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Abort Phraseology

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Abort Phraseology

Old 22nd Nov 2023, 18:09
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PukinDog another American who cannot understand the basic terminology of what I typed. I used satire to expose the use of “roll the trucks” in FAAland. Such terminology would be a) laughed at in any other jurisdiction b) be constructively critiqued in a formal debrief c) has sadly led to the loss of lives due to delayed FFS response directly due to miscommunication inside the CONUS.

But yes; ultimately - “America - Phuck Yeah!”

And yeah; most other professionals do regard US ATC RTF as embarrassingly bad. Please don’t take my word for it; ask some other pilots you might have respect for. You may in fact learn something of use.

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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 18:21
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
well look at the title of this thread to start with , and the content of the question :

Recently , i.e. in 2023, so it took 45 years or so for this US carrier to comply with the Correct ICAO Phraseology.

On "Rolls the Trucks" , , yes 640 $ at least , I forgot one the most annoying to us Europeans is the " climbing and maintaining " as if you were otherwise going the do roller coaster up and own after reaching your cleared FL , keep up the list !
I understood his question to mean what others' Company SOP cockpit callouts are to command an RTO, rather than what would be transmitted to ATC ("Stopping"....as long as you don't tell us to do it after V1, sorry).

"Climbing and maintaining"...yes, .that's absolutely List-worthy. Very annoying, especially since it reminds me of how dumb I feel anytime I try to understand quantum physics. ($1900).
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 20:01
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
PukinDog another American who cannot understand the basic terminology of what I typed. I used satire to expose the use of “roll the trucks” in FAAland. Such terminology would be a) laughed at in any other jurisdiction b) be constructively critiqued in a formal debrief c) has sadly led to the loss of lives due to delayed FFS response directly due to miscommunication inside the CONUS.

But yes; ultimately - “America - Phuck Yeah!”

And yeah; most other professionals do regard US ATC RTF as embarrassingly bad. Please don’t take my word for it; ask some other pilots you might have respect for. You may in fact learn something of use.
I respect plenty of other pilots for a lot of things, but on this subject I'll trust my own assessment from experience gained over a 20 year stretch where perhaps 15% was spent flying inside the CONUS. Last time I counted for someone who asked, in and out of appx 90 different countries on every continent that isn't permanently covered with an ice sheet, and couldn't begin to tell you how many others were merely overflown so got a taste of their ATC but never got to sample the local food.

As an IOE Instructor for the outfit it was my job to stress that proper ICAO-script was spoken and spoken clearly. And although you think Americans are the only guilty parties for your ragging, I'll tell you that ICAO-correct words spoken in a guttural Scottish brogue or rapid-fire, clippy Queenslander-ese are just as unintelligible to the guy on listening watch down in Kigali who won't even bother to ask who's calling when he doesn't hear perhaps the only words he knows in English exactly as he learned them. It's all gibberish to him, and for all I know you're one of those he'd simply ignore, and could "uze sum learnin' ".

Also, just a constructive, informal debrief on your attempt at satire: Fair to Poor, sadly. An example of Good to Excellent: Dr. Strangelove.

Last edited by PukinDog; 22nd Nov 2023 at 20:38.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 22:03
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Call to abort?

"Stop, stop, stop."

Six different airlines, four different types. The same.

Some said either pilot calls it. Some said the F/O brings the problem to the Captain's attention, who then calls it. I didn't care, if I heard "Stop, stop, stop" I would stop (abort!) and find out why in the safety of 'afterwards'.

And being said three times removed any confusion with anything else.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 22:47
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It's just come to mind. The cringe factor has increased over the 53 years since it was uttered.

"To the man in the tower from the man in the ship. Give us the word and I'll giver her the whip."

Yes, really. One of jet jockey's more colourful characters, who later became part of the CAA's flight inspectorate.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 23:19
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Like I said; you didn’t understand my comment PukinDog

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 00:41
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Yes, the most striking for me was, "we'regoin'intheHudson." Full marks for everything else, but the ATC guy did not seem to comprehend what was perhaps one of aviation's most important communications since the Wright brothers.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 08:49
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About phraseology

Junkflyer; Blimey. See what you have started ? Good larf though and most posts worthy of the "What put a smile on your face" thread over on JB, I think.

Actually, after my "Abahstrip", in the coffee shop at Heston, Skip went on and asked what the hell is a "Barstrip"? Quite a few replies from the crew and a few more from those just listening in. Back in the sim, after the abort/abandon,reject, and an immaculate drill, he calmly told me to tell ATC '; minor engine problem, request return to Dispersal '. I n the coffeeshop I was able to defend with "yes, well, what the hell is 'dispersal'-? Some kinda washing powder I think.

