Dubai near disaster..?
Originally Posted by megan
We know from experience that doesn't always work well.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
and " line up and wait".
Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
It's one of the oldest challenges in aviation. You have to learn to associate an action with every important clearance. A clearance can be a trigger to write something or select something. Use a pen (remember those?). I personally use the MCDU scratchpad. "Taxi A, B, C1 to and hold short of 27L" becomes A/B/C1//27L. When I'm lining up, I will ad a /LU. Takeoff clearance is definitely the selection of the "Takeoff" light on Airbus. On Boeing, I don't know what you might use, but for gods sake, choose one!
however the problem might arrive if a company SOP is landing lights on for line up, and they have a punitive safety policy and you never know if there’s a trainer or management pilot opposite you at the other intersection…. No idea if that applies to EK though, although the number of times I’ve been blinded by their landing lights perhaps it does.
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In my time it was : Strobes on at line up and Landing lights on when cleared for take off.
Used to cross 09R/27L at Heathrow quite often and I don't recall seeing landing lights dazzeling us from the next one lined up for take off.
Used to cross 09R/27L at Heathrow quite often and I don't recall seeing landing lights dazzeling us from the next one lined up for take off.
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No amount of fiddling with landing lights is going to stop an accidental take-off without clearance. I think the status lights are a good start to solving the problem.
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
It's one of the oldest challenges in aviation. You have to learn to associate an action with every important clearance. A clearance can be a trigger to write something or select something. Use a pen (remember those?). I personally use the MCDU scratchpad. "Taxi A, B, C1 to and hold short of 27L" becomes A/B/C1//27L. When I'm lining up, I will ad a /LU. Takeoff clearance is definitely the selection of the "Takeoff" light on Airbus. On Boeing, I don't know what you might use, but for gods sake, choose one!
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AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
Originally Posted by parkfell
If as appears the case the CVR was overwritten, does software exist
to ‘dig deep’ & recover more than the last current 2 hours ?
to ‘dig deep’ & recover more than the last current 2 hours ?
As real bonus, we still have all flight deck occupants around to tell their side of the incident.
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Apologies haven’t read all the comments. Could it have been as simple as EK524 lined up. Then EK568 was given clearance to cross which EK524 took as theirs? They were in position expecting EK5.., “heard it” and went. C/S confusion is a nightmare around DXB.
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Originally Posted by 3Greens
3Greens , 13th Jan 2022 18:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I would have thought that the runway status lights that they have in the USA would be very effective to prevent this kind of event. Should be mandatory throughout the world.
They can be useful yes, but not a great deal of use in the glaring Middle East sunlight to be honest in the middle of the day
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I would have thought that the runway status lights that they have in the USA would be very effective to prevent this kind of event. Should be mandatory throughout the world.
They can be useful yes, but not a great deal of use in the glaring Middle East sunlight to be honest in the middle of the day
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Originally Posted by PFD
Hi. I thought CVR recording time had gone up to 10 hours now? plus they have to have their own power supply. Perhaps you don't have to retrofit it. i would have thought though, that a failure to obtain Takeoff clearance, would necessitate the company pulling the CVR immediately for analysis, to clear or otherwise the pilots.
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Originally Posted by Fog Ducker
AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
The strobe lights should have been visible to the departing crew, and also as an aircraft the size of a 777 crosses you lose sight of a large number of runway and centreline lights.
Many possible reasons, mixed lang/culture flight deck, fatigue, press on mindset, take off clearance already received on previous flights, crossing clearance on 30L confusing the brain etc but there was two guys up front so I cannot understand why it wasn't questioned and confirmed its what crews have been trained to do, if there is doubt/there is no doubt ask!
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Originally Posted by Fog Ducker
AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.
In my first 33 years of professional flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.
Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.
I did not like doing this because it is wrong.
I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
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Originally Posted by mahogany bob
COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS
I have always thought that a useful ( cheap) aid would be a training tape with transcripts of ATC from around the world which one could listen to and mug up on before going to a new environment in order to get used to accents etc.
Food for thought??
I have always thought that a useful ( cheap) aid would be a training tape with transcripts of ATC from around the world which one could listen to and mug up on before going to a new environment in order to get used to accents etc.
Food for thought??
These can be accessed at https://cfapps.icao.int/RSSTA/ and give an overview of different English Language Proficiency Levels.
It may assist in understanding the different regional accents and Language Proficiency Levels.
After Tenerife, changing the R/T and training were solutions, not technology
