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B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii

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B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii

Old 6th Jul 2021, 20:00
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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ATC Watcher

Variations on "low fuel" and "priority" are IMHO a disturbingly grey area, at least in the USA. You can declare all kinds of variations on low fuel, but as far as I know unless you actually call a Mayday/Emergency you may or may not get to the front of the line.
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Old 6th Jul 2021, 22:02
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Now that Sully has been appointed to a senior role at the ICAO it will be interesting to see his take on all this.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 00:57
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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B-757

Curiously, the FAA AIM doesn’t say that.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 01:37
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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biscuit74

They weren't THAT far away, I used to fly out of HNL and where they were was well within radio range. IMHO the issue was one person with 4 radios. I had that a few times late night at Orlando being yelled at to stay clear of the airspace when I was on the ramp trying to get a clearance
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 06:09
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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island_airphoto

Obviously the pilots thought the plane could do it no problem too, I mean delaying the return when they did to take care of checklist items or whatever, would not be happening if they thought they were going to struggle to make it back, you would think.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 09:47
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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island_airphoto

The Avianca 707 crash at New York if memory serves, was just one such situation. Again training had an influence on crew language
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 13:30
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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For a long time the FAA standard was to say “declaring an emergency.” The thought was if you have English speaking pilots talking to English speaking controllers why use a French word to declare an emergency. In the last few years the FAA has gotten on board with saying Mayday but old habits die hard. I’ve been trying to find when the FAA added Mayday to the vocabulary but haven’t been able to find when that officially happened. Even the current guidance posted above starts out with saying “state the nature of the difficulty” before admitting “Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.”
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 13:33
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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ATC Watcher [ 139 ]

In that previous thread (eight years ago) I mentioned, many posters criticizing the U.S. pounded the fact the U.S. had not filed "differences" with ICAO. 'Wouldn't that just be a pointless formality?' some others responded. Have to wonder what comprehensive survey might have been compiled about the role of R/T issues in significant accidents.... or at least a survey of the most widely recognized accidents where it was a factor. (I don't recall anyone pointing to such a survey July eight years gone.)

To the extent ICAO did take action in the early 1990s, it doesn't seem like the action advanced the goal of standardization very much -- or if it did, the subject hardly gets the level of attention of (for example) "Sustainable Development Goals" or emissions reduction.

[ WHBM ] With regard to the nomination of Capt. Sullenberger, nomination was referred to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee as of June 23 because the position of Permanent Representative to the ICAO Council carries the rank of Ambassador and thus Senate confirmation is required. (An anomaly with regard to Senate confirmation occurred during the last part of the prior administration when the White House appointed a Permanent Representative but did not nominate the individual for Ambassadorial rank.) Confirmation hearings for "Sully" are not yet scheduled, at least per the Senate Foreign Relations Committee webpage as I write this.

This could be (and IMHO very likely will be) relevant during the eventual confirmation hearings. When he submitted a written statement (as reported in July 2019) with regard to the nomination of Mr. Dickson to be FAA Administrator, Capt. Sullenberger stated the following: “The nominee, while a senior executive at Delta Air Lines, either caused or allowed a whistleblower with validated safety concerns to be retaliated against.” If you were an advisor or consultant to a member of Senate Foreign Relations, wouldn't the position of the United States before ICAO, as well as the rest of the global civil aviation community of organizations, about whistleblower protections be a subject matter area you would want to hear discussed, on the record?
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 14:34
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_1.html

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...r/7110.65Y.pdf chapter 10
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 15:13
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MarkerInbound

Mayday has been standard for marine radio use since forever. I would bet that about 90% of the people in the USA who have ever called Mayday don't even know it is derived from French.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 15:15
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NutLoose

For the lazy among us:NOTE-

A pilot who encounters a DISTRESS condition may declare an emergency by beginning the initial communication with the word MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. For an URGENCY condition, the word PAN-PAN may be used in the same manner.
  1. If the words MAYDAY or PAN-PAN are not used, and there is doubt that a situation constitutes an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as though it is an emergency.

I learned Mayday at flight school, but knew it anyway from boats. There was one instructor who famously made students actually say Mayday doing practice engine outs until bitch-slapped by the FAA.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 18:10
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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As an USAF pilot, we were taught in an emergency situation the verbiage they expected to hear was “call sign..declaring an emergency” in my yearly recurrent training on the 767 we “declare an emergency” It May very well be a carryover from the military
That big flying school in Pensacola taught its students to use Mayday and Pan as appropriate, and that was in 1967.

Can anyone cite an FAA source that said just saying "emergency" was kosher.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 19:12
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Meanwhile.........................anyone know why it quit?
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 19:23
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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AIM (FAA) says:
c.
The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN−PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
d.
Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN−PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 19:46
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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There are parallels with Kegworth (UK BMI 734 with CFM 56). They had a fire on one engine, shut down the other. In doing so the autothrottle disengaged and the bad engine (only one now running) went on for a bit longer at reduced power before failing on final.
Different time, different engine but both 737 engine failure where the remaining engine ran hot and then failed.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 20:10
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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island_airphoto

I think you would be safe in extending your bet to cover the rest of the world too.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 20:27
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Really? Even with my rudimentary school boy French I have always known that Mayday= m'aidez="help me".

But what if I don't want help, or if there is nothing anyone can do to help. I just want to let ATC know I'm going to ignore any of their instructions and please shut up and let me sort out the problem as best I can. When landing out in a glider I always announced position and intentions then turned the radio off. There was nothing anyone could do to help.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 21:03
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Mayday is not just to get help, it is to give you a get out of jail free card to do what you need to do. Landing a glider in some random spot doesn't really qualify unless you think there are people on the ground that can here you and get out of the way.
Example - you leave KBWI and your airplane catches on fire. You call "Mayday, I have a fire, returning to the field" and then you ignore the radio. It is the BWI tower's job to get everyone out of your way from then on. It doesn't matter if they can help you directly, they can get everyone else the **** out of the way.
Real life example: I had an engine die in low IFR over Pax NAS. I called in the Mayday and while working on a restart the Pax River controllers, presumably trying to keep the civilian airplane away from their expensive Navy planes, was trying to vector me to a nearby rural airport with one somewhat short runway and no precision approach, no fire trucks, and no on-field navaid (pre GPS days). I told Pax River to bite me more or less, I was landing there unless they wanted to run out and turn the VOR off. Whether they wanted to help or be annoying, I had the power at that point. Then we got the engine going and left
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 03:13
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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R/T police

Can't believe that after 8 pages of this thread, we're still talking about their R/T procedures. I suggest those interested in discussing Mayday vs Emergency , FAA vs ICAO , DOC 4444 procedures , 121.50 decorum and cat calls etc please start a thread elsewhere . Yes, maybe R/T will have a mention in the investigation report but I think we've beaten that dog to death here.

I'd really like to know how both engines overheated on this aircraft and what are the possible causes , what I've read so far is fuel contamination , biocide & fuel storage problems , maintenance errors etc. Have there been previous instances of rapid overheat and failure of engines after takeoff and what should we be looking out for ?

Can we move this thread in that direction please ?
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 04:33
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Hazy one in the distant past concerning oil loss after faulty maintenance on both engines..possibly a 1-11.
There was a 737 of BMA that lost most of its oil after faulty installation of boroscope blanking plates caused loss of 90% of oil and a TriStar had a double engine problem caused by oil seals.
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