Oh & to whoever asked, my last outfit was very clear. Handling pilot said ;" Whoever calls' stop'...........I will"...... etc.

And..........cripes (!) big fan of American R?T. Laid back, clear, precise, no messing and in really busy places like NY, no need to respond. Loved it .

I was criticised on my last Line Check, though, for appalling R/T. When told to "continue with" (etc) ,I never read back freq & callsign ( ended normal two/way conversation but, as it happened, the trip was a mouthful of something like ' company ID, four numbers and a letter ! I just kept saying "Cheers, mate, wilco"... Line Checker not happy.. I think NY Centre were always happy with "See ya BUddy".
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 08:58
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Gordomac
big fan of American R?T. Laid back, clear, precise, no messing and in really busy places like NY, no need to respond. Loved it .
I am constantly amazed when I read comments like this. This is one of the fun side of PPRuNe , but OK fortunately not everybody here is what he/she claims to be..
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 09:23
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
It's just come to mind. The cringe factor has increased over the 53 years since it was uttered.

"To the man in the tower from the man in the ship. Give us the word and I'll giver her the whip."

Yes, really. One of jet jockey's more colourful characters, who later became part of the CAA's flight inspectorate.
As a test to see if it's shelf life has indeed passed one could use it on a busy day at O'Hare in response to Tower's "Line up and wait behind the departing United, traffic on a 3 mile final, keep 'em spooled Break United cleared for takeoff".

It's the only way to be sure.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 09:44
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Inclusive Naming Initiative?

Originally Posted by Junkflyer
I have a question for EU or other airline pilots.
The US carrier I work for recently changed the captain's call to "Stop" for a rejected take off.
It had been "Abort" for as long as I recall and was the same at a previous outfit except for a brief time when "Reject" was used.
What is word do you use?
Possibly, the organisation in question has been influenced by the Inclusive Naming Initiative, which describes itself: "The Inclusive Naming Initiative’s mission is to promote and facilitate replacing harmful and exclusionary language in information technology". That group has the use of 'Abort' as a term which should be replaced immediately: Inclusive Naming: Word List: Tier 1: Term: abort.

There was much comment on this organisation and its initiative when it was reported upon in The Register: The Register: Inclusive Naming Initiative limps towards release of dangerous digital dictionary

I'm not saying this is the reason, merely floating it as a possibility. It is entirely possible that other people have independently come to a conclusion that the use of 'abort' in the context of early termination of pregnancy makes its use in other fields problematic. Or there could be other, entirely unrelated reasons.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 12:15
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As an FO and NHP many years ago I was involved in an RTO at an exotic Greek location in the middle of the night. Shortly before V1 a large plastic sack was carried by the wind across the runway and was ingested by the RH engine on this A320. I recall the skipper (HP) saying "I think we are going to miss it". That was the last thing I heard before a loud explosion and the world lit up and my nose was pressed against the glareshield. We stopped on the centreline from 140kts+.... The brakes were applied and the skipper selected forward idle. I ran the FIRE ENG 2 checklist from the ECAM and everything remained lit up as the 30 seconds counted down. The skipper had the PA in hand as I put the second shot it. After an agonising few seconds the fire lights went out and everybody started breathing again. The fire trucks had been scrambled without input from us and long story short.... we taxied back to the terminal on the other engine. There were subsequently lots of interviews and an AAIB investigation.

Many months later were were called in for a debrief from the AAIB. The debrief was very thorough and (surprisingly) the RTO had gone totally according to SOP, with one tiny exception.... At no stage did anyone call 'STOP'. There was a lot of F*** Sh!t F*** Sh!t but no order to reject. I guess it just goes to show that as long as everybody knows what they are doing.... it will probably turn out OK.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 15:49
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As far as I was concerned, back in the day, if anyone called STOP (and we were below V1) then I would. Didn't matter if it was the RHS or the pilot positioning on the j/s - or even the hostie (if he/she screamed loudly enough!). And I always briefed that - it's called being a team. Worse that would happen would be a bit of embarrassment or having to wait for brakes to cool - or even having to refuel. None of this nonsense about RHS can't say that above 80kts - it is exactly then, when you are above that speed, that things can become critical and it is even more important to react without delay. That was why Captains were Commanders - to take the decision(s) and, if necessary, take the crap that sometimes came with doing that.
Incidentally for me it has always been "STOP STOP STOP" and I firmly believe that this was and is the best way to initiate an abort. Even my wife will stop the car - or whatever she is doing - when I yell that phrase out!! (Unfortunately a taxi driver in GLA did not and, as a result, we all ended up in hospital).
In my opinion it all went to pot when Big Airways changed the capital C to a small c in their manuals - the accountants then got to be Accountants.........

