Air France B777 control issues landing CDG
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Capt Kremin, Could you clarify what you mean by the wrong runway/approach selected? They called established on 26L and were cleared to land on 26L. There didn't seem to be any confusion from either the Crew or ATC as far as the runway was concerned, so I'm just wondering what sort of error you think they made?
Last edited by sorvad; 9th Apr 2022 at 12:07.
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Looking at the YouTube video again I see that ATC instructed then to stop approach at 1500’ (1100’ AGL), and they were already having issues at that point.
But looking at the ADSB data it appears that the go around commenced (very close to 1000’ AGL) and THEN the deviation occurred.
But looking at the ADSB data it appears that the go around commenced (very close to 1000’ AGL) and THEN the deviation occurred.
Last edited by wheels up; 9th Apr 2022 at 07:42.
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Originally Posted by wheels up
Looking at the YouTube video again I see that ATC instructed then to stop approach at 1500’ (1100’ AGL), and they were already having issues at that point.
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Originally Posted by airseb
approach called a departing traffic from 26R to stop climb at 1500’. So no.
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Originally Posted by wheels up
Ah ok, it was for another AF aircraft - they do say stop approach though
Last edited by Squawk_ident; 9th Apr 2022 at 10:30. Reason: corrected AF flight number
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Interesting article in the on-line "Airjournal"" yesterday 08APR. This article itself refers to another article from the French daily newspaper "La Tribune" which is unfortunately for subscribers only.
https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-04-0...e-5234978.html
I provide here-below a translation in English from an on-line translator though.
"
The first analyzes of the incident on Monday involving a Boeing 777-300ER from the airline Air France would show that the plane is not in question, the go-around not having been done according to the procedure, with the key confusion in the cockpit. Causing a reaction from the BEA, which recalls that the investigation is still ongoing.
The daily La Tribune explained on Thursday that it had had access to preliminary information sent by Boeing to the French national company, following the incident during flight AF011 on April 5, 2022, between New York-JFK airport and its base in Paris- CDG: the 777-300ER (F-GSQJ) was on final approach when the pilots reported a problem, performed a go-around before landing without any further problems. In an audio recording posted online, one of the pilots explained that the device “did almost anything”.
A version disputed by the daily, which cites 'several sources' having had access to the QAR (quick access recorder), recording for the aircraft manufacturer and the airline more or less the same data as the two 'black boxes' (FDR for flight data, CVR for cockpit conversations, access to which is reserved for investigators). This preliminary data would show that the 777 encountered “no flight control malfunctions”; Boeing reportedly told Air France that 'the reference aircraft responded appropriately to commands from the flight crew.'
This leads to the following assumption according to La Tribune: the pilots 'misinterpreted a situation and were not coordinated'. During the manual pilot descent, 'under a high stress factor after a tiring flight from New York and in difficult weather conditions', what could be a simple unstabilized approach would have been mishandled, 'with confusions on the distribution and performance of tasks. The daily cites in particular the TO/GA (take off-go around) switch which would have been activated four times.
Having opened an investigation for 'serious incident', the Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) reacted yesterday, via a message on social networks: 'Information published in the press: @BEA_Aero recalls that the flight data is still being analyzed / A communication will be made when we have a global understanding of the event”.
Remember that flight AF011 ended well and did not “close to crash” as heard elsewhere. And that each investigation leads to debates on the responsibility of the plane or the pilots, debates which end (in general) with the results of the investigation. Afterwards, it is sometimes up to the courts to sort it out, as in the case of Air France flight AF447…"
https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-04-0...e-5234978.html
I provide here-below a translation in English from an on-line translator though.
"
The first analyzes of the incident on Monday involving a Boeing 777-300ER from the airline Air France would show that the plane is not in question, the go-around not having been done according to the procedure, with the key confusion in the cockpit. Causing a reaction from the BEA, which recalls that the investigation is still ongoing.
The daily La Tribune explained on Thursday that it had had access to preliminary information sent by Boeing to the French national company, following the incident during flight AF011 on April 5, 2022, between New York-JFK airport and its base in Paris- CDG: the 777-300ER (F-GSQJ) was on final approach when the pilots reported a problem, performed a go-around before landing without any further problems. In an audio recording posted online, one of the pilots explained that the device “did almost anything”.
