UK ATC worst in Europe ?
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The article may be correct and factual but the headline is crap. If it had read "UK ATC Worst in Europe for Delays" then maybe that would be OK but "UK ATC Worst in Europe"? That's just sensationalism that is more suited to the likes of The Sun. UK ATC is far and away the best in Europe from a pilots perspective (except for the delays of course).
Lazlo
Lazlo
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Even though our beloved cousins sent us to the colonies over 200 years ago for our sins, there is one thing I will never begrudge them. They are by far and away the best ATCO'S in the world. If they had a descent system to work with, they would be even better. 411A, comparing the Poms to the Frogs is like suggesting Hitler was a closet homosexual. The 2 just don't go together. The French are good blokes (and the woman controllers sound absolutely gorgeous), but they are along way behind the Brits in terms of efficiency and professionalism.
No I am not a closet Monarchist. I did however have the privelege to live and work in Europe for some time and the poms get my vote every time. Long live Derek and Nigel!
No I am not a closet Monarchist. I did however have the privelege to live and work in Europe for some time and the poms get my vote every time. Long live Derek and Nigel!
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TheFox
You are very right. The official ICAO languages are for documents etc (I beleive that arabic is now also an official language). They do not relate to ATC. The rule is still that language used should be that normally used by the station on the ground or on request english.
You are very right. The official ICAO languages are for documents etc (I beleive that arabic is now also an official language). They do not relate to ATC. The rule is still that language used should be that normally used by the station on the ground or on request english.
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I'm not going to get involved with some jingoistic crap about who’re the ‘best’ ATCer’s, because there’s good and bad in all the systems, indeed and maybe especially so when one considers that the fella operating a sector in Albania probably has stuff-all kit ( veritably 2s6d worth of ex Soviet crap ) to work with, whilst UK ATC get £650,000,000 (just for Swanwick).
That said, and if you’d like proof of professionalism, try declaring an emergency just after take-off in the UK albeit w.r.t. that which happens in various (supposedly co-joined) states within the United States of Europe !
E.g. In the UK the controllers are very definitely a +ve asset when things are going wrong ( where indeed to say ‘Ace’ would be to understate it ! ).
However, in some parts of Europe it might definitely pay to ignore ATC when the sh!t hits the fan (so to speak), i.e. even when it’s all seemingly going ok they can hardly cope – never mind in a ‘Mayday’ situation – i.e. where what’s required is cool, calm, and collected thought, plus clear communications ( in every respect of the word) – i.e. UK ATC personified !
That said, and if you’d like proof of professionalism, try declaring an emergency just after take-off in the UK albeit w.r.t. that which happens in various (supposedly co-joined) states within the United States of Europe !
E.g. In the UK the controllers are very definitely a +ve asset when things are going wrong ( where indeed to say ‘Ace’ would be to understate it ! ).
However, in some parts of Europe it might definitely pay to ignore ATC when the sh!t hits the fan (so to speak), i.e. even when it’s all seemingly going ok they can hardly cope – never mind in a ‘Mayday’ situation – i.e. where what’s required is cool, calm, and collected thought, plus clear communications ( in every respect of the word) – i.e. UK ATC personified !
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Cathar & Fox
I believe that those languages also apply to ATC (IFR comm). Can't find anything yet, but ... it is out there somewhere.
I believe that those languages also apply to ATC (IFR comm). Can't find anything yet, but ... it is out there somewhere.
I think there is little argument that ATC'ers in the UK are amongst the best there are but as a complete service things have got much worse since Swanwick came online. Many routes we fly out of LHR to the North of the UK and Ireland are level capped at FL180 or have to be re-routed at short notice, we suffer long slot delays for many routes and the restriction is more often than not a London one. We are basically unable to operate our schedule a good deal of the time. Add to that the R/T quality from the new centre, which is diabolical much of the time, and all in all Swanwick has not been a a real flop for my point of view.
Many controllers seem to feel the same which means someone should have some very expensive egg on thier faces.
Many controllers seem to feel the same which means someone should have some very expensive egg on thier faces.
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Max Angle.
When you say the R/T quality from Swanwick is diabolical, do you mean the reception of the transmission or the instructions you are being given are diabolical ?
Mr G.
When you say the R/T quality from Swanwick is diabolical, do you mean the reception of the transmission or the instructions you are being given are diabolical ?
Mr G.
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Squawk777 & language
The real authority on this is ICAO Annex 10, Vol II which says:
5.2.1.2 Language to be used
5.2.1.2.1 Recommendation.— In general, the air-ground radiotelephony communications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground.
Note.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located.
5.2.1.2.2 Recommendation.— Pending the development and adoption of a more suitable form of speech for universal use in aeronautical radiotelephony communications, the English language should be used as such and should be available, on request from any aircraft station unable to comply with 5.2.1.2.1, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.
My reading of that is that you should use the language of the folks on the ground. Failing that, try English!
5.2.1.2 Language to be used
5.2.1.2.1 Recommendation.— In general, the air-ground radiotelephony communications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground.
