UK ATC worst in Europe ?
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UK ATC
Good or Bad ?
Sometimes things fall into place sometimes not.
On the whole, by virtue of the fact that in my experience nobody is better than UK ATC, then I think they are the best in the world.
Sometimes things fall into place sometimes not.
On the whole, by virtue of the fact that in my experience nobody is better than UK ATC, then I think they are the best in the world.
411a, Yes, I do think you're dumping on the UK. In 29 years I have always been glad to hear UK ATC on my return. When airborne they have always been of the highest standard. On the ground delays due the infrastructure are not life endangering. As for Amsterdam, yes, they are quite good but not as good as their English leads you to believe. Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it.
The UK controllers have my total support. Also sympathy for the incompetent Management and Government that have led to this story.
The UK controllers have my total support. Also sympathy for the incompetent Management and Government that have led to this story.
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"Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it. "
Please do! Let's say I have a clinical interest... Less interested in a ranking than I am in thoughts as to where we're falling short and what we can do to improve... Is this a comment having to do with individual controller performance or does it refer to something in the systemic/policy/management realm?
av8boy
Please do! Let's say I have a clinical interest... Less interested in a ranking than I am in thoughts as to where we're falling short and what we can do to improve... Is this a comment having to do with individual controller performance or does it refer to something in the systemic/policy/management realm?
av8boy
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Great ... this is becoming a UK vs the rest of Europe/the world thread!
Let's remove all the nationalism/patriotism involved in this issue, what apparently makes UK ATC so bad?
I don't think (UK) controllers have an interest to delay planes etc. And yes, (UK) controllers are friendly most of the time, since it is their job to work with pilots, but there are still a great number of delays! Everything I read so far, does not explain or goes too much into depth. And please... a over 600 million quit investment for the same amount of delays. I'd be kinda pi$$ed too ...
UK ATC let's hear it from you, especially the controllers! What is your criticism? I am not interested in any "we're the best" blablabla, I'd like to read some details and problems ATC has.
Hey mods, any chance creating a crosslink from the NATS forum to this thread?
Is that published on the internet?
Let's remove all the nationalism/patriotism involved in this issue, what apparently makes UK ATC so bad?
BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.
UK ATC let's hear it from you, especially the controllers! What is your criticism? I am not interested in any "we're the best" blablabla, I'd like to read some details and problems ATC has.
Hey mods, any chance creating a crosslink from the NATS forum to this thread?
In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain
Last edited by Squawk7777; 27th Aug 2002 at 03:18.
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I hope MY post wasn't taken as nationalistic (jingoistic, xenophobic, etc, etc) posturing... It's just that the US ATC thing was invoked so casually that I can't help but think I'm the only one who DOESN'T understand what the implication is. Of course, talking fast and not pausing between transmissions comes to mind (mea culpa, mea culpa…), as does ending a sentence with a preposition, like I did before. Or sentence fragments. Or starting a sentence with “and” (or “or”). And the unnecessary splitting of an infinitive. OK. So I'm overdoing the lighthearted thing. Sorry. Long day.
Don't be shy... I'm not itching for a fight here. Just looking for some honest criticism. (And yes, I understand that the ATC forum is the obvious choice for this discussion, but hey, I found it here.)
av8boy
Don't be shy... I'm not itching for a fight here. Just looking for some honest criticism. (And yes, I understand that the ATC forum is the obvious choice for this discussion, but hey, I found it here.)
av8boy
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Flying cargo mostly out of Germany (very often to Bristol,Coventry
and East Midlands) I´m always happy when handled over to London.These boys and girls do a excellent job compared to Germany (many route changes,restrictions etc.) mastricht and brussels are o.k.
Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!
and East Midlands) I´m always happy when handled over to London.These boys and girls do a excellent job compared to Germany (many route changes,restrictions etc.) mastricht and brussels are o.k.
Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!
Avman - thankyou for your considered opinion of my 'prattish' reply - just checked the dictionary, don't think its in there old boy.
I accept that controllers are required to speak English/American
to foreign aircraft in their airpsace - the problem comes when they
insist on speaking in Spanish/French/Italian or whatever other
language to local based or registered aircraft. This is fine at a
small grass strip but when used at an international airport or
in controlled airsapce use of local language to some aircraft and
not to others causes, quite simply, confusion. Professional pilots,
in attutude as well as employment,should always be taught not only to 'look out' but also to 'listen out' - not an easy task when different languages are being used. Talk to any pilot operating in
Europe in commercial aircraft and they will know the problem.
I want and need to know what the other guy is doing and where
he is - mistakes happen (recent Swiss mid-air) - I don't have time
to waste trying to comprehend the airborne situation in another
language.
If your 'mother tongue' is English, you do have a natural advantage of course - I can get by in French but do I also have to
become fluent in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Turkish etc etc ?
