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Abort Phraseology

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Abort Phraseology

Old 21st Nov 2023, 23:11
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Abort Phraseology

I have a question for EU or other airline pilots.
The US carrier I work for recently changed the captain's call to "Stop" for a rejected take off.
It had been "Abort" for as long as I recall and was the same at a previous outfit except for a brief time when "Reject" was used.
What is word do you use?
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Old 21st Nov 2023, 23:33
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It’s been “Stop” at my airline since I started there.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 01:17
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When did overshooting become going around? I just don't like a statement that could be a command. Go around! We're going around.

We didn't overshoot in the old days, we just ran out of grass and really didn't need to tell anybody because because bouncing over huge sods and spinning around trees was obvious.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 01:30
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Been Stop here for years. Of course, if the captain's doing it, then it should be "Stopping". (Loose Rivets )

IMO, Stop sounds clearer than Abort or Reject.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 05:49
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Have used all 3.

The case for "Abort" or "Reject" is that the word "Stop" is ubiquitous and frequently spoken at the beginning of comments or sentences, and thus more likely to be used reflexively or unintentionally at the wrong moment. On the other hand, "Abort" or "Reject", are far less common, aren't reflexive expressions, and specifically linked to the act of stopping the aircraft during the takeoff roll, providing their own context and thus self-explanatory. Example:

"We had to stop and return to the gate" vs. "We had to abort/reject and return to the gate". In the latter, you know they were on the runway, began the takeoff roll, but had to stop. The former requires more context to know that they rejected/aborted.

I'm supposing this, but perhaps using a specific word that provides its own context harkens back to when there was a lot more talking on a flight deck during takeoff rolls, with a lot of power managing, and cowl flap setting etc with a flight engineer between the seats getting into the act. Perhaps there were many things they needed to do or stop doing so "stop" was more ambiguous and could be misinterpreted.

Nowadays, it probably doesn't make much difference and as long is everything is initiated within the allowance made for reaction time built into the performance numbers it doesn't matter. Personally, I prefer "Reject" or "Abort" because like "Eject" it's so specific nobody needs to hear it the 2nd or 3rd times before reacting.

After so many years of instinctively calling "abort" you may experience some frustration during training at the pointless change of script. I always chalked it up to some desk-jock Manager in Flight Ops trying to prove he can "make a difference" by changing the SOPs...again. Whatever the reason, it's certain it's not because someone didn't understand the word "Abort" or "Reject".

In addition to initially stumbling over the new script while busy applying the brakes, maintaining the centreline, deploying the reversers etc, if you're the guy on the receiving end, you'll have to react upon hearing "Stop" instead automatically tuning-out and ignoring the word as you've trained yourself to do while driving when heard from the wife sitting next to you commenting on your speeding or as a command to the kids having a Fruit Loop fight in the back seat.

Last edited by PukinDog; 22nd Nov 2023 at 06:26.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 06:01
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I certainly agree with you. My problem is that "stop" may be and is used in many situations. Stop-so you don't taxi across a runway you have not been cleared on, or stop and leave the box alone until we are both on the same page etc.
Abort has always meant one thing and one thing only in which both crewmembers react accordingly.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 07:23
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But I guess you're not going to be telling someone to 'stop doing [something irrelevant]' on the take off roll itself, so there's not likely to be any confusion.
it is annoying though when things get changed without explanation/context.

Not sure if it's so prescribed by them, but is it just reverting to manufacturer recommendation, or something, maybe?
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 07:51
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Originally Posted by Junkflyer
I certainly agree with you. My problem is that "stop" may be and is used in many situations. Stop-so you don't taxi across a runway you have not been cleared on, or stop and leave the box alone until we are both on the same page etc.
Abort has always meant one thing and one thing only in which both crewmembers react accordingly.
What exactly are you discussing on the take off roll where you could use the word “stop”?
Have used “stop” for 25 years, never had a situation where its meaning could be misinterpreted.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 09:09
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Always been “STOP” for the whole of my flying career - 5 airlines and 40 years..
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 09:21
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Abort phraseology

In 19.74 my lot said "Abandon". We changed to "Abort" in 1974. With BOAC/BEA/Regional division integration, we were told to sat "STOP"

Trident 1E re-check, capt Handling, I noticed EGT going wild and yelled " A b a h s t r i p ! ". Ace Skip just stopped but all four of us just giggled for a bit.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 09:32
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
When did overshooting become going around? I just don't like a statement that could be a command. Go around! We're going around.

We didn't overshoot in the old days, we just ran out of grass and really didn't need to tell anybody because because bouncing over huge sods and spinning around trees was obvious.
Overshoot became Go Around in the eighties. I think one reason was that overshoot (and undershoot) had other meanings in relation to landing short of or over running a runway and, in that context could describe the effect of windshear.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 14:15
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Originally Posted by Jonty
What exactly are you discussing on the take off roll where you could use the word “stop”?
Have used “stop” for 25 years, never had a situation where its meaning could be misinterpreted.
Precisely.