Note.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located.
5.2.1.2.2 Recommendation.— Pending the development and adoption of a more suitable form of speech for universal use in aeronautical radiotelephony communications, the English language should be used as such and should be available, on request from any aircraft station unable to comply with 5.2.1.2.1, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.
My reading of that is that you should use the language of the folks on the ground. Failing that, try English!
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UK ATC is most certainly not the worst in Europe (just look at Belgium!). They are probably the best in the world, despite the pressure they have to bear from the politicians and their beancounter management. Others have said it - it's often a relief to hear that competent well-trained voice, who's there to help, not hinder, expedite your flight and keep you safe and separated from all those others out there. We should thank them, not have a go at them.
Pegase Driver
This topic "who is the best ATC " seeem to come back with regularity every 18 months or so. Just like the club of old women looking at the only men at the table and asking "who is the most beautiful "
The UK has the enormous advantage of sound regulations, safety-orientated staff , relatively well paid ( compared to the rest of the world ) and using their mother tongue to work.
In addition to this, they are indeed good professionals in the majority . So they are definitively on top of the ladder.
Where exacty is unimportant, as ( my views ) we should all co-operate and help one another rather than compete.
I would not like to be working at LATCC today.
Now for something REALLY interesting : how about starting a thread on "which airline has the best and which one the worst pilots ? "
The UK has the enormous advantage of sound regulations, safety-orientated staff , relatively well paid ( compared to the rest of the world ) and using their mother tongue to work.
In addition to this, they are indeed good professionals in the majority . So they are definitively on top of the ladder.
Where exacty is unimportant, as ( my views ) we should all co-operate and help one another rather than compete.
I would not like to be working at LATCC today.
Now for something REALLY interesting : how about starting a thread on "which airline has the best and which one the worst pilots ? "
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I hope they do speak the international language of aviation, if anything !!!!! it's their mother tongue ! easy !
it would be a shame.....
avman wrote : "Beamer ,
"And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe."
What a prattish statement. I wonder how the likes of you would react if ICAO decreed that French or Spanish should be the new international language and be spoken in the UK.
ALL foreign controllers speak English with English speaking pilots"
how true !!!
freightdog727 : Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!"
haha ! I'd rather read that than be blind..... that is crap.
What nationality are you ? British ? then go back and eat your green jelly, drive on the left side of the road, and wear a kilt... easy to insult people, you know, even French people can do that !!!
and concerning French ATC... people keep on saying in this forum that "poor British controllers, they do what they can, it's not their fault if the system sucks." Hey !! ever wondered if it's not also the case in other countries? Do you know how our system work ? do you know why you wait above Paris ? what do you know about the inside of French ATC (and others...). Probably not much....
and the waypoint are in the FMS, if you are RNAV equipped, just learn how to read first...
it would be a shame.....
avman wrote : "Beamer ,
"And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe."
What a prattish statement. I wonder how the likes of you would react if ICAO decreed that French or Spanish should be the new international language and be spoken in the UK.
ALL foreign controllers speak English with English speaking pilots"
how true !!!
freightdog727 : Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!"
haha ! I'd rather read that than be blind..... that is crap.
What nationality are you ? British ? then go back and eat your green jelly, drive on the left side of the road, and wear a kilt... easy to insult people, you know, even French people can do that !!!
and concerning French ATC... people keep on saying in this forum that "poor British controllers, they do what they can, it's not their fault if the system sucks." Hey !! ever wondered if it's not also the case in other countries? Do you know how our system work ? do you know why you wait above Paris ? what do you know about the inside of French ATC (and others...). Probably not much....
and the waypoint are in the FMS, if you are RNAV equipped, just learn how to read first...
Last edited by salzkorn; 30th Aug 2002 at 20:53.
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What should be considered as well is, that the quality of service ATCOs are able to provide depends on other factors which are beyond their control, for instance noise abatement procedures, size of airspace, staffing levels, complexity of route structure.
And bashing controllers about their english language skills is inappropriate and unprofessional, Mr. freightdog!
And bashing controllers about their english language skills is inappropriate and unprofessional, Mr. freightdog!
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The article in the ST does nothing for the morale of the UK controllers who I think are great. I believe more could be done to support the UK controllers who suffer from undermanning and therefore are overstretched.
I would welcome more exposure in the media of the diificulties that the UK controllers have, and what a good job they do despite their challenging circumstances. Also, the likes of Ms Dunwoody MP would I am sure fight the controllers' corner where it matters.
The media coverage to date merely reflects on the huge amount of public money that has been spent at Swanwick, with no apparent improvement in service.
Come on controllers, get your message out and stand up for yourselves. We're all on side.
I would welcome more exposure in the media of the diificulties that the UK controllers have, and what a good job they do despite their challenging circumstances. Also, the likes of Ms Dunwoody MP would I am sure fight the controllers' corner where it matters.
The media coverage to date merely reflects on the huge amount of public money that has been spent at Swanwick, with no apparent improvement in service.
