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Aircraft Hit and run at JFK

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Aircraft Hit and run at JFK

Old 26th Jun 2022, 22:42
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fokker1000 View Post
Just seen that post from Havick..

First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.

Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.
ATC 101, the busier the freq, the slower and more precise you speak. Avoids corrections and repeats.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 23:04
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 5star View Post
Quite normal actually what they did. Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
Yes the sequence in and of itself isn’t unusual, but the specific context here is that getting through to the Itarrow before they depart should have been time critical, and done by the guy giving out the phone number ringing tower himself ASAP. The amount of time wasted giving AF a phone number seemingly prevented the message getting through pre-takeoff.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 08:00
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 5star View Post
Quite normal actually what they did.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
Something arises that has a potentially catastrophic outcome with the loss of hundreds of lives that has a time critical course of action to stop it... and they want to spend a minute or two take it off ramp / ground frequency to stop congestion? Really?


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Old 27th Jun 2022, 08:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Any pictures of the damage on either aircraft?
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 08:59
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 10:41
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. T
Why should JFK ATC and Air France speak in accordance with the UK CAA radiotelephony manual?

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Old 27th Jun 2022, 11:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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You are right, my meaning was : IF they had used standard phrases and message structure, confusion would have been reduced.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 11:12
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 733driver View Post
Why should JFK ATC and Air France speak in accordance with the UK CAA radiotelephony manual?
How about - to avoid the confusing scenario everyone is talking about here?
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 11:24
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey View Post
If the ground handlers saw the incident - why the hell did they not immediately report it and get the Alitalia Itarro stopped and returned to the gate?

Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.

Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...
I bet a Mayday call on the Ground frequency would cause a bit of a flap in the JFK control room!
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 11:25
  #50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
LHR I agree has excellent ATC. CDG not so much! Some CDG controllers seem to think their lives depend on how many words per minute they can speak not to mention the whole two language mess.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 14:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Some CDG controllers seem to think their lives depend on how many words per minute they can speak

That may be so but that's exactly how I describe the majority of ATCOs in the USA. But, the locals don't seem to have a problem with it. It's all down to being more in tune with one's native language no matter at which speed the delivery is made. However, some ATCOs just do not grasp the need to slow down and make the effort to be clearer when speaking to non natives. Just here, locally in The Netherlands (no, not Amsterdam), I was the other day astounded at the speed of delivery and lack of clarity by a Dutch ATCO with an Chinese crew. I lost count of the number of "say again" requests by the crew! Not even a busy airport.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 19:35
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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As a semi-outsider who stays out of the transport hubs unless I have to, these guys were really easy to understand. I’m in and out of a lot of US Bravo airspace weekly/monthly and this is the way it is.

I’ve had ground control at Teterboro John Wayne or Waukegan who were utterly unintelligible for extended periods, and these folks were professional…
The planes didn’t break and everyone made it home for supper.

Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years…
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 21:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 421dog
Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years…
Sadly, I think that the fact that everyone made it home for supper may be down more to luck than any positive safety culture......on the part of some of those involved, at least.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 04:10
  #54 (permalink)  
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Mod Alert: If you all cannot disagree with one another without being disagreeable, then please refrain from posting.

This incident is of interest to anyone flying in and out of JFK (and possibly other destinations).
Let us please retain our professional focus on that.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 08:34
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the next time an event like this would warrant some PanPanPan call on ground and naming the other guy "italian" instead of "Alitalia" for ITA so he can be located via the registration easier? The AF cockpit did a good job no offense to anybody.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 09:00
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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At LHR we often used to be warned of the XXX aircraft in YYY colours passing left to right or behind - because ATC understood that pilots would not necessarily know which call-signs referred to which aircraft.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 09:13
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
Maybe the next time an event like this would warrant some PanPanPan call on ground and naming the other guy "italian" instead of "Alitalia" for ITA
The same A332 departing Boston a couple of weeks ago operating ITA Airways' ITY615 to FCO:



I think one could be forgiven for referring to it as "Alitalia", under the circumstances.

EI-EJL | Airbus A330-202 | Alitalia (ITA Airways) | bill wang | JetPhotos

Last edited by DaveReidUK; 28th Jun 2022 at 11:33. Reason: typo
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 11:35
  #58 (permalink)  
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In many other airline mergers they put what amounts to a large decal over the old name with the new name. Avoids confusion for everyone until the aircraft are cycled through paint.
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 12:51
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.

ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).

Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.

"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
I don't see any CAP413 phrases applicable to this incident in your example

Having said that, a bit of articulation from the French crew would have helped, as would a more factual description of the accident: '27 minutes ago, Alitalia A330 wing tip collided with my tail and caused damage'
Mind you, according to the YouTube video, Air France called the ground 27 minutes after the collision. No wonder the ground controller was a bit confused as to who hit what, when and where.
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Old 29th Jun 2022, 16:59
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, 27 minutes later ? Ahhh. Hmmm.







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