Last edited by Gizm0; 23rd Nov 2023 at 16:04. Reason: Spelling
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 16:00
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans
Call to abort?

"Stop, stop, stop."

Six different airlines, four different types. The same.

Some said either pilot calls it. Some said the F/O brings the problem to the Captain's attention, who then calls it. I didn't care, if I heard "Stop, stop, stop" I would stop (abort!) and find out why in the safety of 'afterwards'.

And being said three times removed any confusion with anything else.
Originally Posted by Gizm0
As far as I was concerned, back in the day, if anyone called STOP (and we were below V1) then I would. Didn't matter if it was the RHS or the pilot positioning on the j/s - or even the hostie (if he/she screamed loudly enough!). And I always briefed that - it's called being a team. Worse that would happen would be a bit of embarrassment or having to wait for brakes to cool - or even having to refuel. None of this nonsense about RHS can't say that above 80kts - it is exactly then when you are above that speed that things can become critical and it is even more important to react without delay. That was why Captains were Captains - to take the decision(s) and, if necessary, take the crap that sometimes came with doing that.
Incidentally for me it has always been "STOP STOP STOP" and I firmly believe that this was and is the best way to initiate an abort. Even my wife will stop the car - or whatever she is doing - when I yell that phrase out!! (Unfortunately a taxi driver in GLA did not and, as a result, we all ended up in hospital).
In my opinion it all went to pot when Big Airways changed the capital C to a small c in their manuals - the accountants then got to be Accountants.........
I fully agree with you!

One error in my Post, that you had correctly in your Post, is that those three repeated words should all be in CAPITALS with no punctuation!!
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 17:11
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Another word with ambiguous meaning is 'right'. Could cause embarrassment (or worse) in a twin requiring an engine shutdown:

'Make sure we shut down the right engine.'

Reference to 'Engine 1' or 'Engine 2' would be safer (as the fire handles were labelled on the classic B737s).
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 17:35
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Originally Posted by Discorde
Another word with ambiguous meaning is 'right'. Could cause embarrassment (or worse) in a twin requiring an engine shutdown:

'Make sure we shut down the right engine.'

Reference to 'Engine 1' or 'Engine 2' would be safer (as the fire handles were labelled on the classic B737s).
I don't believe that an experienced crew would use that word under those circs. It would be "the correct engine" or "Engine #2". All this is just a matter of experience - and training!
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 21:07
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I belie it's in "Fate is the Hunter" where the comment to a glum-looking F.O. is "cheer up", followed by a horrible sound of tearing metal.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 03:56
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Originally Posted by Magplug
As an FO and NHP many years ago I was involved in an RTO at an exotic Greek location in the middle of the night. Shortly before V1 a large plastic sack was carried by the wind across the runway and was ingested by the RH engine on this A320. I recall the skipper (HP) saying "I think we are going to miss it". That was the last thing I heard before a loud explosion and the world lit up and my nose was pressed against the glareshield. We stopped on the centreline from 140kts+.... The brakes were applied and the skipper selected forward idle. I ran the FIRE ENG 2 checklist from the ECAM and everything remained lit up as the 30 seconds counted down. The skipper had the PA in hand as I put the second shot it. After an agonising few seconds the fire lights went out and everybody started breathing again. The fire trucks had been scrambled without input from us and long story short.... we taxied back to the terminal on the other engine. There were subsequently lots of interviews and an AAIB investigation.

Many months later were were called in for a debrief from the AAIB. The debrief was very thorough and (surprisingly) the RTO had gone totally according to SOP, with one tiny exception.... At no stage did anyone call 'STOP'. There was a lot of F*** Sh!t F*** Sh!t but no order to reject. I guess it just goes to show that as long as everybody knows what they are doing.... it will probably turn out OK.
Great story And perhaps you've uncovered what might be the best term to use to command an RTO. A reflexive, naturally-occurring "F***S***!!" x 3 may be the quickest, most succinct trigger word of all.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 09:17
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I remember doing a CRM course about 1990 and there was an AAIB inspector on it as well. He said that the most common last word on a CVR before impact was SH*T, in whatever language the crew were using.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 09:21
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"Stop" as the levers are slammed back leaves no doubt.
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