Aircraft Hit and run at JFK
Just seen that post from Havick..
First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.
Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.
First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.
Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.
Quite normal actually what they did. Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
Quite normal actually what they did.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
You are right, my meaning was : IF they had used standard phrases and message structure, confusion would have been reduced.
If the ground handlers saw the incident - why the hell did they not immediately report it and get the Alitalia Itarro stopped and returned to the gate?
Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.
Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...
Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.
Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...
Thread Starter
The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
Some CDG controllers seem to think their lives depend on how many words per minute they can speak
That may be so but that's exactly how I describe the majority of ATCOs in the USA. But, the locals don't seem to have a problem with it. It's all down to being more in tune with one's native language no matter at which speed the delivery is made. However, some ATCOs just do not grasp the need to slow down and make the effort to be clearer when speaking to non natives. Just here, locally in The Netherlands (no, not Amsterdam), I was the other day astounded at the speed of delivery and lack of clarity by a Dutch ATCO with an Chinese crew. I lost count of the number of "say again" requests by the crew! Not even a busy airport.
That may be so but that's exactly how I describe the majority of ATCOs in the USA. But, the locals don't seem to have a problem with it. It's all down to being more in tune with one's native language no matter at which speed the delivery is made. However, some ATCOs just do not grasp the need to slow down and make the effort to be clearer when speaking to non natives. Just here, locally in The Netherlands (no, not Amsterdam), I was the other day astounded at the speed of delivery and lack of clarity by a Dutch ATCO with an Chinese crew. I lost count of the number of "say again" requests by the crew! Not even a busy airport.
As a semi-outsider who stays out of the transport hubs unless I have to, these guys were really easy to understand. I’m in and out of a lot of US Bravo airspace weekly/monthly and this is the way it is.
I’ve had ground control at Teterboro John Wayne or Waukegan who were utterly unintelligible for extended periods, and these folks were professional…
The planes didn’t break and everyone made it home for supper.
Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years…
I’ve had ground control at Teterboro John Wayne or Waukegan who were utterly unintelligible for extended periods, and these folks were professional…
The planes didn’t break and everyone made it home for supper.
Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years…
Originally Posted by 421dog
Seems like we might have effected enough of a safety culture that the world won’t end for a few more years…
Administrator
Mod Alert: If you all cannot disagree with one another without being disagreeable, then please refrain from posting.
This incident is of interest to anyone flying in and out of JFK (and possibly other destinations).
Let us please retain our professional focus on that.
This incident is of interest to anyone flying in and out of JFK (and possibly other destinations).
Let us please retain our professional focus on that.
Maybe the next time an event like this would warrant some PanPanPan call on ground and naming the other guy "italian" instead of "Alitalia" for ITA so he can be located via the registration easier? The AF cockpit did a good job no offense to anybody.
At LHR we often used to be warned of the XXX aircraft in YYY colours passing left to right or behind - because ATC understood that pilots would not necessarily know which call-signs referred to which aircraft.
I think one could be forgiven for referring to it as "Alitalia", under the circumstances.
EI-EJL | Airbus A330-202 | Alitalia (ITA Airways) | bill wang | JetPhotos
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 28th Jun 2022 at 11:33. Reason: typo
Thread Starter
In many other airline mergers they put what amounts to a large decal over the old name with the new name. Avoids confusion for everyone until the aircraft are cycled through paint.
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The ground controller sounds and behaves as though he was half asleep. The AF gave their position the first time they called up, but there was a long delay before ATC replied, and then the controller spent ages trying to find their position.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
ATC at JFK is always a challenge. LHR and CDG, to mention two, are both huge and busy airports with much better ATC, so it can be done. I was not aware of part of ATC being a private company at JFK but it is always a monumental pain in the arse to have to make separate radio calls on box 2 to find out which stand you are allocated while you are taxiing in. Just frigging well talk to each other ATC, and work with each other ! (There must be a screen available showing everybody's stand allocation).
Also: both aircraft and ATC should have spoken more clearly and used CAP 413 phrases and message construction. That way we all have a better chance of understanding first time - even those for whom English is not their first language.
"Ground, this is AF xxx. We are holding at gate/stand 9 and another aircraft has just struck us".
"AF xxx, Roger. Hold your position. Did you see which aircraft?". etc.
Having said that, a bit of articulation from the French crew would have helped, as would a more factual description of the accident: '27 minutes ago, Alitalia A330 wing tip collided with my tail and caused damage'
Mind you, according to the YouTube video, Air France called the ground 27 minutes after the collision. No wonder the ground controller was a bit confused as to who hit what, when and where.
Oh, 27 minutes later ? Ahhh. Hmmm.