A version disputed by the daily, which cites 'several sources' having had access to the QAR (quick access recorder), recording for the aircraft manufacturer and the airline more or less the same data as the two 'black boxes' (FDR for flight data, CVR for cockpit conversations, access to which is reserved for investigators). This preliminary data would show that the 777 encountered “no flight control malfunctions”; Boeing reportedly told Air France that 'the reference aircraft responded appropriately to commands from the flight crew.'
This leads to the following assumption according to La Tribune: the pilots 'misinterpreted a situation and were not coordinated'. During the manual pilot descent, 'under a high stress factor after a tiring flight from New York and in difficult weather conditions', what could be a simple unstabilized approach would have been mishandled, 'with confusions on the distribution and performance of tasks. The daily cites in particular the TO/GA (take off-go around) switch which would have been activated four times.
Having opened an investigation for 'serious incident', the Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) reacted yesterday, via a message on social networks: 'Information published in the press: @BEA_Aero recalls that the flight data is still being analyzed / A communication will be made when we have a global understanding of the event”.
Remember that flight AF011 ended well and did not “close to crash” as heard elsewhere. And that each investigation leads to debates on the responsibility of the plane or the pilots, debates which end (in general) with the results of the investigation. Afterwards, it is sometimes up to the courts to sort it out, as in the case of Air France flight AF447…"
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Originally Posted by Squawk_ident
Interesting article in the on-line "Airjournal"" yesterday 08APR. This article itself refers to another article from the French daily newspaper "La Tribune" which is unfortunately for subscribers only.
https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-04-0...e-5234978.html
I provide here-below a translation in English from an on-line translator though.
"
The first analyzes of the incident on Monday involving a Boeing 777-300ER from the airline Air France would show that the plane is not in question, the go-around not having been done according to the procedure, with the key confusion in the cockpit. Causing a reaction from the BEA, which recalls that the investigation is still ongoing.
The daily La Tribune explained on Thursday that it had had access to preliminary information sent by Boeing to the French national company, following the incident during flight AF011 on April 5, 2022, between New York-JFK airport and its base in Paris- CDG: the 777-300ER (F-GSQJ) was on final approach when the pilots reported a problem, performed a go-around before landing without any further problems. In an audio recording posted online, one of the pilots explained that the device “did almost anything”.
A version disputed by the daily, which cites 'several sources' having had access to the QAR (quick access recorder), recording for the aircraft manufacturer and the airline more or less the same data as the two 'black boxes' (FDR for flight data, CVR for cockpit conversations, access to which is reserved for investigators). This preliminary data would show that the 777 encountered “no flight control malfunctions”; Boeing reportedly told Air France that 'the reference aircraft responded appropriately to commands from the flight crew.'
This leads to the following assumption according to La Tribune: the pilots 'misinterpreted a situation and were not coordinated'. During the manual pilot descent, 'under a high stress factor after a tiring flight from New York and in difficult weather conditions', what could be a simple unstabilized approach would have been mishandled, 'with confusions on the distribution and performance of tasks. The daily cites in particular the TO/GA (take off-go around) switch which would have been activated four times.
Having opened an investigation for 'serious incident', the Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) reacted yesterday, via a message on social networks: 'Information published in the press: @BEA_Aero recalls that the flight data is still being analyzed / A communication will be made when we have a global understanding of the event”.
Remember that flight AF011 ended well and did not “close to crash” as heard elsewhere. And that each investigation leads to debates on the responsibility of the plane or the pilots, debates which end (in general) with the results of the investigation. Afterwards, it is sometimes up to the courts to sort it out, as in the case of Air France flight AF447…"
https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-04-0...e-5234978.html
I provide here-below a translation in English from an on-line translator though.
"
The first analyzes of the incident on Monday involving a Boeing 777-300ER from the airline Air France would show that the plane is not in question, the go-around not having been done according to the procedure, with the key confusion in the cockpit. Causing a reaction from the BEA, which recalls that the investigation is still ongoing.