We all know which states are the worst in this respect - it is not
a question of ability more a question of attitude - is'nt it Senor ?
Still, perhaps a solution in Europe at least. We all know that Tony
Blair is desperate for us to join the Euro - three years max I reckon - why don't we all quickly learn Esperanto at the same time then all of us in the EU can not only use the same currency but speak the same language as well. So watch out all you guys
from Delta/American/Cathay/Quantas etc - before you know it you
will all be signing up to learn a new language before being allowed to fly in the United Staes of Europe.
I accept that controllers are required to speak English/American
to foreign aircraft in their airpsace - the problem comes when they
insist on speaking in Spanish/French/Italian or whatever other
language to local based or registered aircraft. This is fine at a
small grass strip but when used at an international airport or
in controlled airsapce use of local language to some aircraft and
not to others causes, quite simply, confusion. Professional pilots,
in attutude as well as employment,should always be taught not only to 'look out' but also to 'listen out' - not an easy task when different languages are being used. Talk to any pilot operating in
Europe in commercial aircraft and they will know the problem.
I want and need to know what the other guy is doing and where
he is - mistakes happen (recent Swiss mid-air) - I don't have time
to waste trying to comprehend the airborne situation in another
language.
If your 'mother tongue' is English, you do have a natural advantage of course - I can get by in French but do I also have to
become fluent in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Turkish etc etc ?
We all know which states are the worst in this respect - it is not
a question of ability more a question of attitude - is'nt it Senor ?
Still, perhaps a solution in Europe at least. We all know that Tony
Blair is desperate for us to join the Euro - three years max I reckon - why don't we all quickly learn Esperanto at the same time then all of us in the EU can not only use the same currency but speak the same language as well. So watch out all you guys
from Delta/American/Cathay/Quantas etc - before you know it you
will all be signing up to learn a new language before being allowed to fly in the United Staes of Europe.
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After a mid-day flight from the UK into Olbia (Sardinia) the other day no-one can convince me that the UK ATC is the worst in Europe! As usual Sardinia was a complete mad-house! The route takes one over Corsica where the VHF is in a mixture of French and English which then degenerates into a worse mixture of Italian,English and shouting!! After that the UK ATC is absolutely wonderful!
Going back to the original post, as one on the inside, I feel that the Sunday Times published an accurate summary of the facts. I certainly don't feel personally insulted, more relieved that the appalling truth is gradually reaching a wider audience.
As a colleague said recently, working at Swanwick is like watching the slowest train wreck ever. An excellent description!! Each day a little more of the disaster unfolds in front of your eyes, but there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the course of events. I just hope I'm still unscathed when the train finally comes to a halt, and that there are no fatalities.
As a colleague said recently, working at Swanwick is like watching the slowest train wreck ever. An excellent description!! Each day a little more of the disaster unfolds in front of your eyes, but there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the course of events. I just hope I'm still unscathed when the train finally comes to a halt, and that there are no fatalities.
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Notwithstanding anything that Numpo-Nigit has to say about ATC to-day, we should not forget that the Insight team at the Sunday Times made a total cock up of their report into the Korean Airliner being shot down and demonstrated that they had not made even the slightest effort to understand INS, (as it then was), or indeed anything else technical and sought only to present a very dramatic but totally inaccurate yarn to the unitiated public. I rarely read the Sunday Times now, it is just a very large tabloid, but I kept the faith for a number of years after KAL007 and Insight never improved beyond the level of Enid Blyton.
Personally I think UK ATC is the best and I ask 411A when he was last in command of an aircraft in UK airspace?
Personally I think UK ATC is the best and I ask 411A when he was last in command of an aircraft in UK airspace?
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The majority of controllers in this country are of a good standard however the problem is they are not given the oportunity to give valuable enough input into decision making, that instead is left to managers who dont know there arse from their elbow!
Swanwick was never going to increase capacity and reduce delays only a complete overhaul of airspace in this country will put us on the right track.It is all very well the government saying they want more airports and more runways but there is no space up above to put them and no one in management/government is talking about that, because they dont know what they are doing!
It does not mean that controllers are always right but the pressure is on and thats when the mistakes happen and NATS mangement dont want to know.They have followed in the footsteps of New Labour all "spin" to make us look good but the reality is somewhat different.
Swanwick was never going to increase capacity and reduce delays only a complete overhaul of airspace in this country will put us on the right track.It is all very well the government saying they want more airports and more runways but there is no space up above to put them and no one in management/government is talking about that, because they dont know what they are doing!
It does not mean that controllers are always right but the pressure is on and thats when the mistakes happen and NATS mangement dont want to know.They have followed in the footsteps of New Labour all "spin" to make us look good but the reality is somewhat different.
