UAL unauthorized MLB cockpit visitor...
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Is it too extreme to say that we the fare-paying passenger are entitled to our aircraft being operated 100% within the rules, by professional crews, at all times?
In my thousand plus flights, I've suffered being on an MD83 operating for BAW flown LHR-TLS where the cockpit door was open throughout, and the FO opened a broadsheet French newspaper at TOC and only closed it at TOD. That's 45 mins in very busy Western France airspace where he could see none of his instrumentation at all. Also a Spanish DC9-10 flight where at one point both crew were outside the cockpit in the front galley getting coffees and chatting up the hostess, whilst the cockpit was empty and a (very attractive female) passenger was standing in the open doorway. Flying our aircraft professionally did not at that moment seem to be the primary focus of the Captain or FO !
In my thousand plus flights, I've suffered being on an MD83 operating for BAW flown LHR-TLS where the cockpit door was open throughout, and the FO opened a broadsheet French newspaper at TOC and only closed it at TOD. That's 45 mins in very busy Western France airspace where he could see none of his instrumentation at all. Also a Spanish DC9-10 flight where at one point both crew were outside the cockpit in the front galley getting coffees and chatting up the hostess, whilst the cockpit was empty and a (very attractive female) passenger was standing in the open doorway. Flying our aircraft professionally did not at that moment seem to be the primary focus of the Captain or FO !
Is it too extreme to say that we the fare-paying passenger are entitled to our aircraft being operated 100% within the rules, by professional crews, at all times?
In my thousand plus flights, I've suffered being on an MD83 operating for BAW flown LHR-TLS where the cockpit door was open throughout, and the FO opened a broadsheet French newspaper at TOC and only closed it at TOD. That's 45 mins in very busy Western France airspace where he could see none of his instrumentation at all. Also a Spanish DC9-10 flight where at one point both crew were outside the cockpit in the front galley getting coffees and chatting up the hostess, whilst the cockpit was empty and a (very attractive female) passenger was standing in the open doorway. Flying our aircraft professionally did not at that moment seem to be the primary focus of the Captain or FO !
In my thousand plus flights, I've suffered being on an MD83 operating for BAW flown LHR-TLS where the cockpit door was open throughout, and the FO opened a broadsheet French newspaper at TOC and only closed it at TOD. That's 45 mins in very busy Western France airspace where he could see none of his instrumentation at all. Also a Spanish DC9-10 flight where at one point both crew were outside the cockpit in the front galley getting coffees and chatting up the hostess, whilst the cockpit was empty and a (very attractive female) passenger was standing in the open doorway. Flying our aircraft professionally did not at that moment seem to be the primary focus of the Captain or FO !
The second incident you describe is extreme and is sheer lunacy by the crew.
Although an aviation professional at the time, I was not a pilot, but I too spent time in the RHS or LHS seat during cruise on quite a few occasions. I also witnessed it on many more occasions. It wasn't unusual and it didn't shock people at the time. Still goes on a lot today as mentioned by CVividasku. It only makes the headlines if seen in certain countries.
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Better not mention that ‘rumour’ of letting the captain’s private pilot buddy hand fly the jet in cruise for a bit. It is ok if it is a freighter isn’t it?
Then there was the captain on the turboprop who got suspended for letting the cargo guy land the plane(the cargo guy was in training to fly the aircraft and had completed the ground school). It was a combi and the flight attendant complained after the ‘pilot in training’ mentioned it.
The good old days working for a colourful company.
Then there was the captain on the turboprop who got suspended for letting the cargo guy land the plane(the cargo guy was in training to fly the aircraft and had completed the ground school). It was a combi and the flight attendant complained after the ‘pilot in training’ mentioned it.
The good old days working for a colourful company.
It was a chartered flight, so they were all part of the same group, from what I'm reading elsewhere.
I was more talking about the visiting part. Seating in the pilot's seat is indeed one step further. Flying the plane being the next step (and a big no-no for me)
Even sitting in the pilot's seat does not shock me too much. Doesn't deserve to be fired at least.
As long as the passenger is not ill-intentioned and the other pilot is competent, there won't be any problem.
If the passenger was ill-intentioned, even having him in the flight deck would be dangerous. If they let him enter, they probably had good reasons to believe he wasn't.
You can always talk about the very remotely likely case where the passenger interfered with the safe conduct of the flight. Still, 99.99..% of these visits happen with no one batting an eye.
If we have to live under so stringent and strictly applied rules, forever, then the terrorists have won.
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Takes a special kinda denze to do permit this.
Crew now famous for all the wring reasons and the guys junior to the Capt may all mov up one on the seniority llist
Crew now famous for all the wring reasons and the guys junior to the Capt may all mov up one on the seniority llist
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I know this is a rumour network, with allegedly a whole lot of non-professionals acting out their armchair piloting skills in abundum, but give me a f-ing break!