The daily La Tribune explained on Thursday that it had had access to preliminary information sent by Boeing to the French national company, following the incident during flight AF011 on April 5, 2022, between New York-JFK airport and its base in Paris- CDG: the 777-300ER (F-GSQJ) was on final approach when the pilots reported a problem, performed a go-around before landing without any further problems. In an audio recording posted online, one of the pilots explained that the device “did almost anything”.
A version disputed by the daily, which cites 'several sources' having had access to the QAR (quick access recorder), recording for the aircraft manufacturer and the airline more or less the same data as the two 'black boxes' (FDR for flight data, CVR for cockpit conversations, access to which is reserved for investigators). This preliminary data would show that the 777 encountered “no flight control malfunctions”; Boeing reportedly told Air France that 'the reference aircraft responded appropriately to commands from the flight crew.'
This leads to the following assumption according to La Tribune: the pilots 'misinterpreted a situation and were not coordinated'. During the manual pilot descent, 'under a high stress factor after a tiring flight from New York and in difficult weather conditions', what could be a simple unstabilized approach would have been mishandled, 'with confusions on the distribution and performance of tasks. The daily cites in particular the TO/GA (take off-go around) switch which would have been activated four times.
Having opened an investigation for 'serious incident', the Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) reacted yesterday, via a message on social networks: 'Information published in the press: @BEA_Aero recalls that the flight data is still being analyzed / A communication will be made when we have a global understanding of the event”.
Remember that flight AF011 ended well and did not “close to crash” as heard elsewhere. And that each investigation leads to debates on the responsibility of the plane or the pilots, debates which end (in general) with the results of the investigation. Afterwards, it is sometimes up to the courts to sort it out, as in the case of Air France flight AF447…"
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Can you post the original French version please?
Here again...
https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-04-0...e-5234978.html
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The Youtube/Airlive link is truncated but is originally from Liveatc I presume. Here is the whole recording of the ATC from LFPG TOWER 120.900 for the appropriate 30 minutes window available from LiveATC.:120.9 is the TWR frequency for the south doublet. 119.25 for the north one.
https://archive.liveatc.net/lfpg/LFP...2022-0730Z.mp3
Please set the recording time at +18'35"/40" to have the whole uncut recording. Unfortunately AFR011 dialogue is in French but you almost have already the translation.
The dialogue with AFR HW is interesting because they did not reply to the first order to stop climb at 1500 at once. They apologised after because it was an "instruction flight"
https://archive.liveatc.net/lfpg/LFP...2022-0730Z.mp3
Please set the recording time at +18'35"/40" to have the whole uncut recording. Unfortunately AFR011 dialogue is in French but you almost have already the translation.
The dialogue with AFR HW is interesting because they did not reply to the first order to stop climb at 1500 at once. They apologised after because it was an "instruction flight"
How many times, I wonder, has every Boeing pilot been told, "lis tes putains de FMA!" every time you make a mode change.
And when you do, how often does it instantly reveal the error of your ways?
Read your chuffing FMAs and "What's it doing now?" becomes redundant.
And when you do, how often does it instantly reveal the error of your ways?
Read your chuffing FMAs and "What's it doing now?" becomes redundant.
Originally Posted by Propellerhead
Confusion caused by the aircraft turning towards an active wpt behind them seems increasingly likely when they pressed toga.
It's the next button press that might have caused problems/confusion in the past..
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Originally Posted by sorvad
LNAV automatically engages above 50ft on a normal Go around Wiggy.
Air France 777’s might be in a different mod state however.
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Oh, my apologies to you Wiggy and zzz, I didn't know that. It does on all the 777's I've flown. Yes THR TOGA TOGA initially but the roll mode then automatically changes to LNAV without having to select it.
Last edited by sorvad; 12th Apr 2022 at 16:24.
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Originally Posted by Propellerhead
Confusion caused by the aircraft turning towards an active wpt behind them seems increasingly likely when they pressed toga.
Very common problem both in the sim and the real world and makes for an exceedingly untidy go-around.
If you are blessed to be 777 pilot, you have one sure fire defense: when the EGPWS calls "one thousand" during the approach, glance inside at the top right corner of the ND and ensure that the waypoint that is displayed there is a waypoint which is in front of you. If it is not a waypoint in front of you any go-around is going to be highly entertaining.
