Russian Airlines still flying

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

The relationship between FIR boundaries and countries' national airspace is approximate, to say the least. It's the latter that counts in this instance.

Absolutely. FIR boundaries are not "National" above international waters, it is not sovereign airspace it is just delegated airspace by ICAO for ATC purposes.

[Pilot DAR]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/14/...ed-planes.html

As mentioned, it appears that Russian airlines will continue to use the planes domestically, and issue their own national [only] flight authorities for the airplanes. The challenge will be that if the airplanes are ever recovered to their western owners, their C of A's will be totally invalid, and the Russian operation outside of the normal C of A authority will render the airworthiness status of the airplanes very unknown. Inspecting and re validating them for western C of A's again will be an immense task, if they're even airworthy at all!

[Geriaviator]

Just as interesting is the ownership question: as many if not most of these aircraft are leased, many via Ireland, the financiers seem likely to take a mighty hit. As others have said, Boeing and Airbus are not providing parts, so who's going to re-certify or insure an aircraft possibly containing non-original components?

[ATC Watcher]

who's going to re-certify or insure an aircraft possibly containing non-original components?

The State for both , just like in Iran , as long as you fly inside your own country , your own State rules apply. If they want to fly outside their borders long haul they might have to reactivate the old IL86 fleet ,which as far as I know is the only recent Russian aircraft with no Western components,(outside of the even older T154M and IL76...)
What is frustrating is that Rosaviatsiya (their CAA) was getting better and better the last years, taking the lead in improving Safety, modernizing ATC to top standards ( better than in the US ) , all this stopped in their tracks.
Aeroflot and S7 may shortly cease to exist in their current form , hardly thinkable for the Russian economy, so a solution to the conflict and return to some for of normality in the not too distant future is the only way out for them. Hoping someone higher up realizes this.

[Liffy 1M]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

The State for both , just like in Iran , as long as you fly inside your own country , your own State rules apply. If they want to fly outside their borders long haul they might have to reactivate the old IL86 fleet ,which as far as I know is the only recent Russian aircraft with no Western components,(outside of the even older T154M and IL76...)
What is frustrating is that Rosaviatsiya (their CAA) was getting better and better the last years, taking the lead in improving Safety, modernizing ATC to top standards ( better than in the US ) , all this stopped in their tracks.
Aeroflot and S7 may shortly cease to exist in their current form , hardly thinkable for the Russian economy, so a solution to the conflict and return to some for of normality in the not too distant future is the only way out for them. Hoping someone higher up realizes this.

The Il-86 was withdrawn from use in the early 2000s and I imagine most have been scrapped by now. Very few Tu-154s remain active, as far as I know, and the potential to reactivate such types in any numbers must be slim to none.

[WillowRun 6-3]

I know this isn't a forum for Public International Air Law, or policy or diplomacy, but . . .
the next ICAO Triennial Assembly convenes this autumn, in Montreal. After MH17.... then the air piracy of Ryan Air 4978 by Belarus..... and with the - sorry, can't locate a better term in my SLF/attorney lexicon - de-internationalizing of the Russian aviation sector, can the Member State be treated by ICAO as if the Assembly will be business as usual?

Not strictly as a sanction for armed aggression, for provoking on purpose massive displacement of civilians, for alleged deliberate infliction of civilian casualties, though those each would be good reasons. I'm wondering about the..... the spectacle of a State that took a fire axe to international rules and norms of civil aviation, but still having the privilege that attends to being a leading participant of ICAO.

Is it time to keep the official language and find a way to sideline or even suspend the State? (Yes, I'm hortified by Russia's War Movie enough to ask this.)

[PAX_Britannica]

Originally Posted by Liffy 1M

The Il-86 was withdrawn from use in the early 2000s and I imagine most have been scrapped by now. Very few Tu-154s remain active, as far as I know, and the potential to reactivate such types in any numbers must be slim to none.

Rostec is talking about restarting/ramping up production of Tu-204 and Il-96. I guess they expect to be a pariah state for some years.


https://www-interfax-ru.translate.go...to&_x_tr_tl=en

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by PAX_Britannica

Rostec is talking about restarting/ramping up production of Tu-204 and Il-96. I guess they expect to be a pariah state for some years.

]I thought the IL96 and Ty204/214 production stopped after only 30 or so and in both cases and only 15 or so are still flying nearly all for the Russian Government. ( source Wikipedia) And if my memory is correct the Ty201/214 has western avionics, but OK ,that can ne changed if the build new aircraft. But than mean years to bridge the gap. As to the long term pariah State : is Russia seriously considering not flying internationally for many years and turning into a very large North Korea ?