AV8BOY, No insult intended, US ATC is one of the better ones around the world but as you say speaking too fast and a somewhat impatient attitude with others drops them a few places. I feel you just assumed that you were alongside 411A as he runs down anything remotely British.
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Anybody remember Victor Smart ?
Aviation correspondant on the Observer 1985-89ish.
Now he was a hack who had his finger on the pulse. Produced some very good articles when we at LATCC had our backs to the wall. Reading them now, nothing has changed.
Mind you, he had some good informants.
Mr G.
Aviation correspondant on the Observer 1985-89ish.
Now he was a hack who had his finger on the pulse. Produced some very good articles when we at LATCC had our backs to the wall. Reading them now, nothing has changed.
Mind you, he had some good informants.
Mr G.
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BTW, there are five official ICAO (ATC) Languages:
English
French
Spanish
Russian
Chinese
Going back to the original post and the posting by Numpo-Nigit it seems that the current ATC system cannot handle more traffic without a fundamental change. I thought 600 mil quit is fundamental enough or is it (again) a political back-firing investment? The Sunday times article does NOT point to the individual controllers who seem to save the day (365/year) but more to the current politics.
With my little international experience I can say that I need to talk to ATC in Spanish sometimes (esp. central/south America). And Spanish is not my native language. I could be totally frustrated but IMHO that's part of your job as a pilot. I'd rather accept this challange than listening to my complaining and whining captains all the time ("This is ridicilous, blablabla"). And when we got a trip overseas and to Canada I talk to them in French. Is it fair compared to a single-language speaker (english)? Certainly not! Unsafer? Well, we then should open another thread.
I understand you UK pilots excitment when you first talk to your home ATC. I feel the same way when I contact ...
English
French
Spanish
Russian
Chinese
Going back to the original post and the posting by Numpo-Nigit it seems that the current ATC system cannot handle more traffic without a fundamental change. I thought 600 mil quit is fundamental enough or is it (again) a political back-firing investment? The Sunday times article does NOT point to the individual controllers who seem to save the day (365/year) but more to the current politics.
With my little international experience I can say that I need to talk to ATC in Spanish sometimes (esp. central/south America). And Spanish is not my native language. I could be totally frustrated but IMHO that's part of your job as a pilot. I'd rather accept this challange than listening to my complaining and whining captains all the time ("This is ridicilous, blablabla"). And when we got a trip overseas and to Canada I talk to them in French. Is it fair compared to a single-language speaker (english)? Certainly not! Unsafer? Well, we then should open another thread.
I understand you UK pilots excitment when you first talk to your home ATC. I feel the same way when I contact ...
Last edited by Squawk7777; 27th Aug 2002 at 14:17.
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Again some interesting replies. I was never seeking to have other ATCOs denegrated and assume that they do their best in the circumstances and with the management and equipment supplied.
An interesting point about an overhaul of the airspace - long overdue but not an explanation why we are working less traffic at Swanwick per ATCO than we did at LATCC.
Why did our management say to the Transport Select Committee that we had a surplus of ATCOs when we are so short only months afterwards.
Why were the predictions of increased traffic handling maintained right up to the O date and beyond ?
Why are we regularly dumping traffic on Manchester and TC and they cope with all the extra traffic but we can hardly cope with the reduced levels.
You guys get all the c**p. Slot delays and level capped - can't do much for your company profitibility. In the meantime we divert trans Atlantic traffic out of UK airspace to protect ourselves and lose the highest income flights !!!
I don't know anyone in ATC who doesn't love Gwyneth Dunwoody. As Chair of the Transport Select Committee she has fought our case against NATS / CAA / Governments for years. Maybe it is time to have a fresh look at this and have Gwyneth and all the major players give evidence about what has happened and what needs to happen in the future to improve things .... How do you call for a Royal Commission ?
An interesting point about an overhaul of the airspace - long overdue but not an explanation why we are working less traffic at Swanwick per ATCO than we did at LATCC.
Why did our management say to the Transport Select Committee that we had a surplus of ATCOs when we are so short only months afterwards.
Why were the predictions of increased traffic handling maintained right up to the O date and beyond ?
Why are we regularly dumping traffic on Manchester and TC and they cope with all the extra traffic but we can hardly cope with the reduced levels.
You guys get all the c**p. Slot delays and level capped - can't do much for your company profitibility. In the meantime we divert trans Atlantic traffic out of UK airspace to protect ourselves and lose the highest income flights !!!
I don't know anyone in ATC who doesn't love Gwyneth Dunwoody. As Chair of the Transport Select Committee she has fought our case against NATS / CAA / Governments for years. Maybe it is time to have a fresh look at this and have Gwyneth and all the major players give evidence about what has happened and what needs to happen in the future to improve things .... How do you call for a Royal Commission ?