CVividasku, I truly hope you are not a professional aviator with your apparently flawed attitude towards both flight safety, as well as established rules and regs,.
So what if this particular flight was not a scheduled pax ops, but "only" a chartered one? Does it not share airspace with all other kind of ops? Could a major malfunction not happen all of a sudden on a charter flight, needing the immediate attention of a trained crew, seated at their station?
What kind of message does this send to the traveling public, of which many have some sort of apprehension towards strapping themselves into a thin tube of metal high up in the air? Is this sort of behaviour promoting our pilot community in the eyes of the world?
I have a hard time understanding the thought process of the so called Commander of this UA flight, what the f##k was she thinking? This particular crew will get sacked, for sure, and will have a lot of time contemplating their actions.
Simply unbelievable...
I'm not condoning the seating of a passenger on a pilot's seat. I'm just asking that you all take a step back and reflect about the rules that you have in place.
The US and the UK have the most stringent rules for cockpit access in the world. That's a fact. It means that all other countries are less stringent. It's your right to decide so but do not mount your high horses if someone suggets things could be done differently.
Then, having a passenger seat in the pilot's seat is two separate issues :
First, having a person outside the crew in the cockpit. Them being on the jumpseat or in the pilot's seat is a similar matter : if they're not ill-intentioned, it will not change anything to the flight conduct. If they're ill-intentioned, they're going to make a huge mess wherever they're seated.
Second, having only one qualified crew member seated. Is that acceptable ? The US pilots go to the toilets during flight too, don't they ? So the airplane should be fliable with only one pilot at the controls in cruise, momentarily.
The only "detail" is if the passenger has a negative, unintentional reaction when at the controls. That's why it's not possible to condone the passenger on the pilot's seat, but it's still a very remote possibility.
After that, of course, rules are rules. We have rules in our country that US and UK nationals would find absurd, and we still respect them.
It's important not to overreact to very rare occurrences.. Did Germany ban F/Os after an F/O crashed into a mountain ?
Do we carry parachutes for all passengers because on some very rare occurrences it could save everyone's lives ?
The US and the UK have the most stringent rules for cockpit access in the world. That's a fact. It means that all other countries are less stringent. It's your right to decide so but do not mount your high horses if someone suggets things could be done differently.
Then, having a passenger seat in the pilot's seat is two separate issues :
First, having a person outside the crew in the cockpit. Them being on the jumpseat or in the pilot's seat is a similar matter : if they're not ill-intentioned, it will not change anything to the flight conduct. If they're ill-intentioned, they're going to make a huge mess wherever they're seated.
Second, having only one qualified crew member seated. Is that acceptable ? The US pilots go to the toilets during flight too, don't they ? So the airplane should be fliable with only one pilot at the controls in cruise, momentarily.
The only "detail" is if the passenger has a negative, unintentional reaction when at the controls. That's why it's not possible to condone the passenger on the pilot's seat, but it's still a very remote possibility.
After that, of course, rules are rules. We have rules in our country that US and UK nationals would find absurd, and we still respect them.
It's important not to overreact to very rare occurrences.. Did Germany ban F/Os after an F/O crashed into a mountain ?
Do we carry parachutes for all passengers because on some very rare occurrences it could save everyone's lives ?
I am also reminded of when I was flying C Class (paid for privately by me) on a major European carrier (post 911), westbound over the Atlantic, and my neighbour was on a freebee (upgraded to Business) and spent some considerable time on the FD. Her boyfriend was the F/O. Did it bother me? Did I feel unsafe? Did I feel the need to report this? No, I didn't. I considered it quite normal. Perk of the job and all that. What really shook me in all my life of flying was an F/O deliberately flying his aeroplane into a mountain! There have been other "alleged" well documented cases of pilot suicides taking all their passengers with them. And you want to make a fuss about a passenger seated in one of the pilot seats during the cruise? Give me a break!
I suspect many of us (if not most) are old enough to remember the flight deck entry rules prior to 9/11. For those who don't remember, it was pretty common - especially on longer flights - for passengers to be allowed to visit the flight deck briefly, even allowed to talk to the pilots (sitting in a pilot's seat is a whole different matter). I recall an Air Canada flight from Montreal to Vancouver back around 1990 - I'd gotten bumped up to First Class (they wanted my coach seat so a family could sit together). After a real nice First Class meal, I noticed a young child being escorted into the flight deck by one of the flight attendants. The aircraft was an A320 - still pretty new and novel on the time - and I wanted a chance to check out the flight deck so I asked a flight attendant and she promptly escorted me to the Flight Deck where I introduced myself as a Boeing Propulsion engineer and spent several minutes discussing with the crew their A320 likes and dislikes. Before 9/11, this sort of thing during a long cruise was common.