Come on controllers, get your message out and stand up for yourselves. We're all on side.
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@salzkorn
I´m flying to LFPG quite frequently. But nobody scares you better!
French is ICAO language,ok. But what about situational awareness? What about a lot of RWY-incursions at de-Gaulle? Wasn´t there a recommendation for ALL the pilots and controlers to speak english 2 years ago?
Well, nothing happend, nothing changed!
What a shame!
However, nice nick!
I´m flying to LFPG quite frequently. But nobody scares you better!
French is ICAO language,ok. But what about situational awareness? What about a lot of RWY-incursions at de-Gaulle? Wasn´t there a recommendation for ALL the pilots and controlers to speak english 2 years ago?
Well, nothing happend, nothing changed!
What a shame!
However, nice nick!
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crj-jockey
I agree with you : I'm in favor of a single language radiotelephony, be it English, French, German, Chinese or Swahili. Sometimes I see me walking in non French speaking pilots' shoes and I think : "wow, how stressing not to understand everything."
OK. I just can't do it alone in my corner.....
But what got on my nerves when I wrote my message was that way that some have to say : "hey, British controllers are the best in the world, and at least they speak English, THEM !!!"
I would be curious to know how well it would be, if radiotelecommunications were to be conducted in Chinese or Russian....
I don't know anything of German control, but I would say that German pilots at least speak English THEM. That way it's ok, because it's not their mother tongue...
As far as capabilities of controllers are concerned : nobody seems to express any doubts about the one of British Controllers. I wouldn't either. But please try to be a bit more open minded, and don't doubt the one of LFPG ontrollers (I talk about what I know). We have many constraints, we have a restricted airspace, we have Le Bourget very close (although North departures are not really concerned), we suffer from undermanning too, maybe bosses are not as good as they could be (don't want to expand on that.....) etc etc.... You don't know all those pbs, the only thing you know is the result of those constraints, which are not always the more suitable for you....
If I were to judge British ATC by what I read of its results, I would say it is quite poor.; whereas all of you seem to say controllers are quite good. It's just also the case in some other places..... stop looking down at your belling button for a while.
As for the English level of some of us..... I agree that sometimes, work still have to be done.... It scratches my ears when I hear some of my colleagues say "contact Departüüüre on ...."
ouch....
crj-jockey, for the nick, you're welcome
Ich wünche, dass ich bald auf der Funk in CDG mit Dir sprechen werde "
I agree with you : I'm in favor of a single language radiotelephony, be it English, French, German, Chinese or Swahili. Sometimes I see me walking in non French speaking pilots' shoes and I think : "wow, how stressing not to understand everything."
OK. I just can't do it alone in my corner.....
But what got on my nerves when I wrote my message was that way that some have to say : "hey, British controllers are the best in the world, and at least they speak English, THEM !!!"
I would be curious to know how well it would be, if radiotelecommunications were to be conducted in Chinese or Russian....
I don't know anything of German control, but I would say that German pilots at least speak English THEM. That way it's ok, because it's not their mother tongue...
As far as capabilities of controllers are concerned : nobody seems to express any doubts about the one of British Controllers. I wouldn't either. But please try to be a bit more open minded, and don't doubt the one of LFPG ontrollers (I talk about what I know). We have many constraints, we have a restricted airspace, we have Le Bourget very close (although North departures are not really concerned), we suffer from undermanning too, maybe bosses are not as good as they could be (don't want to expand on that.....) etc etc.... You don't know all those pbs, the only thing you know is the result of those constraints, which are not always the more suitable for you....
If I were to judge British ATC by what I read of its results, I would say it is quite poor.; whereas all of you seem to say controllers are quite good. It's just also the case in some other places..... stop looking down at your belling button for a while.
As for the English level of some of us..... I agree that sometimes, work still have to be done.... It scratches my ears when I hear some of my colleagues say "contact Departüüüre on ...."
ouch....
crj-jockey, for the nick, you're welcome
Ich wünche, dass ich bald auf der Funk in CDG mit Dir sprechen werde
"
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Chapeau, Monsieur salzkorn (alsacien?)!
Your english is very sophisticated for a frenchman.
Und Dein deutsch ist auch nicht schlecht!
Seriously now, constraints like restricted airspace and other things which I've mentioned in my previous post are a common concern for controllers all over europe.
They're all sitting in the same boat in that respect.
Your english is very sophisticated for a frenchman.
Und Dein deutsch ist auch nicht schlecht!
Seriously now, constraints like restricted airspace and other things which I've mentioned in my previous post are a common concern for controllers all over europe.
They're all sitting in the same boat in that respect.
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Just how bad is R/T quality at Swanwick
On another thread, it's stated that the R/T quality at Swanwick is not good.
How bad is it ? Is it a serious problem NATS Mgt. should be doing something about because I'm sure they are not at the moment.
How bad is it ? Is it a serious problem NATS Mgt. should be doing something about because I'm sure they are not at the moment.