting the active runway, no matter what.
The company fleet Captain will only look at you and say....there is the door, go work for someone else, union or no union.
And....good luck finding another position. Accidents/incidents on you record knocks your career in the toilet.