ATC says STOP (Immediately) so that's what should be said in the cockpit too.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 15:50
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Originally Posted by Junkflyer
I certainly agree with you. My problem is that "stop" may be and is used in many situations. Stop-so you don't taxi across a runway you have not been cleared on, or stop and leave the box alone until we are both on the same page etc.
Abort has always meant one thing and one thing only in which both crewmembers react accordingly.
If you really want to heat this thread up, ask who has the authority to call "Reject/Abort/Stop" and who should perform it.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 15:51
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For us it's STOP and that's how we brief it "If I call stop I will close the thrust levers, blabla..."
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:12
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Ah the famous "Stop" versus "Abort" . discussion .
Here we go again :
Before 1977 each Country had his own phraseology ,but after 1977 (Tenerife) it was unanimously decided to remove the words " Take off" in any transmissions but the actual take off clearance, , therefore all the previous local phraseologies using the words , like Abort take off, Reject take off, Cancel take off clearance, etc, etc. were to be disregarded. Since then (and still valid today ), the Correct ICAO PANS ATM phraseology , to be used is : [call sign] STOP IMMEDIATELY [repeat aircraft call sign] STOP IMMEDIATELY
Reasoning being is that the transmission can be stepped on by someone else and only a portion can be received , and if that part of it contains the words take off , it might be misunderstood.
Remember in Tenerife, one of the main factors was that the Pan am transmissions that they were still on the runway was stepped over and not received by neither the Pan Mm nor the controller. .

In addition we needed a standard wording , and when conducting a cultural check , most non native English pilots from emerging countries with basic level 4 would understand the meaning of STOP . Therefore STOP was chosen. and adding the word ' IMMEDIATELY" , is the standard ICAO terminology to convey urgency and repeating it twice , a standard for safety related messages.

I find it worrying that almost 50 years after this change there are apparently still pilots unaware of the changes and it looks like some ATC training academies and Flying schools still do not train the use that phraseology.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:30
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Ah the famous "Stop" versus "Abort" . discussion .
Here we go again :
Before 1977 each Country had his own phraseology ,but after 1977 (Tenerife) it was unanimously decided to remove the words " Take off" in any transmissions but the actual take off clearance, , therefore all the previous local phraseologies using the words , like Abort take off, Reject take off, Cancel take off clearance, etc, etc. were to be disregarded. Since then (and still valid today ), the Correct ICAO PANS ATM phraseology , to be used is : [call sign] STOP IMMEDIATELY [repeat aircraft call sign] STOP IMMEDIATELY
Reasoning being is that the transmission can be stepped on by someone else and only a portion can be received , and if that part of it contains the words take off , it might be misunderstood.
Remember in Tenerife, one of the main factors was that the Pan am transmissions that they were still on the runway was stepped over and not received by neither the Pan Mm nor the controller. .

In addition we needed a standard wording , and when conducting a cultural check , most non native English pilots from emerging countries with basic level 4 would understand the meaning of STOP . Therefore STOP was chosen. and adding the word ' IMMEDIATELY" , is the standard ICAO terminology to convey urgency and repeating it twice , a standard for safety related messages.

I find it worrying that almost 50 years after this change there are apparently still pilots unaware of the changes and it looks like some ATC training academies and Flying schools still do not train the use that phraseology.
I think everyone is on the same page with respect to the R/T phraseology.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:43
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Yeah for sure, just remember to “roll the trucks” whenever you need… trucks? To roll? Phuck Noes.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:47
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American ATC is an embarrassment to any professional aviator who has worldwide experience.

If you can’t understand that; it’s called cognitive dissonance.

If you can’t understand cognitive dissonance; you…….. waste of breath.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 17:50
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
American ATC is an embarrassment to any professional aviator who has worldwide experience.

If you can’t understand that; it’s called cognitive dissonance.

If you can’t understand cognitive dissonance; you…….. waste of breath.
If you think American ATC is an embarrassment then I reckon your "world" experience isn't all that wide, and most likely on the most well-beaten paths.

Now, if you're upset at pilots who don't use proper R/T phraseology, I'm the first guy to propose a world-wide system of fines for transmitting useless and annoying phrases. What have you done about it except fume?

ATC Watcher..BD has one I forgot about for The List: "Roll the trucks" ($640)

Last edited by PukinDog; 22nd Nov 2023 at 18:15.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 18:21
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Originally Posted by PukinDog
I think everyone is on the same page with respect to the R/T phraseology.
well look at the title of this thread to start with , and the content of the question :
I have a question for EU or other airline pilots.
The US carrier I work for recently changed the captain's call to "Stop" for a rejected take off.
It had been "Abort" for as long as I recall and was the same at a previous outfit except for a brief time when "Reject" was used.
What is word do you use?
Recently , i.e. in 2023, so it took 45 years or so for this US carrier to comply with the Correct ICAO Phraseology.

On "Rolls the Trucks" , , yes 640 $ at least , I forgot one the most annoying to us Europeans is the " climbing and maintaining " as if you were otherwise going the do roller coaster up and own after reaching your cleared FL , keep up the list !
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