Post 9/11 everything changed - however I can see how a charter flight for a MLB team might be treated differently than a standard passenger flight.
However letting a 'guest' sit in one of the pilots' seats is way different...
Post 9/11 everything changed - however I can see how a charter flight for a MLB team might be treated differently than a standard passenger flight.
However letting a 'guest' sit in one of the pilots' seats is way different...
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Ah, how well I remember the days when I asked if I could visit the Flight Deck, Heathrow to Toronto, 747-200 pre 9/11 Was called up half an hour before we were due in, was strapped into the jumpseat behind the Captain, given an approach chart and a pair of head phones. {I was a mere PPL]. Still there 20 mins after landing. First time I ever flew in a jet airliner [Trident two], asked it I could visit, same thing, strapped in etc., there 20 mins later. Concorde but not for the landing, 757 landing into Fuertaventura Umpteen A.320 holiday visits. If you didn't ask, you didn't get. Great days, great memories.!!
The business has sure changed with respect to cockpit visits, was not unown on some airlines for the cockpit crew to scan the manifest and invite certain pax to make a visit, and you didn't necessarily have to be a noted personality.
Grew up knowing the crew members of a private operation, they used to visit for dinner when in town and to give me a ride when possible. In the cruise in a F-27 this seventeen year old was given the left seat and allowed to make a couple of turns. Crew were all captains, the captain captain on this flight, Reg Bagwell, cut his teeth flying airlines pre WWII, notably had a gear up landing in the spinafex due engine failure in a Lockheed 10, crew and pax spent a month in the bush while the aircraft was repaired, an airstrip built and aircraft flown out. Book "Escape From the Rising Sun" by Allen Metherell gives details. The particular aircraft now sits in the US Navy Pensacola Museum dressed up in Navy garb.
And crews these days reckon they have it hard.
Better not mention that ‘rumour’ of letting the captain’s private pilot buddy hand fly the jet in cruise for a bit. It is ok if it is a freighter isn’t it
And crews these days reckon they have it hard.
Look, these rules are written in blood. Any pilot who disregards them, unless there's a flipping good reason to, is exhibiting one of several known attitudes that are hazardous to flight safety: a problem with authority. So whilst this incident might well have been perfectly safe, it potentially indicates a problem with the PIC's suitability to do his job. We don't know all the facts: it maybe that there was a good reason for this to happen, but it feels unlikely to me.
Look, these rules are written in blood. Any pilot who disregards them, unless there's a flipping good reason to, is exhibiting one of several known attitudes that are hazardous to flight safety: a problem with authority. So whilst this incident might well have been perfectly safe, it potentially indicates a problem with the PIC's suitability to do his job. We don't know all the facts: it maybe that there was a good reason for this to happen, but it feels unlikely to me.
They're written in fear and changing society, evolving towards less and less acceptation of the slightest risk, and more and more towards juridicization (which is : unduly giving matters a legal dimension).
Why am I writing that ?
9/11 was, of course, not the first plane hijack. Before that, plane hijacks were commonplace. Not all of them lead to death, but it happened many times that a hijack was followed by death.
Hijacks had been happening for decades. There were several of them each year around the globe. There were also bombings and other types of attacks.
9/11 was the hijack with, by far, the most terrible consequences, but the concept wasn't new. The reaction was overly prudent.
The concept wasn't new. For example in 1994, some Algerian terrorists hijacked a plane and wanted to crash it somewhere in Paris. 7 years before 9/11. Some people died in this event, passengers and terrorists. They didn't succeed, but only because it was anticipated and the authorities and crew didn't let them. (They would have destroyed the plane in flight if needed)
What changed in between ? Just more fear. Which is exactly what terrorists want us to feel. By taking irrationnal measures we are letting them win.
Were the terrorists that day known by the flight crew ? In no way.
But nowadays in the UK/US, apparently, you can't fly in the flight deck with your own wife or kid. Except if they're flying personnel from the same airline you work at.
Is it a fair rule to ban the captain's wife to fly in the cockpit ? Do you really think the captain's wife would crash the plane ? Many countries allow the pilot's friends and families to travel in the flight deck. We're still yet to hear any story of that kind from these places.
" evolving towards less and less acceptation of the slightest risk,"
isn't that what we all want - a flight without the slightest risk?
If you want risks go mountain climbing or rally driving in your own time - not with 250 pax depending on you
isn't that what we all want - a flight without the slightest risk?
If you want risks go mountain climbing or rally driving in your own time - not with 250 pax depending on you
Life is a constant risk. Always has been and always will be. Will denying family, friends and aviation professionals visiting the FD make flying infinitely safer? Absolutely not. You are more likely to die in an aircraft accident because of pilot error!.