Aircraft Hit and run at JFK
Thread Starter
This is a better narrative. JFK tower and ground bear some responsibility. Departures should have been stopped until they sorted out who was involved. I suspect the use of Alitalia name created some of the confusion with JFK atc.
Full marks to Air France for persisting in the face of extremely indifferent ATC, er, GTC 👏
While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.
Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?
To be fair the recording may not be complete, and no doubt more detail will out following investigation but at this stage it appears to me there are a series of holes in the cheese lining up that shouldn't (incl Alitalia crew), and it's just luck that there wasn't a last hole ready for everything to drop through. If nothing else this could make a good training event for various organisations to show how easily things can go awry if people don't do as they should, or are not at the peak of their game all the time.
While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.
Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?
To be fair the recording may not be complete, and no doubt more detail will out following investigation but at this stage it appears to me there are a series of holes in the cheese lining up that shouldn't (incl Alitalia crew), and it's just luck that there wasn't a last hole ready for everything to drop through. If nothing else this could make a good training event for various organisations to show how easily things can go awry if people don't do as they should, or are not at the peak of their game all the time.
Last edited by First_Principal; 26th Jun 2022 at 02:53. Reason: minor grammatical error
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It would be very interesting comparing the apparent "go-mindedness" of this ATC tower team to that of a USN carrier launch crew. If what I watch on the myriad of YouTube videos out there is accurate, there seems to be a big focus on making sure no-one can see the slightest reason not to launch before giving the thumbs up. I'll bet if you had whispered "collision" and "damage" within 50ft of those guys you would've seen so many crossed arms it would've made your head spin.
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And the ITA reaction is what you get, when the ATC is arrogant to the max. Ehhh, Trump country ?
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Agree if that recording is 100% correct than it’s very poor from ATC. However the Italian crew must of felt some form of bump or heard a noise as they hit the Air France surely?
It’s an IMMEDIATE press the emergency line and an Aircraft ground incident reaction from a controller in the UK.
It’s an IMMEDIATE press the emergency line and an Aircraft ground incident reaction from a controller in the UK.
Damage to the AZ A330 appears to have been confined to a winglet (it was in service again a couple of days after arriving at Rome), whereas the AF 777 is still grounded at JFK more than a week after the event, so it's perfectly possible that the crew of the former were unaware of the incident.
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How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars belief….
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars belief….
Full marks to Air France for persisting in the face of extremely indifferent ATC, er, GTC 👏
While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.
Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?
While there may have been some minor difficulties with accent I didn't have any issue understanding AF the first time, let alone the further multiple times they tried to explain.
Once Ground got it (or did they?!) I was very surprised they asked AF to find a telephone and call the Tower, that doesn't seem reasonable to me - at least not in the first instance?
I think the language from ATC was poor, seemed to be more questioning the ITA crew vs telling. Naturally if the ITA crew felt nothing, and no red flags up front, false alarm mindset comes to mind.
‘That’s not the way it works at JFK, nor at quite a few large US airports.’
However, in this instance, that was how it did work; and additionally from US experience, how frequent similar situations indicate the fragility of that system’s operation.
An attitude of ‘… better get used to it’ can hide significant hazards, expecting that all crews will manage all situations, all of the time, which questions the level of safety - as observed, or as expected - who views, and when.
However, in this instance, that was how it did work; and additionally from US experience, how frequent similar situations indicate the fragility of that system’s operation.
An attitude of ‘… better get used to it’ can hide significant hazards, expecting that all crews will manage all situations, all of the time, which questions the level of safety - as observed, or as expected - who views, and when.
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Very well said safetypee, it absolutely doesn't have to be this way. Combined with the often belligerent and arrogant attitude of controllers at Kennedy (Steve 
) bordering on the unprofessional it really makes things harder than they need to be, and definitely not safer.
) bordering on the unprofessional it really makes things harder than they need to be, and definitely not safer.
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