[250 kts]

P4-BDL which is reputedly Abramovich's B787 was doing some very strange things back in December according to FR24 history. It looks like it's settled in Dubai at present.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Considering how long the 737 MEL list is I think you could fly one for quite awhile with essentially no component replacement, if you had a high risk tolerance. That and canibalizing a portion of the fleet for show stopper parts may mean internal route networks will be maintained for longer than many are projecting, thereby keeping the illusion that everything is fine.

[AN2 Driver]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

]. As to the long term pariah State : is Russia seriously considering not flying internationally for many years and turning into a very large North Korea ?

Don't forget they have a huge territory of their own to cover plus some other states which still allow them in and also have not cancelled their airworthiness certificates. So first of all they will need to assure domestic travel which they appear to be doing. And before the end of the cold war the situation was pretty much like that, they only had Soviet airliners and flew them all over the world. Right now they will be restricted to fly them within their borders and whoever accepts them, but they will continue flying those.

I am not sure how many TU154's e.t.c. have actually been scrapped or are simply in "storage" of some form. Same goes for IL86's. Reactivating them may take some time but should be possible.

[601]

Considering how long the 737 MEL list is I think you could fly one for quite awhile with essentially no component replacement, if you had a high risk tolerance.

It may have a long list of individual items on the MEL, but when you start to get multiple failed items, that list can reduce in scope pretty darn quick and you can find your self on the ground with only a couple of failures .

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by 601

It may have a long list of individual items on the MEL, but when you start to get multiple failed items, that list can reduce in scope pretty darn quick and you can find your self on the ground with only a couple of failures .

The regulator approves the MEL. Since the airplane can now be registered in Russia, Rosaviatsiya would be the approving authority and I imagine would be under a lot of pressure to be "creative" when it comes to authorizing MEL deviations .....

[brak]

Originally Posted by AN2 Driver

Don't forget they have a huge territory of their own to cover plus some other states which still allow them in and also have not cancelled their airworthiness certificates. So first of all they will need to assure domestic travel which they appear to be doing. And before the end of the cold war the situation was pretty much like that, they only had Soviet airliners and flew them all over the world. Right now they will be restricted to fly them within their borders and whoever accepts them, but they will continue flying those.

I am not sure how many TU154's e.t.c. have actually been scrapped or are simply in "storage" of some form. Same goes for IL86's. Reactivating them may take some time but should be possible.

During the times of USSR there was no commercial airlines there. It was all state aviation. So the issue of cost never came into play (and those TU154s were not quite as far behind in terms of "state of the art"). Even if they could be dug up and revived (which I seriously doubt), flying those things would be prohibitively expensive. Unless, of course, Russian government scraps whatever clepto-capitalism they've built and just goes full on government ran economy (but I doubt that). So no, they will not be flying any of the old Soviet junk. Something like the current situation in Iran is more likely.

[ATC Watcher]

It would seem Aeroflot is still flying Internationally , especially Turkey, UAE, Egypt , Serbia , India, Sri Lanka, etc.. but using Russian owned aircraft to avoid repossession, although it is doubtful some of those countries would actually enforce impounding Russian aircraft. .
According Eurocontrol Network manager , Turkey is now quite heavily used by Russian carriers. and Turkish airlines not only still flies to Moscow, but has increased its number of flights there . So much for NATO sanctions..

[Less Hair]

EU sanctions.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

EU sanctions.

Your are right. NATO just gives the military support to Ukraine. That ambiguity I wanted to highlight, but sanctions themselves indeed are not coming from NATO.

[EDLB]

I thought the leased airplanes where due today March 28th. Any action with returned planes to the lessors so far?

[Nowhere near row 1]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

NATO just gives the military support to Ukraine.

Individual countries, give support to various degree. NATO does not. Sorry to split hairs, but this is important.

[Spunky Monkey]

Would it be possible for these Russian registered aircraft to have their maintenance carried out down route in say Egypt by a third party maintenance company?
Or even Air Egypt? (Just picking a name out of the hat).
Would Boeing be able to tell that there had been an increase in inventory usage?
Would there be repercussions for the third party, like having their approved maintenance removed?
Leaving aside the question of being paid, it could certainly circumnavigate the sanctions and adding a pallet or two of parts every round trip could keep the aircraft flying almost indefinitely (while stripping parts from the leased aircraft).